sharing upside-down

[Brune]

After reading a bunch of stuff in this forum, I find this to be a CL-like environment (i.e. friendly), as opposed to the player-vs-player attitude in the newsgroup.

I posted a thing in the newsgroup, but thought I might get better, more productive input here.

This is just a speculation, and thanks for your time:


POST
I had a cruel idea this morning, so I decided to share it...

This is purely to get people's opinions, not a call for change.

Observation: When a healer is healing a fighter, the effect on the healer is dependent on whether or not the fighter is /sharing the healer. That is, the healer loses health and spirit more quickly if the fighter is not sharing.

Observation: The rate of health gain for the fighter is NOT dependent on whether or not s/he is sharing the healer.

Conclusion: Fighters share out of the kindness of their hearts (yes,this is a strawman, but the point is that the fighter does not modulate healing rate through sharing).

Question: What types of long-term (i.e. as far back as the first Post-Ripture day) or short-term (in a given fight, rescue, hanging-around-in-town-healing-passing-woundeds)effects would there be if /sharing had no effect on the healer's rate of spirit/health loss, but had a significant effect (comparable to the current effect on healers) on the Rate of Health Gain experienced by a fighter? What if /sharing a healer increased the fighter's health gain?

The implications have been turning over in my head, and I can't settle on a clear idea of why this is not how healing works (or why BOTH the healer AND the fighter don't get "penalized" for not sharing.

Brune

[Kiriel]

Welcome to our forum!

Actually, in my experience, health gain for fighters is tied to whether they are sharing for most healers. A healer who is losing their spirit more rapidly is going to have a harder time keeping themselves healthy enough to heal the fighter, so if they keep having to stop to regain spirit or health, that will slow the health gain of the fighter. It's not often obvious to the fighter that it's happening, because if only one person is injured the healer usually doesn't get tapped out by them, but in a group where a bunch of folks are injured and the healer is trying to heal them up, non sharing can make a noticable difference in the amount of time it takes to heal up the group, and possibly the individual fighter.

Quite frankly, when I was a newbie fighter I had no understanding of why it was important to share healers. People kept telling me to do it, but I really didn't get why it was so important. When I started my healer character I instantly understood. I think every fighter should play a healer at least for a few days, they can learn a lot from it. Heck, healers should play fighters for a bit too so they can learn things like healing from an angle or corner is much better than backpacking directly behind the fighter and trapping them in.

On a semi related note, many folks don't realize that mystic skills are boosted based on the number of shares they have. I was told many times to share mystics when I was new too, and I thought it was just so they could locate me, but I learned much much later that mystic skills really do get stronger the number of shares they have. Since then, I make much more of a point of sharing mystics when I have free shares (I share with healers too, but I always try to share at least one mystic). Although a healer only really needs a share when you're near them, the mystic can benefit from shares wherever you are, so it's often a good idea to give them spare shares, especially locating mystics who may be able to find folks better because of the extra shares. I think the mystic guild should really do more to educate folks about this, it would help their shares, but it's not really the sort of thing mystics do (tell people folks about their profession that is).

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Brune
Observation: The rate of health gain for the fighter is NOT dependent on whether or not s/he is sharing the healer.

Oy...
Did I miss a major storm? I definately thought that the rate of healing was effected by the sharing/non-sharing.

-Nunul

[Altir]

Ah will add me 2 coins in:

Ah thought ah fighter got ah experience bonus fer sharin ah healer fer tha kills... 'n o' course tha healer gits ah percentage o' that. Tis tha way ah healah kin git experience.

Tha benefit ta sharin ah mystic is it doubles (ah think) his skryin range ta find ye. It also helps his boosts. Thar no experience benefit that ah know of tho.

I.e. Ah fighter benefits from sharin a healer because he gits an experience bonus. Tis small from what ah understand. Tis this still true?

Ah think ah read it on one 'o tha other clans pages - Sun Dragon parhaps? O' was it Bravehearts?

Altir

[Altir]

I play all three types of characters - it does certainly help to play the other types so you can understand "why" things work sometimes the way they do or why healers/fighters/mystics do what they do.



Aye! er.. Beer! er.. /action grumbles dern rodents!

Altir

[Steady Foot]

Here are my observations. I am thinking purely from the relational aspect of Puddleby. Oh I didn't know that mystics abitlities increased with sharing!!

Generally I try to keep my shares full. The shares may rotate depending on the moment.

/ponder I wish we had more shares than 5.

Why do I practice that?

1) Sharing with mystics is a good pratice. It makes them very willing to find you if you are fallen.

2) Sharing with healers gives them the desire to go out of their way to find and heal you if your are fallen.

This is reciprocal, meaning if a healer I am sharing with falls. I will try to find them if I can. For me the healers are usually so experienced they're not even near Puddleby, which means there isn't a whole lot I can do.[:)]

3) I have read scrolls that lead me to believe that sharing boosts the amount of experience I recieve while sharing. Not sure what the numbers are but if all 5 share slots are used it might be 110% instead of the normal 100%.

Also I have not noticed any difference in the healing rate if I share or not with the healer. Doesnt mean there isn't, just haven't noticed. But......
I have noticed one healer can heal me very quickly and three healers very slowly. It seems to be more related to their training and experience. Please note I was sharing with all four healers.

If a fighter recieved a health benifit from sharing with a healer that would certainly give him more incentive to share but I think there already is plenty of incentive to share.


Oh btw Welcome to the Forum!!

[Kiriel]

I'm pretty sure that you get 1% bonus experience for every share you give out, regardless of profession, and the shareee gets 10% of your experience. I might have the numbers wrong, but that's what I remember. I've always wondered what types of experience go into that. For instance, does that 10% bonus you get from being shared get repeated to someone you're sharing so they get 1% of the person's experience 2 shares away? Does library experience and clan experience go into that as well? Or is it just experience earned from things like fighting and quests?

I'm not sure whether you get healed faster when sharing, I thought the speed was the same technically, but that the effects on the healer could cause them to have to take breaks to regain spirit. I could be wrong though, my healer rarely heals in situations in which speed is a big issue.

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Kiriel
Does library experience and clan experience go into that as well? Or is it just experience earned from things like fighting and quests?

Once upon a time (not sure what version it was) I stubled across Tina...she had just awoken from a VERY long time in the library.
I got MANY experience messages the whole of the time she was sharing with me. Keep in mind that Tina is a mystic herself and I'm purty sure she wasn't running amuck, tagging Hatreds [:D]

As I wake from the library, I make it a point to share with as many as possible before I get my experience message...not that I think that I would get a % bonus as I would while fighting, but in the hopes that my lib exp would be transferred to the others.

-Nunul

[Blaise]

Originally posted by Kiriel
I'm not sure whether you get healed faster when sharing, I thought the speed was the same technically, but that the effects on the healer could cause them to have to take breaks to regain spirit. I could be wrong though, my healer rarely heals in situations in which speed is a big issue.

Subjectively, when healing a non-sharing fighter, it seems that you (the healer) are healing at the same pace, but you're burning Spirit much faster... but then when that runs out you can only heal as fast as you can regenerate it. At that point you are definitely healing 'slower', even if you aren't pausing to recover. That's a function of your training, of course... more senior healers with lots of Respia are gonna recover better. For me, the experience is like fighting on low balance...once you get way down in Spirit it can be hard to recover AND do effective survival healing.

One of the fun things about WoD is that we have SO many different healing styles that seem to work. It's interesting to watch.

Blaise

[Althus]

Hoo boy.. where to begin, where to begin, eh? :)

First of all: Sharing *does* directly affect the rate at which a healer heals a fighter. You can observe this best on people with lots of a) Histia and b) Rodnus. A shared fighter gets healed quicker, and in longer pulses without regen. Healing a shared healer is exactly like healing an unshared healer in all respects. Healing a shared mystic is like a shared fighter. An unshared mystic is somewhere in between an unshared healer and fighter. Fighter clanmates are like mystics in this respect.

As far as "what goes into exp you share", that is just kills. Sole-ly kills. Nothing but kills. Clan exp is not transferred, nor is library exp, unless, possibly, you share in the first frame you're logged on (not possible unless you're plugged directly into the server). Quest experience, healing experience, skinning experience, etcetera are not shared. Nor is sharing experience, which is why Thuja's shares are worthless, except for "wow, a super healer is sharing me" value, while she herself gains lots of experience.

The exception to this is something called a "spirit pulse", which I don't believe has happened post-war to anyone. It travels to all your sharees and their sharees and so on at full value.

Sharing gives you a shared (it is passed on) 1% experience bonus for kills for anyone you share, regardless of profession. Sharing a mystic doubles their range when locating you, and mystic skills increase at intervals of 3 shares, making a mystic with 30 shares fairly powerful.

[Althus]

As for penalizing the fighter, it already happens through social pressure. Most healers won't heal a fighter who never shares. I personally give anyone who consistantly fails to share with me a good karma saying "sharing is caring", then make them last priority for healing if they don't share (that is to say, I heal them after everyone else, including me, is white).

[Brune]

Blaise wrote (i don't know how to do the neat "quote" thingy):

Subjectively, when healing a non-sharing fighter, it seems that you (the healer) are healing at the same pace, but you're burning Spirit much faster... but then when that runs out you can only heal as fast as you can regenerate
it.



This is right on. Also, there are several good reasons to share, as people of correctly pointed out. Sharing is polite, it earns extra experience for all involved, it allows notification regarding fallens, it improves healer efficiency, and boosts mystics.

I guess my question was a bit more conceptual than empirical though.

In a nutshell, why is the burden of not-sharing carried primarily by the healer (the fighter does not immediately and directly suffer any decrease in the effect of healer faustus on him or her--though the longer term effects Kiriel presented are true). Why is healing designed this way?

Conceptually it seems (arguably) to make more sense that when the fighter creates a spirit link it should improve the "fighter end" of things, instead of the "healer end."

(part of this comes from hearing repeatedly over the years, from fighters, the sweeping statement that healers are 'in it for the shares' and practice greedy 'share snatching' techniques, and most recently that the "please share because healing is less draining for me if you do" is only an excuse to get a share. Burns me up. Really does. No offense to fighters, this is a very vocal MINORITY. really!)

\action stops his ball from rolling ;-))
Brune

[Kiriel]

Originally posted by Brune
Blaise wrote (i don't know how to do the neat "quote" thingy):

You can do the neat quote thingy by clicking on the quote button underneath the post.


I guess my question was a bit more conceptual than empirical though.

In a nutshell, why is the burden of not-sharing carried primarily by the healer (the fighter does not immediately and directly suffer any decrease in the effect of healer faustus on him or her--though the longer term effects Kiriel presented are true). Why is healing designed this way?

Conceptually it seems (arguably) to make more sense that when the fighter creates a spirit link it should improve the "fighter end" of things, instead of the "healer end."

(part of this comes from hearing repeatedly over the years, from fighters, the sweeping statement that healers are 'in it for the shares' and practice greedy 'share snatching' techniques, and most recently that the "please share because healing is less draining for me if you do" is only an excuse to get a share. Burns me up. Really does. No offense to fighters, this is a very vocal MINORITY. really!)

\action stops his ball from rolling ;-))
Brune

Well I think it would be difficult to implement healing in such a way as to put the burden of sharing on the fighter. Heck, most of the time they don't realize the effects because they don't know the healing speed and spirit regain for the healers they hunt with, so they can't tell when they're affected. Fighters have a basic concept in their heads of slow and fast healing, which is affected more by how in a hurry they are than it is by the actual speed of healing :)

Regarding the greedy comments, the only person I've seen really express those publicly is Warren on the newsgroup. There are a few folks who just don't get it, but I think most folks totally understand the need to share healers, some just understand the why better than others. I think additionally that there's nothing wrong with healers wanting a share beyond strictly the heal speed factor, after all, they are designed to be crippled from an experience earning standpoint so that they will be dependent on fighter shares, it gives them an extra incentive to help folks and what's wrong with that? If it weren't for shares, healers would definitely make more experience in the library (even with the shares that's kind of the case for many), so if you want healers out in the world helping people, sharing them liberally is key, regardless of whether they help you out of greed or the goodness of their hearts, they're still healing you :)

[Drablak]

What Althus said plus:

the length of time you were sharing a mystic affects his ability to find you. This gives an incentive not to share only once fallen (as some people do). If you have been sharing since coming out of the lib and fall, you are easier to locate than if you share once fallen. I think it also affects other mystic skills, but it is harder to measure on other skills.

Drablak

[Farhope]

I don't know what this will change for me.

Yes, just out the library, I try to have my 5 shares used. This could be strange for the people I am sharing as if I am directly invited to a hunt, my shares can changed quickly.
Who I share? friends, clanamtes, new exiles, mystics, healers... :-)

What would change your porposition, Brune? ... hmm...
I think that it would be quickly known by everyone (behalve the new exiles) and I think that fighters would share more "local healers" (that is a good thing, for me) but I think, I hope, that is what happens already fairly often. So... I don't think it will change poeple behavious that much.

For the conceptual idea, I like it. The problem of sharing would be gone towards the fighters.

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Althus
Clan exp is not transferred, nor is library exp, unless, possibly, you share in the first frame you're logged on (not possible unless you're plugged directly into the server).

This IMMHO must have been fixed to be this way since that day I related to about Tina's sharing. No one of substantial RWability was sharing me at the time and I wasn't exactly RWing myself. I haven't had this happen since, but I firmly believe that it was happening then.

-Nunul

\action goes back to ROTFLHAO due to Hidden's reply to Ghoti on the NG, and then promptly explodes after reading Kojiro's reply to WW concerning whoopie-making.

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Kiriel
Well I think it would be difficult to implement healing in such a way as to put the burden of sharing on the fighter. Heck, most of the time they don't realize the effects because they don't know the healing speed and spirit regain for the healers they hunt with, so they can't tell when they're affected.

You are mistaken.

(I always wanted to say that <G>)

Once upon a time, the healing "whoop whoop whoop" (a quote from the lovely and tallented Slyph) and the sparklies associated with the healing action were the same between healing a sharing vs. a non-sharing fighter. Then one certain storm seemed (to me at least) the effects were modified so that when you were attempting to heal a non-sharer, the "whoop" was lower in tone and the sparklies were darker in appearance. Unless I am the only one to see this ability that is...
Its pretty easy to pick out those who are not sharing others as you can see yourself the darker sparks even if you cant hear the "whoop".

-WD

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Nunul
"whoop whoop whoop"

Correction: the actual quote was "woog, woog, woog"
-the editor

[Lex]

Originally posted by Althus
"sharing is caring"

Heh, you sound like an after-school special. Normally I share anyone who startes healing me even if I have to unshare them after. An exception might be in town center when 3 or 4 healers run up to you at once. Even if I pass a healer in the forest I'll share just so maybe they'll get a few coins, plus you know they're not far away if something tragic happens. If for some reason I don't want to share a healer, I'll move away and not allow them to heal me so at least they are not getting too weak from it.

Generally, I don't care if all 5 share slots are full. After I log on I'll either share the party I'm with, or if I'm solo hunting I'll slowly add shares when I pass people or notice a friend log on. I sometimes share mystics. I usually try to share one even if they aren't a JM with locating ability if I'm just running around coin hunting. My share is worthless for exp but I guess I think it makes them feel good for being shared. I'm also not big on cross-sharing other fighters on hunts, but I'll do it most of the time. However if I can I'll share a healer or mystic who's not there but could use the exp.

Lex

[Kiriel]

I've never heard a difference in the noise before, but I'll keep an eye out for it Nunul.

[Lex]

If a few healers at once start healing you, it's easy to tell one is a non-share, because instead of a uniform sound, you get the mixed share vs. non-share sound. There is definitely a difference in both the sound and the sparkles size/intensity for shares vs. non-shares. This is true for fighters - not sure if it's true for healing a non-sharing healer.

Lex

[Konoko]

You're not imagining things Nunul...
I've heard the difference in healing noises too :)

[Brune]

Lex wrote

There is definitely a difference in both the sound and the sparkles size/intensity for shares vs. non-shares. This is true for fighters - not sure if it's true for healing a non-sharing healer.


In the ancient days, there was only one whub whub sound.

Then there were two. A deeper, lower tone was heard when a healer was healing a non-sharing fighter.

There is a similar tone when healers are healing non-sharing mystics. It might be different from the deeper,lower tone of fighters.
I think the unsharing mystic tone is recent (in the past year), but I don't recall when it was introduced.

There is only one tone when healing a healer, regardless of sharing.

I think Bor or Torin of clan Hunter wrote a Sharing FAQ long ago.
Lex, I just went to the Clan Hunter Newcomer's guide at
http://hunter.clanlords.com/newcomers/index.html

but it loaded as a blank page...just passing that along to whomever is in charge of your site.

Brune

[Lex]

Thanks Brune. The page loaded fine for me - maybe you need to update your cache as the entire site was fiddled with recently.

Lex

[Kiriel]

That page doesn't load for me either. I looked at the HTML and there are some errors in there, including a missing closing frameset tag and missing closing / for the tags that don't have a closing tag (if you're doing XHTML this is necessary). So that would explain why it works for some folks and not others.

[Lex]

Thanks Kiriel. Katan is in charge of the site and he's made a lot of changes lately. It looks great but it was just recently done and apparently needs some touch-up.

Lex

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Brune
In the ancient days, there was only one whub whub sound.

woog, woog, woog


thank you [;)]

[Coriakin]

Hmm, guess I shoulda checked here sooner, too much stuff to read all at once. ;)


Anywho, Althus wrote:
The exception to this is something called a "spirit pulse", which I don't believe has happened post-war to anyone. It travels to all your sharees and their sharees and so on at full value.

Wrong. I've recieved spirit pulses on at least two occasions, and I know that other people have. They're rewards to groups or individuals who do outstanding role playing. Or hack out horrible melodramas, at least. ;) From what I've experienced, they are only handed out during special occasions, for exceptional deeds.

I'm pretty sure they only transfer one share down, otherwise everyone who was connected via shares (i.e. everyone online) would recieve the pulse, which doesn't happen.

They're very good experience, so go out and roleplay, everybody! :)

HWC Cori