Discuss goals page

[Kiriel]

I've put up a draft of text for our goals page at:
http://www.anybrowser.org/clanlord/goals.html

I'm not going to link to it on the site until we've finalized it. I tried to incorporate the ideas we discussed but as we hadn't settled anything it clearly needs a little work. Please take a look and post your comments on how to make it better.

(Yes, I know the graphic is broken- that's temporary)

[Konoko]

You mention that we will never be a particularly powerful clan. I think there's a similar line under joining too. Perhaps we're not too powerful now compared to other clans, but as more join us and as time progresses, we should become pretty powerful.

Newbies by definition are not powerful. However, these same exiles over time will become powerful. I'm sure these now powerful exiles that were once newbies will gladly help out newbies the same way they were helped out.

I think we should make sure we're not blind to this happening. In other words, we will become "powerful" in a manner of speaking. I don't think we want to limit ourselves with a statement saying we are not going to be powerful...

Perhaps this is one reason the dun'ilsar thing did not work out with the drakes. I think the drakes perhaps overlooked the fact that once newbies become stronger, they will want more challenges. Dun'ilsar would fit in nicely here. I was also going to say more dangerous/challenging clan hunts but our first clan hunt was to fire island and I think that was challenging enough :)


I think it also sounds a little negative. It kind of sounds like the clan is being degraded. Perhaps word it something like "We're not too powerful yet but as the newbies and other exiles who join us grow with the clan and become more powerful, our clan will become more powerful." Perhpas power isn't our goal but I think it will happen from a group perspective.

We will always be helping out newbies but we will also have powerful exiles on the other end. I think we have to keep this in mind and offer challenges, etc for both types of members without making one group feel like it is being excluded.

If we end up focusing so much on one area and not growing as the members grow, bad things will happen like:
- stronger members leaving because no challenge
- other members leaving because they want changes

This kind of sounds familiar, eh?

So don't avoid the "power" issue, instead embrace it and make it work for us...


Konoko

[Kiriel]

I guess my purpose in that statement was to emphasize that the clan is not focused on being a powerful group- we don't let people in based on their level of skill. Perhaps there is a better way to phrase it?

[Konoko]

I knew that's what you meant...
But, yeah, maybe phrase it differently

Anyone have a better phrasing?

[GrayGradi]

Maybe some better language might look more like:

"The Winds of Dawn strives to foster the spirit of helpfulness and cooperation among exiles. We believe doing this well is the real source of strength and power in a clan, and the enjoyment it can add to life in Puddlesby for all exiles."

This certainly stems from my own take on what makes Clanlord worthwhile, but I hope it is shared by all of us.

[Nunul]

Bravo Gray!
I tend to agree with Konoko as far as stronger members feeling stagnation as they grow.

Helping new exiles should be the primary goal, but helping exiles as a whole could be a behind the scenes goal also for the more advanced members. For example, the exploration and gathering of information. I share Farhopes desire to map out interesting areas, and would in itself serve the clan and help the exiles we wish to better.


I would like to see a list of "part time" goals such as exploration, and diplomacy with other clans added to our main goal.

Nunul

[GrayGradi]

One task we could undertake would be to update Braveheart's Guide. Besides bringing it up to date and correcting the spelling and grammar errors, I think it could be greatly improved by:

a) Not duplicately material found in Healery's guide
b) Making it a 2 parter; one for true newbies, and a second for those with 50 to 100 ranks.

The newbie version would be a lot shorter and more understandable; hopefully folks would be able to retain more of it from one reading.

The "advanced" version, by assuming familiarity with the lands, could convey more tactical information -- including some of the fundamentals "rules" behind it -- at a point where it would be meaningful to the reader.

We also might want to add a little more discussion of etiquette, cooperation and teamwork to the guide, and possibly some personal "testimonials".

[Kiriel]

I made changes to the page based on the suggested text GrayGradi suggested- I thought he phrased it really well.

Nunul- do you have some suggested text for the page for your suggestions? I'm not quite sure how to integrate your ideas.

I think it would be great for us to undertake some good documents for exiles. Where is the guide you mentioned?

[Lilly]

Quick Ideas for a webguide for New exiles:

a) locations of all the clothing merchants
b) quick summaries on each clan, and who to contact in that clan for further info
c) the names and abbreviations of places (TGBG=Tree Giant Breeding Ground, etc) and directions on how to get there.
d) A compendium of monsters, where they can be found, and what ranks it may take to kill them
e) The locations of trainers, and what those trainers do
f) basic buildings and their locations/purposes
g) non-clan organizations, such as the West Foundation or Bards
h) Where one can find ore, berries, wood, etc, and what those items do
i) Explanations of events and activites, such as Dun'Ilsar, or Pushball League
j) items you can buy, and general prices for them
k) combat tactics
l) an area where exile's stories can be printed, and suggestions on what info would help to fill out a persons own story

these are the ones off the top of my head. the list goes on and on. I am not sure what other online guides are out there, but I think The Winds of Dawn would do well to have an expansive one of its own. <piles the workload up on the webmaster> <grins>

[Farhope]

My opinion about different things here (sorry it is long):

Goal: I really think (in fact it is important for me) that our primary goal must stay "helping the new exiles".
As I said in anoter post:

"For me, it is really important that the primary goal would still be "help new exiles along their journeys". If it is "only" one of our goal, I think we don't need a new clan for that: there are already plenty of good clans who have, inside their goal, the "help the new exile". Even powerful clans as Sun Dragon Clan ("To be diplomats to the Clan Lord world, especially to new arrivals") or The Brotherhood of Independents ("It is the duty of every member to assist weaker players and newly arrived exiles to improve themselves") or others have that goal. I think these clans are completely sincere, but we don't see them a lot with that beheviour as it is not their only primary goal. "

I don't want to create a new clan to create a clan like the others clans but only if this new clan has something that I don't find in these others clans.

But, sure, I do want to do others things and I do others things: for example I try, for the moment, to steal ores from the t'rools, I try to finish my map of the south marsh... Usually I do that without a new exile to my side, but it is not my first goal: it is sides activities (but they are fun also!).


Is this goal still challenging for "powerful" exiles?

I think it is (but only my opinion here)! I remember a hunt on Ash Island with Gurgi. It was really funny for me. You will say "ah, but Gurgi did that for your share Farhope!" and then... I hope he had fun (I think he had), I had fun... it is no problem that he was interested with my share. So, yes I think it is possible for somebody as powerful as Gurgi to have fun hunting with new exiles.
I don't think I would have fun to always hunt there as a new exile... but a one shot was very good (by the way, it was the only time I was hunting there :-)

I have seen Axell explaining a lot of basic things to a new exile. Amelia (she is near 3 circle I think) has lot of patience with new exiles... same thing for Tater (and she is 3 circle :-)... Yes, I think it is possible to still have fun with goal even when becoming "powerful".

You are bored to hunt always with new exiles? If one day you want to hunt on Dal'Noth in solo, great!... perhaps tomorrow you will be in the farms with a new exile. That is what I do (ok, not on Dal'Noth :-)!

You have no more fun with new exiles?
If you find that the goal(s) of the clan is (are) no more fun, what do you do?
1. you change them;
2. you leave the clan;
3. you stay in the clan but you don't do a lot of things for the goal(s);
For me, the solution is (2). If one day, the gaol(s) of our clan doesn't interested me anymore, I will leave.

----

Power: I really think that Kiri was right, we don't WANT power, it is not our goal. But, sure, one day, we will be seen as a powerful clan but it will be, IMHO, only a the effect of the time. I am, every day, amazed by how much I am powerful when I compare me some zodiacs ago, it is really clear when I hunt with new exiles in the farms... yes I am more powerful, you are more powerful... only a side effect... being more powerful is funny, interesting, ... sure but a side effect for me :-)

----

Dun'ilsar: I think that bringing new exiles, low level exiles and us to Dun'ilsar is not for the victory; it is only for the participation, for meeting others people... I think it will be very funny if we, in the first years, will build (without wanting that :-) a legend of being the easy clan to beat in a competition... "Against what clan are you this time, BigAndPowerfulFighter?" "Oh, really easy, we will be against the Winds of Dawn, an easy victory but we will certainly laugh a lot"... I really find this would be as much a success as to be first. Beware: if we win some competitions, I will not cry :-)

----

Helping in giving info's:
There is a difficult balance between helping and spoiling here. It even depends from one new exile to another one.
For example, even now, I don't know the location of all the cloth merchant (or perhaps I know, I am not sure I know all), but I prefer to find that myself; I don't have a map of Fire Island, I prefer to make one myself (or with Nunul, sure :-); I have learn a lot of things slowly, when meeting people, hunting with them... I prefer this way.
But, one the other side, I was happy that Rincewind showed me the hidden area in the meadow where the sunstones are sold; I was happy that At'n show me what was an orga eye; I was happy that Babajaga taked time to explain me some events (Qual, the orga camp attacks, ...).
Summary: I think we must explain something but not all... we must have room for the new exiles who want to explore and discover themself (as I am :-)... a difficult balance, really.

[Konoko]

Wow! Lots of good ideas Lai!

And as Farhope explains, "power" will just be something that happens. I don't think we'll be striving for power as a whole but it will happen as each of us within the clan become individually powerful. For instance, passing the second circle fighter test is an indication of power that I have. The same goes for healers passing their tests. Each of us has become more powerful.


I think it is important to have other side goals as a clan to act as challenges, etc for the more powerful exiles within our clan. I don't like the idea of leaving a clan because I think loyalty is a requirement. That said, myself and others left the drakes. I didn't like leaving the drakes as I feel an exile should be loyal to one's clan. I don't think I was disloyal to the drakes. I would like to think I am still friends with them. And I agreed with the idea of helping newbies and that's why I have joined another clan that has similar goals. I think we just have to make sure that Winds of Dawn has appeals for newbies and for the stronger, more powerful exiles at the same time.

I don't want Winds of Dawn just to be some training clan where newbies will join with us for a while and then leave us once they become powerful. I think we should have a clan that will appeal to exiles of all strengths and powers. I think this will be a growing process as we're not all super powerful yet so we don't know what types of things/needs/desires these more powerful exiles will want.

So I guess what I'm saying is I'd like to see it mentioned in the goals or some place that the clan will always take care of the newbies but still allow for growth, challenges, etc for the clan members as they grow stronger and more powerful.


I think this is something we want to keep in mind so we can stay away from stagnation for exiles and hopefully prevent exiles from leaving the Winds of Dawn after they become more powerful...


Konoko

[Konoko]

I think Dun'ilsar would be one such feature that would benefit both the strong and newbie exiles.

I agree with Farhope in that we're not going to win lots right away but I think we can win some. Not all challenges are based on clan strength or number of members. Some are writing contests and with Corwin, we can't lose! :)


Also, we don't have to win a dun'ilsar to advance in the rankings. Say we're 15th spot and we challenge the 12th spot. If we lose, we would still move up to the 14th spot. A clan that challenges another will move up a spot unless it would take them past the clan they are challenging.

So in other words, if we were 15th and challenged 14th and lost, we would not move up. However, if we were 15th and challenged 13th and lost, we would move up a spot.

I hope I explained that well! For more info on Dun'ilsar, please see http://dunilsar.ferindril.com/


I hope we can get entered in Dun'ilsar relatively soon. We will have to discuss this...

Kiriel, can you please add a Dun'ilsar topic on the main level of this forum?


We have approx 8 members right now with a few more interested in joining (or at least thinking about it). Here's hoping Lai and Tater decide to join us!!!!

As far as I can tell there are a few other clans with low numbers. I've heard the alliance of Zhoraks have only 8 members or something.

Also some clans have never even challenged another clan. They're just sitting on the list. We could try challenging some of these. If a clan doesn't respond to a challange within a week (I think it's a week) they forfeit.

I think we could do pretty well in dun'ilsar in that we're an active clan with a lot of enthusiasm.

And let me say again that we would not just have to challenge clans with arena battles or something, there are race contests, writing contests, etc...


Konoko
who hopes to be one of the Winds of Dawn Dun'ilsar contacts once we join Dun'ilsar!

[GrayGradi]

Braveheart

[Nunul]

The tactics page which I turn to again and again is provided by the Brotherhood of Independants:
http://plaza.powersurfr.com/mark_nelson/ClanLord/Tactics_Contents.html

Also useful is "Better living Through Fast Feet":
http://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bdrennen/cl/


This old dwarf has a hard time speaking plainly. 8)
In my previous post, to sum up, I meant that a large side goal could be the navagation of unknown areas (mapping...ie, Fire Isle) and the gathering of useful (and sometimes obscure...ie, the alchemy bowl) knowledge.

I think that the other members quite eloquently described most of my thoughts already, as far as additional clan goals. I especially agree with Farhope's thoughts on "outgrowing" clan goals as we gain in individual power. I won't muddy the thought process which she stated quite well already.

I think links to the helpful pages we now frequent could sustain a new exiles' thirst for knowledge until we have anything to add to them.

[Ender]

Lundar has just released his Fire Island map(been fun to help and watch his progress)

here is the large version
http://Lodge29.tripod.com/fimaplg.gif
and the small
http://Lodge29.tripod.com/fimapsm.gif

[Konoko]

Check out:
http://www.clanlord.net/guide/index.html

It's a newbie guide for Clan Lord. It looks pretty good!