Horus and fallen messages

[Koric]

This is a repost from <A HREF="http://koric.clanlord.net">Koric's Journal</A> for your interest. I reposted it so that it is quotable for those interested in discussion.

My recent investigations with raising fallen exiles reveal the following facts. First of all, the fallen messages seem to go in a progression as follows:

<strong>(1)</strong> -- Don't quite have the training
<strong>(2)</strong> -- Little more serious
<strong>(3)</strong> -- Much more severe
<strong>(4)</strong> -- Significantly more serious
<strong>(5)</strong> -- Maimed
<strong>(6)</strong> -- Mangled
<strong>(7)</strong> -- Far too mangled
<strong>(8)</strong> -- Mutilated
<strong>(9)</strong> -- Nearly unrecognizable
<strong>(10)</strong> -- Nearing death
<strong>(11)</strong> -- Perilously near to death

Second: More than 2/3 of the time, if a novice healer with zero trainings in Horus is added to the mix of people trying to raise a fallen, the fallen is either raised or the message is "improved" by one level (e.g. from "(4) -- significantly more serious" to "(3) -- much more severe").

Third: With my current level of Horus (1000 ranks), I can raise anyone with a message of "far too mangled" nearly all of the time, and I have raised some exiles with messages of "mutilated" on at least two occasions. I haven't tested enough to know for sure what fraction of the time I can heal either message.

Fourth: If an exile is "(8) -- Mutilated", I can change the message to "(1) -- Don't quite" every time that I cannot heal the fallen. If an exile is "(9) -- Nearly unrecognizable", I can change the message to "(2) -- Little more serious". If the exile is "(10) -- Nearing death", I can usually change the messsage to "(3) -- Much more severe" although rarely the message changes instead to "(4) -- Significantly more serious".

Fifth: If the exile is "(11) -- Perilously near to death", the message never improves to better than "(4) -- Significantly more serious" and is usually much worse (usually doesn't even budge from pnd) when I add my skills to the healing mix. Based on these observations, I have come to the following conclusions:

I believe the message bands are about 150 Horus ranks wide from (1) through (9). It is possible that "(1) -- Don't quite" is narrower than that, maybe only 100 ranks wide. The message band at "(10) -- Nearing death" may well be a bit wider than 150 ranks. However, since I almost always move the message the same number (usually 7) of times with my Horus, they must be very nearly the same size. The message bad at "(11) -- Perilously near to death" is probably over 10,000 ranks wide.

I believe that novice healers are "born" with about 100 base Horus, perhaps more. Thus, if you have 100 trainings with Horus, your effective level of Horus is about 200. This means that if a novice healer finds a "(1) -- Don't quite" fallen exile, then that exile should be healable with the help of another novice *OR* by a solo healer with 100-150 Horus ranks, usually less. A solo healer with 50 ranks should be able to heal a "(1) -- Don't quite" fallen for a novice without assistance about 1/3 to 1/2 the time if I am right.

If you, too, have studied a bit with Master Horus and wish to add your comments, reactions, corrections or other observations, I invite your input. I will be glad to correct and update this information if I get some reliable theories backed up by observations.

[Nephilim]

Very interesting!

I was about to ask about this in the forum or in the lands but it seems the answer came before the question!

/ponder Mindreaders!

I noticed a significant difference when I recently got my first 10 trainings with Horus. I know some cases where I have been able to raise fallens that have been "quite" for another healer with no or fewer trainings with Horus.

Nephilim

[Koric]

I believe that significant difference in the first few ranks of Horus training is due to a "fallen offset". I think when people fall, there is a 10-12 Histia/Higgrus damage penalty above and beyond the normal damage they take. That's why it takes much longer to raise an exile from a single rat bite than it does to heal the damage from a single rat bite when the exile is standing.

I think it takes about 7 Horus to be able to heal 1 Health rank worth of damage beyond the fallen state. Thus, if someone falls, even a novice healer with an "effective 100" can heal the damage from falling plus whatever additional damage was taken, if that damage is very minor. An extra 10-20 ranks of Horus on top of that can really make a big difference for most things people fall to.

So, basically, I think that observation is explained by the existence of two offsets. Every healer has a base of about 100 Horus, and every fallen automatically falls to a level where it would take about 70-80 Horus to heal plus whatever damage is taken on top of that.

[Lex]

Very well done :)

I was wondering, do you have an idea of how much Histia/Higgrus below zero requires how much Horus?

For example, a Vel bolt takes me to red from full health, and I have (about) 70 Histia. It's high red, about 10% left. So if I took a second bolt it would take another 90% of my health, so I'd be at -80% or about -56 Histia. That is assuming that damage below zero is equal to what you would have sustained if standing.

I've had it happen anyway, and I seem to need over 200 Horus, maybe close to or over 300, so maybe for every 1 point of Histia below zero you need 4-6 ranks of Horus to raise.

I'm really not sure how accurate I am, I was just curious if you had done this kind of analysis.

Lex

[Brune]

(resuscitating the thread)

I'll ask here, since I have not seen Koric in a while:

You outline your findings regarding fallen messages.

At first glance, I was concluding that training less than one "bandwidth" (~150 ranks) in Horus is unproductive; however, are the messages more analogous to trainer messages? i.e. each rank you train improves you, but messages only change at intervals of 10, 50, or 100 ranks.

So each Horus rank allows you to heal X histia/higgrus the fallen is below 0 (and it looks like you are saying 7 ranks per health point...ugh!).

It is correct that the messages are quantum jumps, but each rank (or 7) of horus is a benefit?

Brune

[Kiriel]

I'm pretty sure that every rank in horus is useful. Horus is an all or nothing skill in the sense that you can't heal a fallen at all without the right amount of horus, but the messages indicate a range of fallenness. You can see this evidenced by the fact that sometimes an orga eye will make a fallen healable (I'm guessing an OE reduces the horus needed by 5 or less, but this is just a guess) and by the fact that someone with a certain level of horus training will be able to make the difference on some fallens but not others with the same fallen message.

It seems that even a healer with no ranks can always heal a quite fallen, but that the other bands of horus may not be equivalent in size- sometimes adding a healer will change the message and sometimes it won't although it will still reduce the amount of total horus left to healability.

[Mehan]

Horus says it's good to see me. I've trained a little bit with him, and Eva must brag about me.. or threaten him into saying it!

I have noticed, despite what Lex says!, that when fallens are quite for new exiles with no horus, I can heal them myself sometimes. So neener, Lex.[:D]

[Coriakin]

Don't forget, Lex, that you have a certain amount of inherant histia training, just by being a sylvan (not as much as a zo, say, but still). If you don't factor that into your calculations, the Horus-to-Histia ratio you end up with will be low.

Then again, I say that trying to figure anything out in terms of numbers doesn't work in Clanlord. Since everyone has their own numbers, and no-one's agrees with anyone else's, you're just going to end up confused. :P

(Yes, yes, not entirely true. I know. Leave me alone. ;) )

Coriakin

[Koric]

Mehan, that goes along with my experiences, too, and it's something I addressed in the 2nd part of my journal entry on the subject. There seems to be a "fallen penalty" (my hypothesis). If you have, say, 10 health and are hit for 12 damage, you would normally go to -2. But the trauma of falling adds, say, 5-15 points of damage, taking you to -7 or -17 (this explains why it takes longer to heal to standing someone who falls to a rat compared with the time it takes to simply heal the damage from a rat bite while the person is standing).

So a person with 0 Horus (100 effective the healer is born with, in other words) can heal anyone who falls to about -5 health prior to the penalty. With about 20 Horus trainings, you could heal anyone fallen to about -8 health prior to the penalty. Since most of the things newbies hunt don't do much more than 8-10 points of damage, a few trainings with Horus would make a big difference healing fallens.

And to answer Brune, Horus is a continuum, not stepped. For example, with each Horus rank, your percentage chance to solo-heal someone who is "quite" for a novice goes up. Once you hit, say, 100 trainings, you can solo-heal a "quite" fallen every single time, and then you start getting a small chance to solo-heal a "little more serious". At about 170 trainings, you have a 50/50 chance to solo-heal a "little more serious". At about 250, it goes to 100%, and then you start on the "significantly more serious" solo-healing, and so on.

With 1140 Horus, I can usually solo-heal "mutilated" or help heal a "nearly unrecognizable" when another healer is already on. Not sure exactly what my chances are, since I don't get too many opportunities to take measurements (hard to get someone that fallen in the arena should I try to do it in a controlled way).

[Lex]

Originally posted by Koric
Not sure exactly what my chances are, since I don't get too many opportunities to take measurements (hard to get someone that fallen in the arena should I try to do it in a controlled way).

Aldernon can help.

Lex

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Lex
Aldernon can help.

I can help too! One hit from Aldernon when he's at full strength would get me much more severe, mutulated, or even pnd in a second.

I'd be interested to see how badly fallen he can get me with one bloodblade swing. [:)] Anything in the name of science, after all.

[Hidden]

Aldernon will definitely get you PND. Hrothgar isn't nearly as well trained as Aldernon and got me unrecognizable or nearing death (I forget which) in one swipe when we were both at 0 health. I'd say that's roughly 170 HP of damage, since I have about 220 trained histia + about a 30 rank thoomy bonus, and he takes me down to about 20% from full.

[Thuja]

Originally posted by Koric

<strong>(1)</strong> -- Don't quite have the training
<strong>(2)</strong> -- Little more serious
<strong>(3)</strong> -- Much more severe
<strong>(4)</strong> -- Significantly more serious
<strong>(5)</strong> -- Maimed
<strong>(6)</strong> -- Mangled
<strong>(7)</strong> -- Far too mangled
<strong>(8)</strong> -- Mutilated
<strong>(9)</strong> -- Nearly unrecognizable
<strong>(10)</strong> -- Nearing death
<strong>(11)</strong> -- Perilously near to death

I'd be willing to bet that SMS comes before MMS. This would throw some of your calculations off.

If you, too, have studied a bit with Master Horus and wish to add your comments, reactions, corrections or other observations, I invite your input. I will be glad to correct and update this information if I get some reliable theories backed up by observations.

I have not trained much with Horus, only 50 ranks way back, and I got another 75 or so from Eva, but I can suggest a few corrections on numbers needed for lower level fallens.

First, as I reached 50 trained Horus, I was sometimes, but very rarely, able to heal a fallen at little more serious. This suggests that "Quite" at most needs only base Horus +50 ranks.

At 125 Horus, I can with very few exceptions heal fallens at little more serious.

At 150 Horus, Jade can sometimes, but very rarely heal a fallen at significantly more serious, and she can heal all fallens at little more serious.

From this I conclude that the first few levels each stretch across only 100 ranks. Base Horus is likely around 50.

The gaps probably widen to 150, and possibly 200 at higher levels.

[Koric]

Thuja, you are right that SMS comes before MMS. I never went back and edited my original journal entry list, but that didn't affect my conclusions (because I just had them mislabeled in my notes, yet used them consistently).

When you say that you were able to heal a LMS with 50 Horus ranks, do you mean that someone with no Horus said "this person is LMS" and backed off for you to solo heal? Or do you mean you were able to heal from LMS when someone else was already on? If the answer is the latter, then that is consistent with my conclusions because when your skills are added to the mix, you are adding 150 Horus to the efforts of another healer, effectively, which puts you at the low end of the LMS band.

If your information is based on solo-healing after someone else diagnoses and backs off, then I'll need to rethink the numbers. I'm pretty sure about base Horus being big, at least 100, because it is very rare that a healer is added to a healing mix without a message change, and the bandwidth is at least 100 from other arguments.

Maybe I'll bug Aldernon sometime and bring a few zero Horus healers and another healer with halfway decent Horus to the arena and actually make some careful measurements. In an hour, I could probably give more reliable estimates. All my numbers come from field healing.

[Thuja]

When you say that you were able to heal a LMS with 50 Horus ranks, do you mean that someone with no Horus said "this person is LMS" and backed off for you to solo heal? Or do you mean you were able to heal from LMS when someone else was already on? If the answer is the latter, then that is consistent with my conclusions because when your skills are added to the mix, you are adding 150 Horus to the efforts of another healer, effectively, which puts you at the low end of the LMS band.

When someone was already on. The reason I think base Horus is lower, is that I heal LMS with 50 Horus, and Jade heals SMS with 150 Horus. This is only a difference of 100.

A base of 100 would mean that the Quite band is 150, while the LMS band is only 100. It's possible, but I think unlikely.

With 150 Horus, Jade can just reach across the two lowest levels. If they are each 150 wide, base must be at least 150, which it can't possibly be. If they are each 100 wide, as I believe, base must be 50.

I'm pretty sure about base Horus being big, at least 100, because it is very rare that a healer is added to a healing mix without a message change, and the bandwidth is at least 100 from other arguments.

Actually I see no message change quite often, but it's hard to draw a conclusion without having done any proper stats on it.

[Lex]

Originally posted by Koric
Maybe I'll bug Aldernon sometime and bring a few zero Horus healers and another healer with halfway decent Horus to the arena and actually make some careful measurements. In an hour, I could probably give more reliable estimates. All my numbers come from field healing.

If you do, make sure you try people of different races. I'm pretty sure thooms and sylvans start out with a bit more inherent horus than other races, which if true would make Thuja's and Jade's abilities consistent with your conclusions.

Lex

[Thuja]

If you do, make sure you try people of different races. I'm pretty sure thooms and sylvans start out with a bit more inherent horus than other races, which if true would make Thuja's and Jade's abilities consistent with your conclusions.

It's possible, but I don't think so. I have never seen evidence suggesting that. 50 ranks is a huge difference, and it would be easy to spot. Even 10 ranks will make a difference more often than an orga eye.

Horus was added to the healing profession at a very late time. I seem to recall him showing up in the healer temple one day, available to everyone. This was after the war. I was first circle and trained 7 ranks with him. Shortly thereafter, he moved to 2nd circle.

[Brune]

Thuja expressed:

Even 10 ranks will make a difference more often than an orga eye.

I'm sorry. Only in CL.

"more often than an orga eye"

There simply MUST be a way to use that phrase every day ;-))))

/chuckles

Brune

[Delirium]

From my personal observations, I can't say whether the bands are 100 or 150 wide. However, I do hunt a bit with newbies, and I have had the fallen message for me (with 200+a little Horus) remain unchanged on numerous occasions. New healers are encouraged to start with Eva, so it is rare for even 1st circle healers to have absolutely no horus. Since I hit 200 horus, I can't recall a single LMS I couldn't get (and solo heal if the diagnosis was made by a newbie healer). Sometimes I can get someone in the next message range. Unfortunately, It looks like 200 horus is at a point where the two models have an overlap. Based on intuitive "feel" - If you made me place a bet, I'd say "base" was 50, and the "bands" are 100 wide. However, I really don't have enough data to establish a reasonable significance level. Further work is required. Think the Puddleby science foundation will fund a grant?

-Delirium

[Koric]

My main data point on the width of the bands comes from my own experiences. I now have 1150 Horus, and I can sometimes help heal someone who is nearly unrecognizable. That means my base Horus plus my 1150 ranks can only improve a fallen by nine messages. That implies a bandwidth of about 125 Horus if the base Horus is about 100. If there is variance in the messages, the bandwidth could be 150. If the bandwidth were as low as 100, then I would be healing some PND's by now (possibly even solo). But I have never helped to heal even a Nearing Death yet. Give me six zero Horus healers and 30 minutes in the arena, and I could figure out the base/bandwidth ratio, but I've been too lazy to put it together.

[Delirium]

Giving it some thought, I'd actually expect the bands not to be of uniform width. Just look at how the rank messages are set up. It could well be that they are 100 on the low end, and more on the higher end. I seem to recall seeing 2 or 3 healers added to a "Nearing Death" without the message changing, but I may not have been paying close enough attention. Only on very rare occasions does adding one healer to a "quite" not do the trick.

Sounds like you are not going to apply for the grant, Koric. While I find the discussion interesting, I enjoy doing other things more when I'm out of the Library (and I suspect you do too, otherwise you would have done this already).[;)]

[Lorikeet]

I guess I might as well bring this whole post back to the top [;)] I hadn't seen it before the question on messages was recently raised. I can tell you from my testing that it is certain that the band for mutilated is larger than the bands that went before. When I was first able to get some mutilated, I tested it, and my success with mutilated ranged from raising, getting a "quite" message, and getting a "little" message. I think the bands at the higher levels are larger, and of course, the "pnd" band is huge.