Evus Training verses others.

[Steady Foot]

Recently I have read some info that Evus may give more than 1 to 1 ratio in ranks. More like 1:25 to 1 or 125%.

Is this true and does anybody know for sure what he trains and the percentages?

Are there other trainers for fighters like Evus?

Also. It is interesting to see who is in this forum at 3:50 EST. [:)]

[Hippocrates]

You may want to try here:

http://bor.clanlords.com/fighter/evus.html

Thanks,
Hippocrates

[Steady Foot]

Ok I have copied the info on your link Hippocrates.

>Evus teaches: (I'm mostly guessing)
>70% Swengus
> 35% Balthus
> 35% Regia
>23% Histia
>15% Atkus
>15% Darkus (very unsure of this one)
>5% Detha (only know that it is less Detha than Darkus)


>Bodrus teaches: (roughly)
>50% Swengus
>30% Atkus
>20% Histia
>15% Darkus
>10% Detha

If both Bodrus and Evus give 125% why do most people avoid Bodrus. It seems to me that both give a pretty decent mix of ranks.

Is this true the 125%?

[Hippocrates]

Well, fighters tend to avoid Bodrus because they have specific fighter trainers, like Balthus, Swengus, Regia, ect. Plus they have Evus if they want a mix of trainings. I'm sure some fighters train with Bodrus, though, just like a healer would train with Spiritus over Eva. Healers and Mystics avoid too much Bodrus because it reduces your swings the more you train it. Unlike fighters, healers and mystics don't have a trainer available to compensate for this. I've heard that more than 50 trainings for healers and mystics can cause problems.

Hippocrates

[Althus]

Bor's numbers are screwy, don't believe them. Plus they're at least a year and a half old. Those might have been accurate just slightly post-rip, but no longer. Evus definitely does give a bigger bonus than Bodrus, and isn't capped, so he's definitely a better deal

[Steady Foot]

Thanks, Gentlemen for your answer.

So Evus really does give you 125% that is interesting.

I will stay away from Bor then.

Thanks again.

[Althus]

Actually, Evus gives you a 135% bonus and Bodrus a 125% bonus. His numbers for Bodrus actually sound right, but they may be slightly off.

The reason his numbers are outdated is because shortly after the ripture war, Evus was actually a way to gain swings, so 70:15:15 S/A/D sounds about right. That was soon changed, though, so that Evus slowly deteriorated swings. The current numbers are 60:25:10, I believe, but don't quote me on that.

[Steady Foot]

When you say reduce swings, is that because Atkus is increased as opposed to increasing Swengus?

What should the ratio be between Swengus and Atkus to maintain swings and the ability to hit increases?

[Konoko]

I believe Swengus has more balthus in it than regia (I don't know the actual percentages) so over time, you will have more balthus than regia.

With more balthus, you can essentially swing more because you have more balance for the swing to use.

But your balance recovery will not be as fast as say someone who mostly trains regia (like me! :) as opposed to swengus/balthus.


The following numbers are totally made up and are just an example:
Say you have 200 Atkus and 100 Darkus. Your swings are going to take quite a bit of balthus. The more atkus/darkus you have, the more balance a swing will take. You have trained 200 swengus and can take 3 swings.

But with increasing swengus, you will get more balthus but your balance regen will slowly decrease.


Someone please correct me if I totally don't know what I'm talking about and giving out bad info!

Konoko

[Konoko]

Whoops! Forgot to answer the ratio question.

What I've found I like to try and maintain is a 2 to 1 Regia to Atkus ratio. I hardly have any direct balthus ranks (maybe 12 to 20) and 50 direct evus ranks.

And then throw in about 40-50 darkus into the mix as well.

With my rapier with that ratio I'm in the 4+ swing area (although this has slipped a bit with the increasing atkus I've trained for the silly 3rd circle test)...

Konoko

[Steady Foot]

Ok so far nobody has mentioned anything about Detha. What does Detha do for a fighter?

I appreciate the input. I am learning a lot.[:)]

[Nunul]

Detha protects you from physical attacks.
Not sure of the slobber rate increase compared to other trainers.
As far as I know, it is no protection from fire, lightning, pies, BK or the antics of evil Spriggans (bunnies).

Not sure if it is a "permanent" defensive increase that is not effected by low balance issues.

-Nunul

[Althus]

WARNING, HARD FACTS ENCLOSED. DO NOT READ IF YOU ARE SARGON

;)

Ok, here's my explanation of Detha:

Detha is your basic defense, which you have when you've completely swung out, and thus is totally lagproof, which makes it a sort of "insurace". When a monster swings at you, it's accuracy (Atkus) is compared to your defense (detha + balthus).

d = detha + 0.85 * balance remaining

From that, we see that balthus ranks are approximately 85% as effective for defense as Detha, from what I've observed, but if you don't have much lag, they're much more versatile, since they can be converted into offensive swings. Since CL has a sort-of D&D type combat system, even somebody with huge ammounts of defense occasionally gets hit, and somebody with no defense occasionally gets whiffed. Think of that as rolls of 1 and 20 on the dice. There's nothing you can do to reduce luck hits, since there's always a 1:x chance that your opponent will get a good roll.

[Sargon]

By the time Steady Foot (or any other exile in the lands) would have done all these calculations (assuming there ARE any calculations in Althus' last post - I wouldn't know) the beasts will have killed him/her/it long ago..

Here's a rule of thumb which is _way_ more practical:

If it isn't a rat or a vermine, RUN!

See? It's that easy!

Sargon

[Lex]

I looked at Bor's page when I started and it only took me about 20 ranks of Evus to see that his numbers were off. I've told him to change his page but as he only clans now once every 4-5 months he probably lost interest in maintaining it.

Basically, Evus is not too bad, and the bonus is nice, but you don't see too many fighters who train only or even mostly from Evus. He is very light on Detha, and your swing rate slowly goes down. From what I've seen of most fighters (not saying that you should do what most fighters do) they tend to have less Histia and more Detha than an Evus fighter.

Not sure about the bonus in Swengus, but it seems to give about 0.6 Balthus and maybe 0.4 Regia. There may be a small bonus but no one really agrees on this (it's hard to track since other trainers give small amounts of balance and recovery). This doesn't mean Swengus is lacking in Regia (compared to Balthus), as they do very different things.

Detha is great for impulsive fighters who tend to swing whenever they can, for people who get lag a lot, or for people who like to hunt solo. You don't really need it to be a good fighter, but it's hard to pass circle tests (from 3rd on up) without at least some Detha.

Lex

[Lex]

Hunter has a good guide for new exiles located at:

http://hunter.clanlords.com/newcomers/index.html

It's not focused on hard numbers but has some good advice and lots of info for people new to ClanLord.

Lex

[Sargon]

Lex wrote:

Detha is great for impulsive fighters who tend to swing whenever they can, [...]

No need to tease Konoko whenever you can, Lex! =)

Sargon

[Lex]

Originally posted by Althus
d = detha + 0.85 * balance remaining

How did you come up with 0.85? It definitely seems to be in the right neighborhood but it must take a lot of testing to get to 2 digits :)

I used to think ot was 0.5 but after talking to a lot of higher level exiles I figured that was too low.

Lex

[Konoko]

Sargon! You just love to try and stir up trouble, don't ya? :)
Altir - you want to get into the pie business? Go and pie Sargon for me!

But I do agree I'm an impulsive fighter.
But I'm not really a detha fighter. Histia and Regia - that's the way I'm planning to focus once I pass third. This is what I was doing before focusing on 3rd and this is what I'll do after.

I have my detha at 150 I think and that's about it. That should be plenty for 3rd and I don't plan to get any more anytime soon.

Actually, it's nothing personal, but I find detha quite a boring trainer... :)

Konoko

[Sargon]

Wah! All I did was trying to help you cuz Lex was picking up on you... so much for trying to be helpful :(((

Sargon

[Kiriel]

Evus isn't terribly popular as the only trainer, but I think it's a great trainer to start out with, and a great trainer to use when you're fairly happy with your skill balance. That's what I've been doing- currently I'm fairly happy with the skill levels I have in everything and I just want more of all of it! So I've been training Evus for the last few months and I think it's been good for me. At some point I'll have to start balancing out my weak points again, but currently I'm very much enjoying the training.

Regarding detha, I don't think you need any for the 3rd circle test if you have sufficient balthus, it's just that you may need more balthus than detha for defense. 150 detha is plenty for the 3rd circle test if you have a good balthus base on top, and less detha is fine if you have a lot more balthus. Most folks I know with 3rd circle test passing problems can brick the rage just fine, but hitting it is their real problem.

[Steady Foot]

Wow Thanks for all the responses!!! They all have been very helpful.

Concerning Detha. I will have 30 Detha (not much) as of tonight. To me 150 seems a long way off. :-) I have noticed a basic level change in my ability to brick which seems to be more stable even when my balance is very low.
So I can see what you are saying. I have seen my basic level of defense is maintained regardless of my balance level, which means to me I stay up more because my connection does lag. But... I have noticed I can brick more items when I don't swing, which makes sense from what everyone is saying.
I see now the difference between the two trainers.

I have basically decided to go with Detha for a while, up to about 50. I am not happy with the balance in training I presently have, so I will not be doing Evus.

Then I will be switching to Swengus who gives the combination Balthus/Regia for more balance and swing. My present goal is to be able to do "Kitty Patrol" without the need of returning to town or ..... falling (which I have been doing a lot recently). [:)]

[Konoko]

Wah! All I did was trying to help you cuz Lex was picking up on you... so much for trying to be helpful :(((

Oh! Thanks Sargon!

My mistake! After your little ambush, I can't take anything you say at face value anymore - I have to be especially paranoid when reading your psost in case you have secret messages and codes in the posts... :)

But if this post was truly innocent - I'm sorry for jumping to the wrong conclusion! But my suspicion is not unwarranted! :)

Konoko

[Konoko]

Steady, if your plan is to be able to stay out of town longer wihout needing help, how is your troilus situation?

If you get lots of troilus, you can always sit and take a quick break while your troilus gets you some health back.


My troilus (35) sucks for all my histia 100+. It takes way too long to recover (but then as I've said before - i'm impatient!). Solo hunting is not something I do too often unless it's just for coins in SF or NWF. Anything other than that and I would prefer if a healer was accompanying me (even Sargon! :)

So perhpas Troilus would be something to consider too!

Konoko

[Kiriel]

50-75 Detha is a good number to start with. When I first hit 2nd I trained Detha till I had 75. This seemed to be perfect for bricking just about everything I hunted in the forests except boloks (which btw are gonna drive you nuts when solo for several hundred ranks more yet I promise). I didn't bring my Detha up to 150 until after I trained a bunch of other things and was getting closer to 3rd circle. When you start wanting to hunt things like wendies and maha solo, 150 detha is a good number, but for the forests, 75 is really plenty. Just remember that as you get higher up in ranks your rank gain will be slower, until you get to a point where you pretty much can't get more than a rank a day without working hard at it, so get the stuff that's important to you now before you join the 30 ranks a month club.

[Steady Foot]

I'm actually average about 1.5+ a day now. Since I was exiled in August my average over all is 2+ per day. This is due to staying in the library (5 coin a day) and being on about 1 to 2 hours an ooc day. So I get ranks from both study and hunting. I have been watching it slow down. [:(] I think that is partly due to what I am hunting. I will be going after more challenging critters once I get more Detha.

While training for 2nd circle, my axe (given to my by Kiriel [:)]) and short sword had this blue slime on it almost continually. I hunted slugs continually. Doing so, I use to gain 1 sometimes 2 ranks in one evening not counting the lib rank, just hitting slug after slug.

Then I switched to young rocks because slugs became to easy. I haven't quite fiquired out which will be next but I am leaning to the undine hut.

Lately I was more interested in coins for a ss. So I was concentrating on LV and GV which generate the coins but not the quick rise in expereince.

Sounds like I am on a good track with Detha!

I have 40 Troilus with 60+ Hista. I have read that Troilus is a level trainer and the levels are every 17 ranks (odd number). Meaning, I quess, you see improvement only every 17 ranks, interesting. Thanks for the advice about Troilus. I do mostly solo because most of the friends I have, don't stick close to town!..... and I don't do very well away from town!! [:)] Oh well.....

I have noticed the slight gray in my hair so I know............. the 30 rank club is around the corner!!!!!!

[Kiriel]

You're luckily still at that stage Steady that there are a lot of things you vanquish and kill that are easy for you to hit. If you hunted more in groups you'd probably find you could gain a lot more experience for the amount of time you hunt because the shared tags lets you get experience with only a tag, but with a group the critters can go down more quickly so you can get more of them. Generally coin hunting goes better with 1-2 people, but experience is much better with 4-6 (above that waiting for everyone to tag tends to slow things down and the experience gain isn't as good). If you do want to gain experience more quickly I think you'll find that you can easily get more ranks a day with the right type of hunting, but then of course you'll get less coins. It's a tough thing trying to balance the two.

Once you start to slaughter orgas and island panthers, it seems that it becomes a lot tougher to gain ranks through regular hunting, and by the time you slaughter artaks you really have to choose between making experience and coins in a far more distinctive way (and when you say kill it'll be because you're happy not disappointed). Enjoy your low slaughter rate while you have it!

[Konoko]

I don't believe Troilus is stepped at 17.5 ranks any more. There was a thread on the forum about this a while ago (do a little search).

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong!

Konoko

[Himitsu]

I am a dedicated comp.sys.mac.games.adventure lurker and Helpful GM posted about his latest research into Troilus and said that it is no longer stepped. Therefore, every bit of Troilus will help increase your rate of self-heal.

[Althus]

Lex, my number for Balthus vs. Detha comes from very surprisingly extensive "do it by feeling" training. I have 2 fighter characters of interest in this matter, one with primarily detha defense, and one with entirely Balthus defense (not a single rank of Detha except through his 130 or so Evus). The Balthus fighter has about 200 right now, and still bearly bricks Zerks, meaning he's in the 20-rank or so "window of sort-a". The fighter with 200 Detha bricks Zerks 100% lying down with no balance, but just barely (at 170 Detha he couldn't quite do it). From that, 85% seems just about right, but with a 5% margin of error.

[Delirium]

Top 2 myths that need to die:

1) Fighter wannabe's need to train 10 Bodrus.

2) Troilus is stepped.

Perhaps we can have a page of CL ubran legends?[;)]

[Sargon]

3) Sargon is silly

Ok, no more posts from me for today! =)

[Lex]

Unfortunately, there aren't any fun myths in CL. Most of them have to do with "what % of X will I get from Evus", or other numbers-related stuff. This is one of the reasons visionstones are sometimes bad - they prove things that would sometimes be fun if they were debated, misunderstood, or disbelieved.

Lex

[Althus]

Luckily, visionstones prove nothing :)

Revisionstone leaves a mark, sure, but ResEdit/Resourcer don't!

[Steady Foot]

Well Ladies and Gents, Wow, thanks for the advice. I have a lot to sort through and think about.

The "train with Bodrus 10 legend". Is that a legend because it doesn't matter where you get your first 10 ranks from to approach the guy (F?) accross from Troilus to become a fighter?

[Delirium]

Yes, any 10 ranks will do to become a fighter, at least as far as any of us know. In other words, none of us know of anyone who had any 10 ranks and was refused a dagger.

[Himitsu]

When I was deciding which profession to be, I talked with Master Fistus and before I trained anything he told me that I had to strengthen my body. Since body usually equals Bodrus and people have figured out that after 10 Bodrus they could become a fighter, that's why they say you need 10 Bodrus to become a fighter. Maybe if Fistus said instead that you need to become wiser or learn more or become skilled in something.

[Steady Foot]

I saw the same message from Fistus. So I naturally assumed when I was told about the legend it was correct and I needed Bodrus when actually 10 ranks from other trainers would also do.

Today, I am thinking and setting a goal, just to make 3rd circle. No PF no additional other training, just training required for 3rd circle.

We shall see how my resolve is tomorrow stuck out in the middle of SF or NF or..... slowly healing.........[:)] or... way out in the boones with no PF or....... seeing some lieing there with no chain to pull them to town or....... well you all know how it goes. [:)]

[Kiriel]

It's a laudable goal Steady Foot, but I really do recommend against that approach. There isn't really anything in 3rd circle to get all that excited over, unless you want to use a gossamer, fell blade, or bloodblade. It's a nice status to achieve, but nothing to compromise your training over, there's really no rush. I wouldn't get too focused on your training for 3rd until after you can take out everything in the test except the rage without barely getting hurt. Then you know you're within striking distance and it's just a matter of improving your rage killing skills. Enjoy 2nd circle while you're in it, train what you enjoy. Don't rush too much or you'll miss out on the fun things in life. By the time you hit 3rd circle you'll be gaining ranks pretty slowly and slaughtering most stuff in the forests most likely, and it'll be harder to achieve any other training goals you might have.

Do what you think is best for you, but I do recommend against rushing too much.
If you do decide to rush for 3rd, your key goals training wise are gonna need to be to get about 150 atkus so you can hit the rage well, get enough balance so you get decent swings with that atkus (don't get all the atkus at once and mess your swings up like I did, it hurts!), and get enough defense (probably a good base of detha, and some from your balance) so that you can brick zerks easily, and rages at least before you swing, and maybe after you swing once. You might want to think about histia for staying power and darkus to speed up the kill, but the first 3 skills alone can get you past the test if you're good enough at them. Without enough atkus especially it's very difficult to kill the rage before running out of time, as some of our esteemed clanmates can tell you.

[Coriakin]

I have a friend who claims that regia is a god. Of course, he also hunts alone and with bracers, and is still second circle... [shrugs]

Cori

[Steady Foot]

Well your wisdom needs to be considered, for sure.

My main concern at the moment is to be able to go places I have never been before without the worry of falling (or at least immeadiately falling,[:)] ). I believe training in Detha for a while may get me there. I'm missing out on all the great rescues!!

After that hmmmm.... seems maybe I need to reconsider.[:)]

[Lex]

The best way to get places you've never been without falling is to go with a group. If at least one has been around a while it helps a lot.

Lex

[Fist of Fluff]

My second post [:p]

WARNING: SPOILER MATERIAL!


Sticking my nose in here too. I can't stay away from trainer discussions [:D]


I have collected this information over a long period of time. The numbers for Evus I believe are 99% accurate.

Atkus: 25%
Swengus: 57%
Histia: 21.56% (yeah, decimals [;)] )
Detha: 6%
Darkus: 16.67% (1/6 of a rank)

So from this, Evus would give you 1.2 ranks for every one you trained; or, 6 for every 5. Very efficient for those into that sort of thing.

The amount of Balthus/Regia Evus and Swengus gives you may be different but this is pretty close for what Swengus teaches:

Balthus: 58%
Regia: 48%

Originally posted by Konoko

But with increasing swengus, you will get more balthus but your balance regen will slowly decrease.

Konoko [/B]

This is sort of accurate. Studying Swengus will give you Balthus and Regia. Since Swengus gives less Regia than Balthus, the time it takes to recover your balance from zero to full will be greater because of the extra Balthus. However, I don't tend to fight like this. If your Atkus remains the same and you study Swengus, the amount of Balthus used per swing stays the same (you just have more left over) but this is where the Regia kicks in. Your recovery time for one swing will improve as well as having the defense of the added Balthus.

Swengus and Evus are not the only trainers who give you Balthus. A rank of Atkus is about 40% Balthus and Darkus is about 45%. This is why studying Balthus seems to hurt your recovery time; it uses up the Balthus it teaches you with each swing so you have more Balthus to recover. Atkus uses more Balthus than it gives, so you need both Balthus and Regia to compensate. I got about 75 Balthus from my Atkus training and 50 from Darkus. It certainly helps my defense at full balance.

/ponders maybe I talk to much?


The Fluffy Fen

[Archemar]

GRR !!!

more hard fact spoiler !!!

I don't like talking figure, sorry,
so I compare Bor's (bring by Hippocrates and Steady Foot at the beginning of the thread)
and
Fist of Fluff's one .

Swengus 70 / 57
Balthus 35 / 58
Regia 35 / 48
Histia 23 / 21,56
Atkus 15 / 25
Darkus 15 / 16,6
Detha 5 / 6

one of my friend is a fighter and prefer to train with Evus to avoid having to switch between all teachers.
(At the moment he is training with Diggin, but not sure it will even allow him to see shortcuts ...)

Archemar

[Lex]

Heh, I trained with Diggin too, but only like 2 ranks then someone helped me find the Marsh Hermit.

Don't get too caught up with precise fractions. Evus gives a little of everything with a slight bonus, although I can tell you that no matter what the training stlye, most fighters have way more Detha than Evus gives. Personally I'd rather get hit a lot and make healers earn their keep but that's me :)

Lex

[Unregistered]

Swengus was 16/15 worth of a rank; the numbers are probably still valid. Fist was pretty close :)

[Blaise]

Originally posted by Archemar
(At the moment he is training with Diggin, but not sure it will even allow him to see shortcuts ...)

Archemar

Diggin can only supply a few ranks... enough to see the paths around and under Puddleby, I think... but not more difficult ones further afield.

(I find it ironic that Diggin is standing next to a path to the surface, but for a newcomer to reach him it's a long trip around through the inhospitable underground.) [:)]

Blaise