Mystics and FMOCR

[Koric]

I'm curious what opinions people have about the whole "mystic impersonation" thing and the sabotage via court of the Full Moon Orga Camp Raid (FMOCR). I'm still trying to decide what I think about mystic politics, and I'd like to hear other opinions on that. On the other hand, my mind is pretty much made up that using the court system to kill a FMOCR is really wrong.

I wrote a rather long entry, summarizing the story and offering some opinions in <A HREF="http://dingram.phys.tcu.edu/koric.html">my journal</A>, if you are interested. But here seems to be a much better place for discussion than my tag board.

[Lundar]

Just to offer up some other perspectives...

Aravir has provided his thoughts on the events that transpired, along with three transcripts on his scrolls:

http://www.free-conversant.com/aravir/348

Xel and Neige have also provided scrolls with their opinions and accounts of the fmocr:

http://xel.puddleby.info/report.html
http://neige.pucks.org/trial/index.html

-Lundar<P>

[Koric]

Thanks for the links, Lundar! It's good to see some different perspectives, but I will say this about Neige's statements: I testified in a trial against Neige that Neige's primary motivation was to help his ability to be promoted from JM to FM. I did not say Neige is a selfish person. I simply repeated what Neige himself told me was his primary motivation, that to add credibility to Manticore would hinder the ability of other JM's like himself to be promoted.

I am left to wonder: If the mystic council policy were that promotion was dependent upon individual merit rather than having anything to do with the status of other FM's like Manticore, would Neige have still felt passionately enough to bring his case? If Manticore didn't threaten Neige's ability to promote, would he have brought the same case with the same timing and the same passion? I do not think so, and for that reason among others, I call into question his use of the court system.

As for us having plenty of time to come to testify and then return to OC4, I have serious doubts that this is plausible. Our group of irregulars was not a well-oiled machine, able to move briskly in and out of orga camps. As it was, our fast-as-possible retreat took over half an hour and very nearly failed in OC2. Had Neige brought his lawsuit a full puddleday before the raid commenced or something along those lines, then I don't think any of us would've had a problem with timing. Neige says we had time for the legal process to work properly and to defeat the orga. I say his arguments show a level of rationalization that is just as desperate as his poorly thought-out use of the court system. [Since I wrote this paragraph originally, Neige has edited his account to omit his original claim that we had plenty of time to participate in the trial and still finish the FMOCR successfully.]

There is a case to make against legitimizing Manticore, and Neige and the others who support him should continue to make it. The case in favor of a last-minute sabotage of a FMOCR via the court system is far weaker and should not be linked to the fundamental argument over spirits, mystics and clickers. Unfortunately, Neige has guaranteed that it forever will be.

[Anaeka]

There's a lot of nasty things regarding this whole controversy. Personally, I was super pissed that I wasted tons of time there all for nothing, but I suppose its all in the past and just gotta put it there, I suppose.

However, there is still something that I find really disturbing. It seems that the majority of the public (Outside of us that were doing FMOCR) Didn't even seem to care that dozens of exiles just had their time WASTED by this court case that made the whole FMOCR worthless. I just find this downright horrid. How can the majority of the public not give a damn that a whole bunch were in the OCs for two+ hours only for it all to be wasted? They seem believe that whatever reason Neige had for this idiotic use of the court system, apparently it justified putting a lot of exiles lives in jeopardy.

Where does it stop? Do we have to put all of them in a similar situation just so that they can understand what the hell happened?

I personally do not want to get into mystic business, becuase I could care less. Let them do whatever they have to do. But when you start penalizing the public, and saying that it is all justified. Then there's a damn problem right there.

[Fist of Fluff]

I read Aravir's and Xel's accounts of what happened. Neige's scroll is blank.

I was at the FMOCR. I knew that Manticore was not being clicked by his original PWC but it didn't matter to me. I was helping a Mystic (As I have done on many many occasions, in many different places).

I'm afraid that what Neige did, with the support and encouragement of Zorton and Soulmaster, has truly soured me on Mystics for a long time to come. I will no longer help Mystics as I have done in the past, I will no longer share with a Full Mystic when I enter the lands. On Saturday, the day before the FMOCR, the KI group took Neige to KI to do Scrystall mapping of the island. I shake my head when I think of all that Puddleby has done to help Mystics and then look at how they treat each other, and knowingly waste the time of so many people.

These are my questions:

Why was it a Journeyman Mystic who sued Manticore if it was an issue of the Mystic Council?
Why didn't Zorton or Soulmaster take Manticore to court instead of leaving it to a JM?
Why is it all of the Mystics involved are Darkhorse Clan members?
Does the Darkhorse Clan support these actions?
Will doing this get Neige a promotion to FM?
Who was Manticore stealing the Stone from? Certainly not a Mystic, because no other Mystic bothered to show up to the raid.
Should all Mystics be sued for theft when they try to obtain a Stone? They are stealing from the Orga, afterall.

Will my attitude toward Mystics soften? I'm sure it will, in time. For now I would prefer to distance myself from them. I have a bad taste in my mouth. [:(]

[Lundar]

First of all, let me try to make this absolutely clear: Students are promoted when they are ready, based on their indivisual merit. I have no idea why people have got it into their heads that Manticore is hindering anyone's progress-- this is completely false.

On the issue of the fmocr, I agree that the actions taken by Neige were rash and ill-timed. I don't think anyone thinks that wasting several hours of a group's time is a good thing to do. Personally, I have learned from past raids that this sort of confrontation on the day of the fullmoon is a Bad Thing, and ends up wasting everyone's time and creating ill will. Neige was wrong to oppose Manticore how he did, when he did.

That being said, I agree with Neige's sentiments. Manticore is an abomination, beyond being a mere "pocket mystic." Full Mystics are not mere chaperones, which ferry people to 'Noth and teleport people to the foothills. They are also the leaders of the Mystic Guild. How would bards feel if a Bard Master were bought and sold, or if the Grandmaster of the Puddleby Monatery were sold to some clicker who didn't give a damn about monks?

Finally, please don't lump all mystics together. We all belong to the same Guild, true, but that doesn't mean we all agree upon every single issue. If Zaroff decided to waste my time, should I stop helping all fighters? If Outcast were to harass me, should I then stop sharing with all healers? You're free to do whatever you choose, of course, but please be reasonable.

-Lundar<P>

[Koric]

I also have no idea why anyone thinks Manticore's status in any way should affect whether Neige or any other JM gets promoted. Of course, there's the part of the jury conversation where Jo Ma'ril tells Wangah Rah: "Manticore is the reason you aren't being promoted." Was this meant to be a joke? Still trying to figure that one out while also trying to figure out why Jo is willing to use Selucreh to go into Noth but actively oppose using Manticore to get a stone. It boggles my simple mind.

[Coriakin]

I wasn't at the raid myself, so I can't claim to know everything about what happened, but I guess I'll throw in my two cents. Wow, this turned out to be a rant and a half, so feel free to skip it.

I'm no mystic. I'm a bard. However, there are some parallels beween the bards' guild and the mystics' guild, as far as I know, so maybe I can use an a analogy to show what I mean. If you aren't interested, just skip the background.


It takes (or took, at least) a long time to become a bard. You have to write songs, learn music theory (if you don't know it already), and endure an irritating stint as a quester. Believe it or not, the Bard Council knows that this happens, and they (we?) know that aspiring bards hate the quester period. However, the structure stays the way it is. There is a VERY good reason for this.

Bards are ridiculously powerful. I could drive people away from town centre by playing annoying songs over and over. I could distract our slower-witted friends by playing during dangerous situations. (ooc: Hell, I could even crash everyone around me on a whim, if I wished)

So, how come I don't? It's quite simple: I worked hard to be a bard, and I'm not going to throw it away to pull some cheap tricks. And I was allowed to become a bard because I had proved to a group of other bards that not only could I write decent songs, but also that I would uphold the standards of conduct of the guild. There is a lot more to being a bard than just writing songs. You have to know what to play when, and what not to play. Playing Rakshasa's "The Duck" for a group of friends when they ask: Good! Playing "The Duck" in town square, surrounded by random people who haven't asked for it: Bad!

So, basically, to get back to the issue at hand, I picture a situation in which a bard suddenly changes, almost as though they were an entirely new person. Whether I would know this new guiding spirit or not, a few facts exist: This new person is NOT the old person. This new spirit has not guided the bard through the quester period, and auditions. Having shared experiences like those are what foster a sense of community among bards. It really is more than just playing songs on demand. I personally would not treat this person as a true bard, because they weren't a true member of the bard community. And if this changed person was a bard master, with authority over other bards, I would especially dissaprove of it.

Now, I consider a situation in which someone who didn't go through a true audition, but somehow made quester (there's a few people like that floating around), was in a position to become a full bard by getting another instrument, but I could stop them somehow. In this situation, I think I would try to stop that person, no matter how many other people were inconvenienced in the process. The reason for this is simple: Being a bard gives you plenty of tools perfect for snerting, and the only reason Puddleby still has bards is that we've managed to prevent any snerts from getting in. A few bards have toed the line a few times, but we've done a good job. And if I could prevent a possible snert from getting in, I would do what I could to do so. After all, look what happened to the Hall of Chivalry after a few less-than-honourable people got in. What's the going rate for knighthood, now? 2000 coins?



Anyway, my outlook on the whole Neige-Manticore trial thing is this: the timing was unfortunate but most likely necessary. I know many people say Neige could have sued beforehand or after, but neither would have had the effect of preventing Manticore from getting the stone. Neige et al. felt that Manticore hadn't proved himself enough to merit getting a stone, and took the necessary action. Personally, I think people are blowing the whole thing was out of proportion. 2 ooc hours really isn't that much time. HWC spent 4 hours waiting for a late train on his way to college, and made less fuss than some of the people involved in this. There's more to life than getting the most you can in the least amount of time possible. Isn't the struggle more important than the reward? Personally, I've done a few FMOCRs, and I have more fun during the actual battles than I do seeing someone with a stone. Anyway, yeah. That's my rant for the day. Sorry for it being so long.

Roc with the Slyphonics!
Coriakin

[Drue'Dreemi]

Hello,

I share Lundar's view, although my views differ on some points. Manticore truly is an insult to active Mystics, and frankly him getting a stone would have made things much worse. I agree such a stone could help groups of peoples to have more fun (If used more wisely than to avoid trees on KI), but not by using a mere pocket Mystic who you'd trash after use.

This said, I supported Neige and his actions and will still do so, the timing was awful but it was a need to prevent such an abuse to happen. Sorry if it wasted some peoples time.

To reply to you Koric, I see you are really good at twisting things, and defending a side yet not getting yourself too involved to keep the graces of another. You really well turned the arguments to your own advantage... Or to fit your posture.

Fist, to repeat what Lundar said, it'd be terrible from you to judge all Mystics for an action you disagree with. Neige acted by his own will, not to promote himself or gain favors, and surely was backed up by many peoples, including Mystics. You can't put everyone in the same bag just because you are mad at a few.

Zorton backed up Neige, and it was not to him to take the front as it was Neige's action. Period.

As for DH, I cannot speak for it, though it's not some DH ran action I'm afraid you may still be a bit over reacting from what hapenned.

Theft was as Manticore is nothing but a Full Mystic driven by a new PWC who did *nothing* to obtain this status, yet claims the right to use Full Mystic tools...

Most peoples who attended to this event, me the first, are still a bit "angry" or overreacting, but please think twice and don't judge so hastily. Neige's action was a last day solution, but it was not intended to create such a shitstorm.

I'm speaking for myself here, curse me if you wish, but I stand for what I value, as most of you do and I lost many friends last night... Sadly.

Dreemi and HWC

[Althea]

Hi. I'm afraid this post will be long.

From what I understand, mystics have repeatedly tried to talk to Manticore long before the raid -- he has heard objections to his clicker enjoying the training of a full mystic. From their perspective, him going into the power room to get a stone is akin to theft and abuse because he hasn't earned the right to use the stone.

There also was some attempt made to ask prominent members of the FMOCR not to help Manticore according to the accounts I've read and the visionstones I've seen. Because they couldn't stop Manticore from getting the stone, they did the only thing they felt they could -- sue him out of the raid.

While it could be argued that greater objections should have been raised, I think they did the right thing in suing him. I'll explain why below.

Some argue that you can't be opposed to "pocket mystics" unless you are opposed to all transferred characters. This POV, however, fails to account for the special nature of the mystic class.

Mystics are different from other classes. Like bards that Cori mentioned, their tests that have nothing to do with ranks. In fact, they get to earn their ranks after passing their tests. There is enculturation in a political system (intentionally built into the class by the GM who created it.) There's a series of relationships that are created in the process of becoming a full mystic, unlike healers or fighters. No other class has that requirement --its one of the things that sets the mystic class apart. It requires of the clicker that they follow the guidance and dictates of the mystic council. Whether you agree or disagree with the merits of this system, this is how the class was designed. All of this adds up to making a full mystic character very different than a high level fighter or healer. They are far more than simply the sum of their skills. Hence, transferring a mystic character is quite different from transferring a healer or a fighter.

Regretably, there is no in-game way to demote a mystic. My personal suggestion would be that FM's cannot be transferred as FMs, given the special requirements of the class. But until that happens, I think the actions of Neige and Zorton are justified.

If the raid members should be mad at anyone, it should be Manticore/Hidden for failing to disclose he's not a full mystic. In a way tho', it makes sense that he didn't disclose it. He didn't go through the process of becoming a full Mystic, and he really doesn't understand what the class is about. In essence, his being able to use FM powers are a bug.

Neige just stopped a bug from being further exploited.

[Althus]

50 points to Xel for the only unbiased report on the subject.

Lundar wrote:
Finally, please don't lump all mystics together. We all belong to the same Guild, true, but that doesn't mean we all agree upon every single issue. If Zaroff decided to waste my time, should I stop helping all fighters? If Outcast were to harass me, should I then stop sharing with all healers?
The mystic guild is, as you have said, different. If I don't like Outcast, as a 4th circle healer, I can do nothing to prevent a lower one from advancing. You, on the other hand, do have that power. The mystic guild is controlled, unlike either of the other ones, and therefore enjoys special power, and special responsibility. If you people were irresponsible enough to promote a Mystic that would put himself in the wrong hands, then I say it's your tough shit to chew, not the rest of the town's. Personally, I've never liked the mystic guild, and when you behave like little children, stabbing each other in the back (When one of your primary guidelines is "Help others who practice the craft"), it does nothing to increase your support.

What Neige did was absolutely abhorrent and reprehensible, and he and Zorton (who was seen previously counciling him on what to do) will feel the backlash from their actions for a LONG time. I've heard that there are plans being made to prevent Zorton from ever getting an orga stone again, through the same tactics he developed. Personally, I'll have no part in such petty bickering, but it seems like turnabout is indeed fair play.

[Himitsu]

Indeed, what makes a Mystic?

So, PWC Manticore may or may not have been the original PWC Manticore. This fact is taken as truth yet I have seen no proof one way or the other. Yet, for this post I'll follow this assumption and say that the current Manticore is not the original.

So, Manticore hasn't gone through the puzzles we have to solve or the tasks his mentor gave him or the endless hours sitting in town feeling like crap while you're trying to build up a reputation while being called names. Does that make Manticore not a Mystic? Heck, if PWC has been around long enough he probably already knows where the Mystic puzzles are and how to solve them. They really aren't that tough. The tasks I was given aren't that tough either and I don't think I'm any better or wiser because I completed them. I think anyone could complete them if given enough patience and hard work. As to the latter, everyone has felt like crap when starting out and trying to find a niche to fit, friends to hunt with, and ways to be useful and help others. Some go through this process quickly while it takes others a bit longer. So this idea that Mystics go through this harrowing process to get where they are is a bit funny to me.

So PWC now has a powerful Mystic with useful skills and he can either be selfish or selfless. What as PWC done? He helped 8 mystics get to Kizmia's Island for the Ethereal Trainer. He organized a FMOCR to take a powerful stone out of the Orga's hands and to use it for the betterment of Puddleby. What else has he done for the betterment of others? What else could he do for the betterment of others?

So because PWC isn't the same and because you think Manticore is a throwaway character (which is not backed up by facts either) you think it's okay to both punish those exiles who helped with the FMOCR and exiles in general? You think it's okay to let the Orga keep the powerful stone to do whatever evil they intend to do with it? The Orga are our enemy and by stopping Manticore from getting the stone you have strengthened the enemy. Indeed, I will even go so far as to say that those who support Neige's courtcase are traitors.

There are other ways to handle disputes like the one with Manticore and you chose the absolute worst way to handle it.

[Mehan]

Originally posted by Himitsu
Indeed, what makes a Mystic?


Liking Cheese. Duh.

*post edited so my ass stays out of this fight.*

[Aravir]

The report in my notebook is from an IC perspective, and Aravir obviously has a strong opinion there.

However, PWC Aravir doesn't have a particularly strong opinion on the OOC issues, so I thought I'd say something about them as well.

It seems to me that the OOC arguement is really between the Mystic Council and Delta Tao. The existing FMs don't want FM characters to be transferred (and I would hope they feel the same way about AM and JM characters), but Delta Tao currently allows characters to be transferred. Presumably the FMs have made their case to DT already, and will continue to do so, but the fact is that DT makes the rules.

It might be possible to find an OOC resolution in the mean time. Unfortunately, reciting "Manticore is not a full mystic" isn't doing any good. Of course he's a full mystic, the whole point is that some people feel he shouldn't be! Here's a suggestion... how about all the people who object to PWC Hidden buying Manticore put some money in a pool and offer to buy the character themselves? I don't know if Hidden would go for it, but it would work within the existing system.

I think it might also be an interesting IC story if it could stay that way. I've talked to several mystics who said "Manticore is insane." That's a good start! Unfortunately, the insanity story doesn't seem to have any depth to it--people go straight from there to OOC issues. Why not expand on it? Explain to other exiles why he's dangerously insane and doesn't deserve a stone!

[Kiriel]

There are two key issues here that are being intertwined but in my opinion are really quite separate.

1. Does Manticore still qualify to be treated as a full mystic?
2. Was it appropriate for Neige to use the court system to subvert the efforts of exiles to achieve a teleportation stone for Manticore?

First I will address #2. In my opinion, Neige's actions were both an extreme abuse of the courts and a huge slap in the face to all exiles involved in FMOCR. Regardless of #1, court cases should not be used as a time bomb to ruin the work of exiles. This sets a dangerous precedent and I don't believe the ends justify the means. There are so many better ways to have handled the situation and even if there weren't, that doesn't make timing the court case to interfere appropriate. If the court case had been held at any other time (and there was plenty of opportunity beforehand) then it would have been possible to treat the case on its merits, but instead Manticore was deprived a reasonable opportunity to defend himself, and the chance at having a more balanced jury, since the folks at the FMOCR had to avoid jury duty to continue their work while those biased against Manticore were prepared and available to be called.

In this case, it's my opinion that a reasonable course of action for Neige would have been to publicly decry the FMOCR. There have been some claims that if more folks at the FMOCR had known about Manticore's past, that they would have refused to help. It's possible this is the case, but yet Neige didn't even try to tell them- not one public sunstone message to discourage the raid, even though it was publicized over a week ahead of time and Neige and Zorton were around that day since before the raid began. In my opinion it is not Manticore's job to brief everyone at an FMOCR about his past- it was explained to most folks that there was opposition from the mystic council to his acquiring a stone, and anyone who asked for details was given them to my knowledge. In the past it has been that any mystic who could acquire the necessary support to achieve a stone via FMOCR has earned their stone- Manticore did the work to earn the support, and Neige was free to discourage his supporters publicly from participating. Using the court to subvert the work of folks who chose to help was not acceptable.

Now regarding #1, whether Manticore qualifies to be treated as a full mystic- that is the case of OOC issues reflecting upon IC events. In my opinion, although the change of clicker OOC does pose a problem, I don't think that this means that Manticore in his new incarnation is somehow incapable of being a good mystic. As far as I know, nobody's given him a chance to even try, and yet Manticore has done quite a bit of good work for the community. People object to his very existence but there are many other full mystics that people don't like and I don't think that makes them any less full mystics. In the OOC case, I think it really should be a choice DT should get to make- if they want mystics to be special, they should bump them to journeymen before transfer, or provide a mechanism by which the mystic guild can request a mystic be made journeyman if they have been transferred. The fact that the mystic guild currently as it stands can't remove full mystics makes it problematic, but they also provide no mechanism for a transferred person to prove themselves worthy again short of them demoting themselves (not sure if this is even possible without untraining) and hoping to be promoted again. I don't honestly believe that any transferred mystic who voluntarily did that would ever be promoted again by the guild because of their extreme prejudice in this matter, so I can't really say that it would be any more fair to Manticore to ask him to do this. I suggest that folks who don't like transferred mystics keep asking DT to provide a solution to the problem, and in the meantime at least give the mystics a chance to prove themselves inside the system instead of immediately treating them as a criminal.

Whether Manticore deserves a stone is particularly a touchy issue, because in my opinion, the stone is achieved by the FMOCR group, and they get to choose the mystic it goes to. Certainly the claim of theft was inaccurate since the stone did not belong to Neige or anyone else when Manticore tried to acquire it- unless he was talking about theft from the orga, which I don't believe Puddleby has considered a crime in the past (and if we do, let's have Zorton and Robin return their stones to the orga). In the past the stone has not appeared if a mystic the stone did not approve of came to claim it. Why not let the stone decide whether Manticore was deserving? Manticore has a ledger in the skill required for the stone- way more than any other mystic. He has also proven his willingness to use his skills for the good of Puddleby. In my opinion this makes him more deserving of the stone, not less, regardless of what changes the other mystics think he has undergone.

[Robin Greyhawk]

Neige's actions were rash and something I would have preferred not happen at this time. I will not say he was wrong. To acheive his goal of stopping Manticore, only a suit at the time he did would have worked. Suing earlier or later would not have prevented him from getting a stone. Those who think Zorton put him up to this are wrong. Zorton counseled him against doing it and served as witness only after he saw Neige would not be detered. I agree this was better than having Neige go it alone.

I am not concerned that people on the FMOCR were inconvenienced. Frankly, they should have known better. Not only did Neige ask them not to support Manticore, but many of them are regular readers of csmga, where the problem of Manticore has been discussed in the past. You should have known better. I'm disappointed that Manticore was able to generate that much support and I'm disappointed in who those people were. No one challenged him in the Orga Camp because we wanted to avoid the kind of arguments that people disliked so much in the past. No one thought that he could get enough to succeed.

The title of Mystic carries with it a great deal of responsibility. A great deal of training and evaluation goes into making a Mystic to ensure they are able to handle that resposibility. Manticore now has none of that training or evaluation. It's not simply an insult to what others have achieved. That's not really even important. He's not demonstrated he can handle the responsibility that comes with the power. I do not consider Manticore to be a Mystic and it is unlikely he ever will be.

Lastly, there is no relationship to the Dark Horse Clan. Dark Horse has a number of mystics and we tend to work together frequently. If you draw any 2 active mystics at random, there's a good chance they'll both be in Dark Horse, especially in our time slot.

Robin Greyhawk

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Althea
From what I understand, mystics have repeatedly tried to talk to Manticore long before the raid -- he has heard objections to his clicker enjoying the training of a full mystic.I have heard not a single peep from any mystics besides Selucreh, who is, ironically, a pocket mystic much as Manticore is accused of being. I have no intent of relegating Manticore to pocket mystic duty, but if he is continually harassed whenever he is out of the library, that may be what he becomes.

If the raid members should be mad at anyone, it should be Manticore/Hidden for failing to disclose he's not a full mystic.I find it hard to believe that anyone who hasn't been actively shoving their head up their ass could not-know about Manticore's past. I am not responsible for the actions of the ignorant.

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Robin Greyhawk
He's not demonstrated he can handle the responsibility that comes with the power.

Since I'm not going to give up Manticore, and will eventually get an orga stone no matter what you say or do (ever heard of a preemptive lawsuit?), you could just work with me to ensure that Manticore becomes and stays a good and responsible Mystic. But then again, that's not in the style of the guild, is it? Of course not.

[Jo]

Wanna know why I thought it was ok to use pocket mystics and now I turn about and say it's not? I'll tell you why.

First off, yes I've played a mystic before, and mystics don't advance by ranks. You put a new fighter in the library for 2 OOC years, he comes out and he could be 3rd, 4th, maybe even 5th circle. Put a new healer in the library for 2 OOC years, he comes out and is 4th circle pretty easily. Put a new mystic in the library for 2 OOC years, he's got a crapload of ranks but he's still an apprentice. Mystic advancement is _ENTIRELY BASED_ on the player's actions. Thus, when a mystic changes hands they are no longer qualified for whatever rank they've achieved.

Second, ever since I started organizing hunts (read: when I got strong enough) to noth, scarmis, and other mystic-required places, I noticed a big lack of mystic availabilty, and this pissed me off and soured me to full mystics as a whole. Moreover, I know several journeymen mystics who I feel are much better deserving of the title of full mystic than some current full mystics. So at the time, yeah, I'm all for getting into noth so I can hunt. I felt it wasn't fair that I should suffer because the mystic guild won't promote people.

Third, lately I've gained a lot of respect for full mystics (real ones!), especially Zorton, Robin, Sutai, and Valtrim. They've sacrificed a lot to help Yor and I explore the OOB and Foothills regions, and when they ask me for help, they get it.

What happened? Well, I spoke to several full mystic friends about why my journeymen friends weren't being promoted. I got various answers from various mystics, but they all agreed in one thing - The mystic guild is scared shitless about pocket mystics. It makes their job a joke. Why bother tipping Valtrim to open noth for you when you can have Thuja-bot Nyssa open for you and not ask for a tip? Why bother asking Robin to hold an orga stone for MONTHS at a time and essentially castrate his mystic abilities to one single thing, making his non-foothills clanning time very boring, when you can have Hiddencore teleport you to the foothills while he runs around with another character? Guess what, the mystic council isn't going to appoint a single journeyman mystic until either:

a) DT lets them demote full mystics who have been sold/transferred to other players.
b) The current pocket mystics set an example for future pocket mystics and stop doing what they're doing.

If you people were irresponsible enough to promote a Mystic that would put himself in the wrong hands, then I say it's your tough shit to chew, not the rest of the town's.

Actually that's YOUR shit to chew. The frustration of a dozen exiles at FMOCR at losing 2 hours worth of effort is jack compared to the frustration of 20+ journeymen mystics not being able to advance to full mystic because you think it's a good idea to _BUY_ your way into the mystic guild. So yeah, turnabout is fairplay, huh?

So for me, yeah it's pretty hypocritical to use a pocket mystic and then turn around and say "no, now it's not ok!". But I didn't know the reasons behind the lack of real live full mystics before, and now I do. And now you do too. You have a choice to say "hey it's ok to use pocket mystics, because we don't like the current full mystics" or you can say "look sorry, I'll untrain and start over, do the mystic bullshit and prove that I'm really worthy to be a full mystic". If Himitsu's right, what's the harm, huh? You should get promoted in no time if you're really that good, right?!

As for the timing, yeah that was pretty shitty. Neige asked me if I'd support him if he sued. I told him yes, but he'd better do it before FMOCR started. And as I was hunting during your raid, I told him if he plans to do sue, he'd better do it asap instead of waiting last minute. So, hey, I tried to make it less shitty, don't thank me all at once. ;)

In regards to using court as an OOC tool, I really hate it as well. But a month ago, I sent an email to HGM about certain people who abuse clan experience (you know who you are) big time - by using multiple throwaway characters and taking them out and then back into the library to reap the clan experience. Also, about people who run 2 accounts as healer bots to heal themselves instead of asking real healers to come heal them first. His response was basically "DT doesn't like it either, but people don't seem to mind all that much. If you really mind, sue them and see if people agree". So, I think Neige did the right thing, and letting Manticore go off would say to DT that we really don't give a shit about who plays who, and pocket mystics are great. Promote everybody and their sister, and let them give out their passwords so anyone can open noth! That'll make Full Mystic something to really strive for!

RE: The bkbombing and all that that's been going on, even more childish and sad, and it certainly doesn't help your position.

Fist:
* Why was it a Journeyman Mystic who sued Manticore if it was an issue of the Mystic Council?

Because Neige felt more strongly about it than Zorton, the only other full mystic on at the time, and was willing to take the heat. If Axell refused to heal you and you sued her, would you be willing to take the heat from _that_ lawsuit? I think a lot of people would be pretty pissed at you. :) It's not an easy thing to get up there and stand up for what you believe in.

* Why didn't Zorton or Soulmaster take Manticore to court instead of leaving it to a JM?

Soulmaster's a JM too, btw. See above.

* Why is it all of the Mystics involved are Darkhorse Clan members?

DH just has a high percentage of mystics. I betcha if Sutai wasn't on vacation he would be supportive of Neige too, then you could blame POS!

* Does the Darkhorse Clan support these actions?

Last I heard they were pretty upset about the timing, but supported their clanmate. I don't speak for them though.

* Will doing this get Neige a promotion to FM?

Anything but, it'll probably move him to the bottom of the list (where I'd assume he was already :))

* Who was Manticore stealing the Stone from? Certainly not a Mystic, because no other Mystic bothered to show up to the raid.

He wasn't stealing the stone, he just wasn't qualified to have one.

* Should all Mystics be sued for theft when they try to obtain a Stone? They are stealing from the Orga, afterall.

Yes, they should. We'll take it up in Orga Court after this. It's beyond the foothills, and only PMF has been there!

Honestly, there's nothing personal about all this, and I'm pretty offended at all the people taking sides and "withdrawing support". I just don't feel Hidden should be able to ride the back of someone's hard work while other mystics who work their butts off day in and day out to get promoted suffer. I like Hidden, Koric, and most everyone at that FMOCR, and I'm pretty hurt that you're all flipping out over this, bkboming people, calling names, etc. Stick to the matter at hand - does Manticore deserve an orga stone or not? Leave the name calling, bad karma bombing and whatnot to the PMF bashing!!! ;)

Seriously though, I find myself agreeing with Althea and Blitz, as I see their side of things more and more. Someone pinch me and check that hell hasn't frozen over. Thanks!

[Lundar]

Althus wrote:

<I>"The mystic guild is, as you have said, different. If I don't like Outcast, as a 4th circle healer, I can do nothing to prevent a lower one from advancing. You, on the other hand, do have that power. The mystic guild is controlled, unlike either of the other ones, and therefore enjoys special power, and special responsibility. If you people were irresponsible enough to promote a Mystic that would put himself in the wrong hands, then I say it's your tough shit to chew, not the rest of the town's."</I>

To clarify, Manticore was promoted long before my time, when there were only two player Mystics, and Manticore was promoted with the support of two GM controlled Mystics. I don't see how I, or most others of my Guild, can be held accountable for the promotion of the original Manticore.

Mehan wrote:

<I>"Fifth circle fighters are sold every day for real life money. I have a fighter, and I have worked hard to make her the fighter she is. If somebody sells their fifth circle fighter, is that not the same as selling a mystic?"</I>

No it's not, as I and Coriakin and many others have pointed out.

-Lundar<P>

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Jo
But I didn't know the reasons behind the lack of real live full mystics before, and now I do. And now you do too.
Ironic that the only person I've ever heard this explanation from is a fighter. Kinda feels like the Guild's position of secrecy came back and bit them in the ass, eh? Perhaps if they were just a teeny bit more open about what's going on, situations like this wouldn't arise in the first place.

You have a choice to say "hey it's ok to use pocket mystics, because we don't like the current full mystics" or you can say "look sorry, I'll untrain and start over, do the mystic bullshit and prove that I'm really worthy to be a full mystic". If Himitsu's right, what's the harm, huh? You should get promoted in no time if you're really that good, right?!
I have a better idea. From now, Manticore will be confined to the library, not coming out ever again until I have my own, earned, full Mystic character. It'll never happen, and so that character slot will be wasted for all time, but I'm too tired to argue anymore. It's not because I'm stupid, irresponsible, lazy or anything else like that. It's because it would be literally impossible for me to start a new character and not have everyone know who it was within days. A character like that would never, ever be promoted.

So, I think Neige did the right thing, and letting Manticore go off would say to DT that we really don't give a shit about who plays who, and pocket mystics are great. Promote everybody and their sister, and let them give out their passwords so anyone can open noth! That'll make Full Mystic something to really strive for!
As well, doesn't Neige's loss in court and subsequent jailing prove that we don't like Neige and he should be banned from the game forever? No? Of course not. The court is essentially a meaningless harassment tool, and nothing more.

RE: The bkbombing and all that that's been going on, even more childish and sad, and it certainly doesn't help your position.He who casts the first stone, eh? I've been getting constant bad karma since the FMOCR, just so you know that both sides are equally guilty of that.

[Mehan]

Originally posted by Lundar

Mehan wrote:

<I>"Fifth circle fighters are sold every day for real life money. I have a fighter, and I have worked hard to make her the fighter she is. If somebody sells their fifth circle fighter, is that not the same as selling a mystic?"</I>

No it's not, as I and Coriakin and many others have pointed out. [/B]

Hey! I wrote "Liking Cheese!" but oh well. *sighs* It really is the same. Bards are sold, fighters are sold, and healers are sold. You just don't want to admit it. If you didn't know Manticore was sold, it wouldn't have mattered to you! What if Manticore was sold to somebody you really liked? Your real life best friend. Would you still feel so deeply about the happenings? I don't think you would : )


Eventually this whole conflict will fade into the past, and we will have learned nothing from it. All that will have come from it are disagreements, the loss of friends over a petty argument, and the alienation of people who tried to stand up for what they believed in on BOTH sides of the spectrum. Perhaps there is more we could learn from this, perhaps not.

[Lex]

Originally posted by Anaeka
There's a lot of nasty things regarding this whole controversy. Personally, I was super pissed that I wasted tons of time there all for nothing, but I suppose its all in the past and just gotta put it there, I suppose.

However, there is still something that I find really disturbing. It seems that the majority of the public (Outside of us that were doing FMOCR) Didn't even seem to care that dozens of exiles just had their time WASTED by this court case that made the whole FMOCR worthless. I just find this downright horrid. How can the majority of the public not give a damn that a whole bunch were in the OCs for two+ hours only for it all to be wasted? They seem believe that whatever reason Neige had for this idiotic use of the court system, apparently it justified putting a lot of exiles lives in jeopardy.

Everyone that was in the FMOCR seems to make "I wasted my time" the main point of their complaint. Is that really what you're upset about? At least be honest.

Lex

[Althea]

FYI:
I posted a pointer to this thread and a summary of my pov on the newsgroup.

Jo, there are worse things than agreeing with me, I'm sure :)

[Lex]

Originally posted by Althus
What Neige did was absolutely abhorrent and reprehensible, and he and Zorton (who was seen previously counciling him on what to do) will feel the backlash from their actions for a LONG time.

I think you're overreacting. What Neige did was execute good enough timing to stop Manticore from getting a stone. It's not the end of the world. There will be other FMOCR's. And if enough of Puddleby supports Manticore, I suppose he'll get one.

Lex

[Hidden]

Oh gods. We may as well all just killfile this thread before Boris (clueless), Outcast (flamebait), and the rest of the gang arrive.

*whispers to Althea: "Thanks!"*

[Jo]

Originally posted by Althea
FYI:
I posted a pointer to this thread and a summary of my pov on the newsgroup.

Jo, there are worse things than agreeing with me, I'm sure :)

Yeah like agreeing with Klur!!! ;)

I'm just trying to lighten people up a bit, everyone's very tense about this. Hope nobody takes offense.

[Althus]

Originally posted by Lex
I think you're overreacting. What Neige did was execute good enough timing to stop Manticore from getting a stone. It's not the end of the world. There will be other FMOCR's. And if enough of Puddleby supports Manticore, I suppose he'll get one.

What if, next time you were out in the foothills, ethereal plane, KI, etc, I sued the key member of your group for some pointless reason with no prior warning, all for a personal grudge against you, and won. And the rest of you departed. And I showed no remorse whatsoever.

You're very good at flaming people whose shoes you've never walked in. Maybe some day you'll develop a sense of empathy, but who knows?

[Lex]

Originally posted by Kiriel
Now regarding #1, whether Manticore qualifies to be treated as a full mystic- that is the case of OOC issues reflecting upon IC events. In my opinion, although the change of clicker OOC does pose a problem, I don't think that this means that Manticore in his new incarnation is somehow incapable of being a good mystic.

True in theory. But, Manticore is never seen, EVER, unless he comes out for 5 minutes to open something. That has an effect on how people see the character, not just the PWC.

As far as Neige's actions, I think the timing was bad, and he could have made his point with a lot less bad feelings between people. But then, I don't feel as strongly about what FM's do as Neige does.

Lex

[Althus]

Originally posted by Lex
True in theory. But, Manticore is never seen, EVER, unless he comes out for 5 minutes to open something. That has an effect on how people see the character, not just the PWC.

Considering the character was acquired a little over a week ago, your argument holds very little water. With the same logic, I could say Lex will never pass 4th circle because since you haven't yet you're obviously incapable of it.

[Lex]

Originally posted by Hidden
I find it hard to believe that anyone who hasn't been actively shoving their head up their ass could not-know about Manticore's past. I am not responsible for the actions of the ignorant.

Well, to be fair, there are legions of exiles who know nothing about mystics. I could probably tell them I'm a full mystic and make them believe. They go to FMOCR because it's something to do. :)

Lex

[Althea]

"Oh gods. We may as well all just killfile this thread before
Boris (clueless), Outcast (flamebait), and the rest of the gang arrive.

*whispers to Althea: "Thanks!"*"


Hidden, I think this is important enough (a major bug in the design of a class) that it should be brought to DT's attention. As far as I know, that's the only forum GMs and Joe read.

[Lex]

Originally posted by Lundar
No it's not, as I and Coriakin and many others have pointed out.

-Lundar<P>

The training that fighters and healers get is every bit as important as what mystics get. Transferring PWC is not much different, it's just that mystics are open to a lot more abuse.

Lex

[Lex]

Originally posted by Althus


What if, next time you were out in the foothills, ethereal plane, KI, etc, I sued the key member of your group for some pointless reason with no prior warning, all for a personal grudge against you, and won. And the rest of you departed. And I showed no remorse whatsoever.

You're very good at flaming people whose shoes you've never walked in. Maybe some day you'll develop a sense of empathy, but who knows?

Well, I don't know if what I said can be considered flaming.

Sure, I'd be pissed. But if I knew for a long time Yor stole 3 shovels from Mehan, and Mehan sued Yor when he was in the FH, I wouldn't react the same way as if it came out of the blue. (all use of the name "Mehan" are purely coincidental)

:)

Lex

[Lundar]

Lex wrote:

<I>"The training that fighters and healers get is every bit as important as what mystics get. Transferring PWC is not much different, it's just that mystics are open to a lot more abuse."</I>

Only fighters and healers aren't trained to become the leaders of their Guilds, where their actions can have reprecussions which affect all those within their profession.

-Lundar<P>

[Althus]

Lundar - prove it.

[Mehan]

Originally posted by Lex
Well, I don't know if what I said can be considered flaming.

Sure, I'd be pissed. But if I knew for a long time Yor stole 3 shovels from Mehan, and Mehan sued Yor when he was in the FH, I wouldn't react the same way as if it came out of the blue. (all use of the name "Mehan" are purely coincidental)



Yor would never steal my shovels!

Wait.. that doesn't sound so bad.. Is that what they're calling it nowadays!?

/action sighs dreamily.

[Lundar]

Althus wrote:

<I>"Lundar - prove it."</I>

Prove what? That fighters and healers aren't trained to be leaders of their Guilds, or that Mystics are put in a position where their actions can have serious reprecussions to their entire profession?

-Lundar<P>

[Anaeka]

Originally posted by Lex


Everyone that was in the FMOCR seems to make "I wasted my time" the main point of their complaint. Is that really what you're upset about? At least be honest.

Lex

I'm pretty pissed off that I ended up wasting my time in FMOCR! There was a We Blew It competition going on at the same time! <G> Hey, that's all I really care about, as for the rest of this crap let it be handled by someone that knows what they're talking about.

With that being said, I feel I'll say something anyways! There are quite a few very valid points presented by both sides of this argument. Personally I think I'm caught somewhere in the middle of this situation, agreeing with one such point and yet agreeing with certain aspects of another conflicting view.

One thing I really wish I could see is if pocket mystics are truly looked down upon, I, as a member of the general public, would at least like to see some information about it. There seems to be a very thin line between maintaining secrecy and decided what the public should derive on their own in regards to how the council (and any other organizations) feel about certain things. Or wait, is it my reponsibility to go out and try and find all these things by myself? I don't know if it is, but I surely wasn't informed :)

Its truly hard to figure out exactly where this is going, with so much bad blood on both sides. I'm just sad its unfortunate that something like this has escalated to such an awful climax without the rest of us being aware of it when it was barely starting to boil (By us I mean myself initially because I'm not sure if everyone else is as clueless as me).

Oh well, just more babble from the general public, I guess healers such as myself don't really know what we're talking about. *shrug*

[Koric]

Originally posted by Drue'Dreemi
To reply to you Koric, I see you are really good at twisting things, and defending a side yet not getting yourself too involved to keep the graces of another. You really well turned the arguments to your own advantage... Or to fit your posture.
...
I lost many friends last night... Sadly.

I don't understand if this first paragraph is an attack or a compliment or a preemptive defense, but thanks! I think your problem is that I am criticizing you, yet I pretty much support your position. So it is damned confusing. Not to mention verbose. Two of my trademarks, I'm afraid. And I hope you don't count me as a lost friend.

Like I said, Manticore's position is arguable, and I tend to side with Neige on that one, especially now that I (finally) know the mystic guild's motivation for not promoting journeymen. I am glad to see so many agreeing that the court case timing was an error in judgement. I wish those of you on the jury who feel that way would have voted along those lines at the time, but time was short and emotions were running high. It happens.

If Manticore wants to get a stone, he can try again next week or the week after, etc. Eventually, if enough of the community supports him, he'll get one, court cases be damned.

Originally posted by Kiriel
In my opinion, Neige's actions were both an extreme abuse of the courts and a huge slap in the face to all exiles involved in FMOCR. Regardless of #1, court cases should not be used as a time bomb to ruin the work of exiles. This sets a dangerous precedent and I don't believe the ends justify the means.

What she said.

Originally posted by Robin Greyhawk
I am not concerned that people on the FMOCR were inconvenienced. Frankly, they should have known better.

Huh? How? Hell, it took a fighter (Jo) to explain to us what the hell the mystic guild is thinking. The fact that the mystic council is inconvenienced by the presence of pocket mystics doesn't concern me. Frankly, if they have a case to make about community support of pocket mystics, it is their responsibility to get out there and make it. The best thing that has come out of all this (and it is a really good thing) is that someone (Jo) finally came out and explained what the hell is going on behind the scenes.

Originally posted by Jo
Wanna know why I thought it was ok to use pocket mystics and now I turn about and say it's not? I'll tell you why.
...
I didn't know the reasons behind the lack of real live full mystics before, and now I do. And now you do too.

Thank you, Jo. Honestly, you have made a believer out of me, too. I'd like to see a mechanism to demote full mystics, and I'll be glad to join others in asking for it. Let's start with the ones who aren't on for more than about two ooc hours per month on average.

Until then, can we all at least agree not to stab ourselves collectively in the back when there are orga to kill? This debate has been informative and great and it SHOULD HAVE OCCURRED A LONG TIME AGO.

[Aravir]

The impression I'm getting is that the clickers for the full mystics see themselves as an OOC guild, not just an IC one.

[Felicity]

I was present at the FMOCR and I'm going to briefly state my opinion because I don't want to be lumped in with either side of this just for being there. I am guilty of not paying much attention to "who" the stone was for and/or if anyone was against it. I have attended one FMOCR in all of my years of clanning and after I saw it posted to the LIFE list, I thought crap I might as well go for something to do.

During a KI hunt last week, I heard discussions that Manticore was now clicked by another person. It wasn't said by who. I gave it no attention whatsoever. It just didn't matter at the time nor did it during the FMOCR. I am guilty of helping Hidden recruit prior to the raid as well. No one had ss'ed me asking me not to support Manticore. I just never gave it any thought, it was something to do on a Saturday afternoon.

Neige hunted with our KI group just the night before using his skristaling skills to map out KI. It was great fun having him along and I enjoyed helping him out. I am sad to see how so many exiles were quick to lash out at him for what he did. I hope Neige reads this because I want him to know that I did not spam the ss at all with flames, nor did I curse him for what he did and I certainly won't treat him any differently when I see him next. However, it was a disappointment for not being successful, but whatever eh. That doesn't mean I agree or disagree. I truly see both sides in this. I understand that mytics work very hard and truly wait a lifetime for their hard work to be acknowledged by the guild, yet if Manticore would become a truly active/useful full mystic for the community to use and not just a pocket mystic, then hurray for him. I'm just not going to hate anyone over this.

I know what it's like to feel so passionately about something and have your hands tied behind your back, Neige used the only means that DT gives us to use, whether it's right or wrong. To be honest I have seen the court system used for worse things in my time. It was a desperate measure for him to take, so be it. That's just my two cents thrown in so people know where I stand being one of the ones who were present during this whole thing.

[Drue'Dreemi]

I'm sorry Koric, but this last post was disgusting, I'll sum it up again:

"I'm very thankful to Jo for giving me the chance to once more change of side, since the one I first defended doesn't look like it will win after all, this to my own advantage, so I can take benefit of every single CL event and look, once more, like a pure and honest hero.

Sincerely,

Koric"

HWC Dreemi.

PS: Sorry this was too much, this is due to many change of sides in the past. No big offence meant. Yes we're still friend.

[Felicity]

Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion on this matter whether it be decided or changed or what have you. Hidden went from trying to get a stone at the beginning of this debate to storing Manticore in the library forever. Minds change and opinions get formed. Koric and I happen to discuss CL events quite a lot. I often change my opinions on things. I've certainly not been criticized for it.

If you remember during the second trial, Koric did not have anything to say to hurt either side as a witness. If he had truly "picked" a side, don't you think he would have used that opportunity to voice it? There were things that he certainly didn't understand about the supporters position, so he asked and Jo answered perfectly. I do not see a win nor a loose side to this debate. Does anyone else?

This attitude towards Koric is a surprise to me. It almost sounds like there's something more than just "this" discussion that's bothering you. I'm sorry if there is. Koric is not a "pure and honest" hero. That kind of makes me giggle =).

[Koric]

Originally posted by Drue'Dreemi
I'm sorry Koric, but this last post was disgusting, I'll sum it up again:

"I'm very thankful to Jo for giving me the chance to once more change of side, since the one I first defended doesn't look like it will win after all, this to my own advantage, so I can take benefit of every single CL event and look, once more, like a pure and honest hero.

As far as pocket mystics go, I've pretty much undergone the same hypocritical flip-flop as Jo (and the transformation of my opinion, as usual, I have chosen to publicize from start to finish), but I guess I get my ass chewed for it (while at the same time, I made a point to thank Jo for explaining himself). No "welcome to the club, I'm glad we talked some sense into you" but instead "you're such a fucking hypocrite". Sheesh. Fuck you, too, I guess. But I still agree with you, so there!

My position on abuse of the court system has changed from "it sucks" to "it still sucks."

I have changed my mind the past on other issues as well, explaining my reasons why. What, precisely, is wrong with that? Other than the fact that I have repeatedly violated the time-honored internet rule that you are not allowed to change your mind about anything ever, just get more stubborn and defensive about it.

And the whole "pure and honest hero" stuff I don't get. I guess if you've got a personal problem with me, maybe you can explain it in an email. This discussion isn't the place. If I seem to come off as trying to look pure and honest, then it's my bad, because I'm not! Understand me? I'M NOT. I'm just trying to figure out what's right.

[Nuvali]

Alright, I took a much needed nap after "We Blew It", and finally got to catch up with this thread. Quick OT: Thank you again Mehan, Kiriel, Althus, my fantastic teammates Anaeka and Elenis, and the rest of WoD for another exciting and brutally exhausting "Blow It" contest. Please ... let's not have another one of those for a long time. :-D

Ok, on with the rant. I'm well rested, so be warned.

I confess that my opinions about all of this have changed several times. Initially, I was one of those that Neige had asked to help prevent Manticore from getting the stone. I don't know Neige very well, but from an ic standpoint, I was very intrigued with the prospect ... until he made his case blatantly ooc to me. At that point, I was turned off by the matter. See, I don't know a damn thing about the mystic class--how it works, the magnitude of their potential power(s), their rules, etc. But I am, more often than not, impressed by the breadth of the different mystic characters--Aki (whatever happened to him?), Valtrim, Abe, Himitsu, and most recently, Aravir. When Neige tried to explain his motives to me concerning Manticore and the stone in an ooc fashion, that "breadth of character" dissolved in my mind. I've always looked at CL as no more than a game, and I really try to avoid ooc conundrums simply because they invite too many needles negative emotions on a personal level. (Yes, people can say they also invite "good" things, too--and I certainly agree.)

I never expected that Neige would take his motivations to the level that he did, and I was shocked when I heard what happened. I knew a lot of good people on that raid, and I immediately understood their frustration and anger at the time. I'm not sure if I would have reacted quite as angrily (for me, the "process" is normally more enjoyable than the end result), but it wouldn't be fair to try and diminish the harsh feelings of those who were on that hunt, considering that I was not there. What I do know is that I felt very guilty for not anticipating the seriousness of Neige's intentions and his subsequent actions--something that has nagged me for the last 24 hours.

So I read Coriakin's fantastic comparison with the Bard's guild, and nodded. Althea's thoughts? I nodded more. At last, Jo's tremendously insightful and gutsy explanation pushed me over the top.

I finally understand PWC Neige's intentions, and I think I agree with them. But I still have a very bad taste in my mouth, and here's why: there will be no winners in this debate. Worse, yet, because this entire complicated mess started (and is now ending) at the level of being OOC, people have been--and will continue to be--hurt. Friends have turned against each other, and a lot of good people are feeling pretty shitty right now--on a personal level--because of a silly game. Is it worth that? I gather that the real losers in this discussion are the ones who would reply, "Yes."

DT does need to step in. Fundamental steps *do* need to be taken concerning the architecture of the mystic class--if only to avert this kind of mess again. Not knowing a thing about how the mystic system works, I won't even attempt to offer suggestions. Well ... ok, I will offer a general one, but I have a feeling it is not feasible, any longer. Remove, or at least deflate, the ooc nature of its structure.

As far as criticizing anyone because they changed their mind: stunning. The whole point of arguing (last I heard) is to hope that the other side will see your vantage. Or is it more "cool" to entrench oneself in an opinion to the point where the entire conversation is doomed to a persistant lack of closure?

[Mehan]

Originally posted by Mehan
Eventually this whole conflict will fade into the past, and we will have learned nothing from it. All that will have come from it are disagreements, the loss of friends over a petty argument, and the alienation of people who tried to stand up for what they believed in on BOTH sides of the spectrum. Perhaps there is more we could learn from this, perhaps not.

What Nuvali said in a nutshell! <g>

I like what he said about how this is turning into an OOC thing. It should start IC and remain there, not flit on both sides of the line. That's a big thing that miffs me. The fact that the clicker thing is OOC.. well..


And yer welcome for WE BLEW IT! I won't be doing it for a long time again! It was hard!!! It's hard organizing that many things at once.

[Lilly]

I would like to encourage people to discuss constructive solutions to the problem at hand, and start trying to look at the positive aspects of what has happened -

a) A FMOCR occured - A solid invitation for entertaining orga ass-beating. It is a shame no stone was obtained but, hey! Just an excuse for *more* orga ass-beating next week. Fun fun!

b) the IC roleplaying value of having a rogue mystic is remarkable. And, if offered a reasonable chance, I believe the person clicking for Manticore currently could play the role to a tee, without endangering the current way the guild of mystics operates. This is an opportunity to expand into realms of play that havent been explored yet, and such an opportunity shouldnt be passed!

That said, i would like to say that the opinions of everyone have always been welcome here, and they always shall be, but I can make an educated generalization that most people who read this forum are frusterated with mud-slinging and character-assaults - they are here to discuss Clan Lord and how to enrich it, and the key people in this discussion (ie the people who can resolve it) have been forced into defensive positions because so many people are telling them their attitude is "right" or "wrong". No enrichment will come from that sort of judgement. It is now time for us to discuss how we can take the opportunities that the situation offers so that everyone gets what they want out of this.

Here is my first idea, which is open to suggestion, constructive criticism, alteration:

To anyone that is not Manticore: Give him a chance to actually prove himself. Instead of harrassment, bk-ing, suing, etc - see that he is offered the guidance necessary to operate at the level his abilities have given him, without being condescending.. And to Manticore - take the guidance offered, without being condescending to those whom offer it. If this doesnt resolve the issue in a reasonable amount of time, then figure out something new that does.

Arteress Lai

[Noah]

Originally posted by Mehan


Hey! I wrote "Liking Cheese!" but oh well. *sighs* It really is the same. Bards are sold, fighters are sold, and healers are sold. You just don't want to admit it. If you didn't know Manticore was sold, it wouldn't have mattered to you! What if Manticore was sold to somebody you really liked? Your real life best friend. Would you still feel so deeply about the happenings? I don't think you would : )


Eventually this whole conflict will fade into the past, and we will have learned nothing from it. All that will have come from it are disagreements, the loss of friends over a petty argument, and the alienation of people who tried to stand up for what they believed in on BOTH sides of the spectrum. Perhaps there is more we could learn from this, perhaps not.

Mehan, I find your post very wise. Moreover, it brings me the opportunity to discuss the history of Manticore.

As Lundar stated earlier, Manticore was promoted to Full Mystic a very long time ago. I recall the original PWC for Manticore (Adam) telling me how hard he worked, clanning at least four hours a day. His devotion paid off, as he was given the privledge of being a Full Mystic.

He stayed in the lands long after his promotion, but eventually he began to clan less and less. He soon lost interest in Clan Lord, and he expressed the fact that he was considering quitting. Upon hearing this, I offered for him to put Manticore on my account, thus keeping his character alive and saving him from being deleted. Adam agreed to this, and he gave me access to Manticore for the time being until his account expired. Adam basically taught me everything that he knew, while I used Manticore and he used Noah.

At this point in time both Adam and I played as Manticore, although Adam continued to play less and less. This went on for awhile with no problems even when Manticore was on my account and I was using him regularly. Surely enough though, a couple observant mystics noticed that I was not the original PWC. I believe Raldin was the first to notice, and he was extremely nice about it. Although he showed signs of concern at first, he soon accepted the fact that I was the new PWC for Manticore (I even joined his clan).

While using Manticore I had Full Mystic abilities, yet I was not signed up for the mailing list. I was perfectly fine with this, as the mystic meetings served as summaries of what was being talked about on the list. However, the talks eventually became focused on Manticore, as the other Full Mystics realized that I was not the original PWC. Even though they discussed it on the mailing list, nobody took action.

Life went on as usual until a friend did a favor for me (he let me use a space on his account) and I followed up by doing a favor for him (giving him access to Manticore). When I look back upon this, it seems very irresponsible. This person did not have the experience of being a mystic that the original Manticore had, much less the experience that I had. However, I knew him OOC and I trusted him. Moreover, nobody complained (or noticed?) that the PWC for Manticore at that time was the third PWC and not the second.

It wasn't until the end of August that I decided to permanently quit Clan Lord by giving away all my characters and canceling my account. I gave Manticore to the person who already had access to him, the third PWC.

I really didn't want to throw away Manticore's abilities. After all, he has a Training Ledger in knowing how to us the orga stone. Surely if he had such a stone his powers could be very useful.

Anyway, I completely understand why there is so much debate about whether Manticore "deserves" his abilities, and the answer entirely depends on whether you are looking at the situation from an in character or out of character perspective. Of course neither I nor the current PWC for Manticore went through the work that it took to become a Full Mystic. The fact of the matter is that the original Manticore has not played Clan Lord in two years.

It is rather of humorous to me right now that when a "non-legit" mystic remains dormant in the library, nobody cares. But when he tries to do something which could possibly be extremely useful for Puddlebian society he is dragged to court and tormented with bad karma. I don't think I would have that view if I actually played Clan Lord, but I can't help but chuckle at how things are right now.

-Noah, PWC for Manticore for the past 2 years

P.S.
The character Manticore has never been sold or bought. He has only been given to another with full permission of the owner and with the intention of keeping the character alive.

[Manticore]

Originally posted by Lilly
a) A FMOCR occured - A solid invitation for entertaining orga ass-beating. It is a shame no stone was obtained but, hey! Just an excuse for *more* orga ass-beating next week. Fun fun!Unfortunately, that opportunity will not arise at a reasonable hour again for several months. Probably just as well, though.
that most people who read this forum are frusterated with mud-slinging and character-assaults - they are here to discuss Clan Lord and how to enrich itAt the moment I'd be quite happy with not being lynched by several of my bloodthirsty former "friends".
And to Manticore - take the guidance offered, without being condescending to those whom offer it. If this doesnt resolve the issue in a reasonable amount of time, then figure out something new that does.This is my favored solution, and I believe it was proposed before, with little to no effect. I maintain little hope that it will.

Until then from the Library,
I bid you adieu,
Mystic Manticore

[Ugh]

Hello, this is my first post to this NG.

I was able to attend the event, up to OC3.

I saw Manticore was opening the snells, and I figured he was getting the stone. I didn't know him, but like every time before, I did my job to the best of my abilities so that he, the chosen Mystic could get a stone.

It was a difficult task to reach OC3 as it usually is. I fell more then once. I was chained or healed in a very short time. I sensed the mood of the highly skilled group was to keep trying untill they made it. The group was fully capable of aquiring the stone im my opinion, and were almost there when I had to go.

Today I heard the events of the lawsuit, and that alot of people were upset that there hunt was spoiled. This brings to mind some questions about freedoms we have or maybe never really had.

From my past recollection, using the court system to interrupt (and ultimately ruin ) a groups hunt is considered bad taste, isn't it?

Yes, Neige, you have the right to do so.

Doesn't everyone have the right to try for the stone? If Manticore has a sunstone next to his name, he is a DT sanctioned Mystic. If there was a flaw in that process, I think it would have been preferable that you take up your beef with Joe, instead of ruining their entire hunt.

Neige, you seem to only perpetuate my belief that some Mystics want to hoard all the stones to their select few. Don't forget no mystic would even have a stone if it wasn't for the help of everyone else.

Right now the 'Brions are ready to deal on buying these stones. But that's another subject. That your council holds an iron fist to any Mystic that would sell one seems very likely. And we may not see for years what enhancements they will add. That story is on hold because the Mystic council has the power and desire to stop it. Whether that's good or bad is another thing.

My final point for Neige, is that as exiles, we have a basic right to go and hunt wherever noone else is. And if noone else was trying for the stone, it really wasn't fair to use the court system to stop it. If your council can't control your Mystics, is it your right, Neige, to spoil the hunt for everyone else, including Manticore? I would think we'de be better off with a grand master in using the stone, having the stone. BTW for all this trouble to get them, what have we as a group actually recieved in return? Where's the reciprocity?

Sir Ugh
Knight, OCCG

[Connie_Crete]

Originally posted by Kiriel
There are two key issues here that are being intertwined but in my opinion are really quite separate.

1. Does Manticore still qualify to be treated as a full mystic?
2. Was it appropriate for Neige to use the court system to subvert the efforts of exiles to achieve a teleportation stone for Manticore?


Actually, the two issues are separate but not independent.

If Manticore deserves to be a mystic, then he should have been allowed a shot at the stone. If Manticore does not deserve to be a mystic, then within the system he should be stopped. Since the mystic system has no way to strip a mystic of his title, using the court system was justified. Furthermore, Neige's timing was proper, because had he sued before or after, this discussion would still have been non-existent.

I realized there is another possibility. This is a mystic matter and the general exile community should not have an opinion. In that case it is possible for Manticore to not deserve to be a mystic and still get the stone. The mystic council has known of Manticore's condition for years no action has been taken, therefore if he has the capability he should have gotten the stone.

In terms of time wasted, I can empathize at the disappointment of not getting the stone, but time-wise how is it different than when a mystic tries, but just doesn't get the stone? Instead of "the mystic doesn't have enough training" which in this case is false, maybe "the magician left the stone in his other sash."

I myself see nothing wrong with the trading of "spirits." I can see from a mystic or bard's point of view, this cheapens all the trials and tribulations they go through to get their status. Frankly, they are right. This just means you should be careful who you sell/give/ebay your character to, not that the practice should only be open to some.

I also see nothing wrong with using the court system ic or ooc in this manner. Ic Manticore is possessed and has not the background for the power he wields. He should be taught, not shamed into the library. Ooc, because Neige felt Manticore's current clicker should have to jump through all the mystic hoops Neige himself is working on the court mechanic allows Manticore to be stopped in this instance.

Connie's clicker
/narr because Connie still "caint find her way outta tha liberry and dont care nuthin 'bout no politics."

[Dandelion]

I've made a couple of dozen starts to this and thrown them all out.

I had quotes and full colour sketches with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one ...

This is something I feel very strongly about and have for a long time. There's just too much to say! So, instead of all of the in-spite-ofs and whiles, I think I'll just say that I support Neige in this and would be happy to discuss it face to face in town.

[Althea]

At the moment I'd be quite happy with not being lynched by several of my bloodthirsty former "friends". -- Manticore

While I did not see anyone threatening Manticore or Hidden, the following did happen on the sunstone:

8/31/02 3:35:51p Hidden thinks, "Neige, I promise you, you will pay DEARLY for this"

8/31/02 3:53:34p Hidden thinks, "The FMOCR group has decided that an appropriate punishment for neige will be to put him in jail for 2 ooc hours for each one of us."

8/31/02 3:53:54p Hidden thinks, "This might be split with Zorton as well, no decision on that yet."

8/31/02 3:55:45p Hidden thinks, "Jury members, if you voted innocent, now would be a good time to not get yourself BKed and sued to hell by telling us"

8/31/02 3:56:28p Hidden thinks, "FMOCR people, we've almost got Neige in the red, keep it coming."

8/31/02 4:01:32p Hidden thinks, "One jury is insubstantial. Neige will pay, no matter."
8/31/02 4:16:26p Hidden says, "I don't think court will work until the Neige apologists are gone"
8/31/02 4:16:52p Hidden says, "But there are PLENTY of other ways to get back at him"
8/31/02 4:34:41p Hidden thinks, "FWIW, the people who voted guilty on the original jury are assumed to be Ogant, Clyde, Ledward, Gunslinger, and Straka."

8/31/02 4:39:07p Hidden ponders, "Meph, Neige is Zorton's 'bitch'"

8/31/02 4:41:21p Hidden says, "I suggest we not dwell on this anymore. We will continue to punish Neige, and succeed next time."

[Connie_Crete]

Originally posted by Dandelion
I've made a couple of dozen starts to this and thrown them all out.

I had quotes and full colour sketches with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one ...

ya too huh? It tooked my clicker ferEver ta git her thoughts straight and then -bam- ya caint post. Thank goodness fer tha fact she were usin EvilWord ta spellcheck so she finally gotted her thoughts out.

Hopin yer havin a Labor Day dinner what that caint be beat.

Connie

[Himitsu]

I was thinking about Coriakin's comparison of the Mystic Guild to the Bard Guild, and while there are some similarities there are some differences.

Mystics are promoted after completing certain tasks and proving that you have what it takes to be a good Mystic just as Bards are. The requirements are different but the promotion method is similar in that they aren't based on ranks alone.

However, Mystics do have ranks and it can take hundreds of ranks to be good at any skill. Manticore probably has at least 100 Mentus ranks, 550 for the teleportion skill, I'd be surprised if he had less than 300 ranks to have enough mental energy to use the teleportation skill, some ranks in illusion breaking (probably 50 at the least but maybe more), and some in other skills such as boosting. Manticore probably has around 1250 ranks and that can't be duplicated by just anyone quickly even if three full mystics worked hard to promote a FOTB exile to full mystic as soon as possible.

I think that instead of driving Manticore into the library because he hasn't completed the tasks other mystics have, you should work with him to help him develop these skills so he can be a great mystic. Would you rather his ranks go for nothing? Would you rather have the original PWC's efforts go to waste? Would you rather have our enemy, the Orga, keep the strange stone and gain more power which they might use against every exile? Would you rather have one less Full Mystic regularly walking the lands?

While I believe that both Bards and Mystics need a way to fairly expel a member of their guild, either directly or by working with Delta Tao to come up with a procedure, saying that Manticore can't be a good mystic is leaping to a conclusion with looking at what positive could be gleaned from a less-than-ideal situation.

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Althea
While I did not see anyone threatening Manticore or Hidden, the following did happen on the sunstone:

Funny how you never gave any context for any of that, nor anything I was responding to. But if you want to play the quote game, I'm up for it. (Edited: Removed all but relevant quotes. I made my point. Ask me for a complete quote record if you want one.)

2/2/02 10:55:05p Noah says, "Only morons save dumbass quotes."

3/4/02 11:36:22p Elenis Reyav says, "This condom is more fashionable than you'll ever be ;p"

7/15/02 11:13:24p Althea whispers, "is it bad form to make out in court?"

[Althea]

To anyone that is not Manticore: Give him a chance to actually prove himself. -- Lilly


As a transferred character, Noah let others play Manticore.

8/31/02 4:10:48p Hidden thinks, "I was not Manticore on that raid. Soulmaster is lying."

As Manticore's current PWC, Hidden lets others play him too, apparently.

Basically, Manticore is a tool in character form that a group of people wish to use. This is one reason why I will continue to assert he's not a mystic, doesn't deserve to use FM powers and should be opposed at every turn. I also don't know a single FM or journeyman that thinks otherwise. He is a slap in the face to every spirit that's tread down the mystic path.

I have nothing personal against those who click/use Manticore. I simply think that pocket mystics are game destructive and I'd like to respect those who've invested the blood, sweat and tears involved in learning to truly suck. ;)

[Althea]

Hidden, do you have a point?

There's nothing out of context in what I posted. Is there another way you wish to assert your words should be taken? That you were just joking?

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Althea
8/31/02 4:10:48p Hidden thinks, "I was not Manticore on that raid. Soulmaster is lying."

As Manticore's current PWC, Hidden lets others play him too, apparently.Manticore was played for that short period by a Mystic, since I felt that I wasn't capable enough to lead the raid AND manage Manticore at the same time due to some unforseen hardware problems. (My normal dual-monitor setup isn't active at the moment, so I can't see both character's views).
I also don't know a single FM or journeyman that thinks otherwise.Funny, I can name several. I won't though, since I would rather not they suffer the same hounding I have.
I have nothing personal against those who click/use Manticore.I have nothing personal against you either. If someone argues with me, I'll argue back if I'm unconvinced.
I simply think that pocket mystics are game destructive and I'd like to respect those who've invested the blood, sweat and tears involved in learning to truly suck.Real healers and fighters also invest blood, sweat, tears, and Mystic corpses in their professions. Would you agree that a pocket horus healer cheapens the entire healing profession? Then why haven't you publicly decryed library characters used by your own clanmates before attacking an easy target like me?

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Althea
Hidden, do you have a point?Just as much as you do. How much that is I leave for you to decide.
There's nothing out of context in what I posted.
So quoting me without the context of what I was responding to, and without acknowledging that I did not have a complete set of data points to act on, merely to make me look like an ass, is fine, legal, and in context? Honestly, I'd have expected better of you.
Is there another way you wish to assert your words should be taken?If you wish to debate at length the semantics of things I said in anger (being freshly wronged), speak with me in private. That may be more difficult to do as of late, since I have largely retired to the library to weather the storm.
HWC was just accepted into the Asheron's Call 2 beta test, so you can expect to see a whole lot less of me except when I'm on raids with my friends in CoNGA. I expect some to mightily pleased by this. I am too. CL has become more annoying and frustrating for me with every passing day recently, but that's a subject for another rant.

[Lex]

Originally posted by Hidden
Real healers and fighters also invest blood, sweat, tears, and Mystic corpses in their professions. Would you agree that a pocket horus healer cheapens the entire healing profession?

I agree that it does, but I often pull my healer (who has no real specialty) out of the library for 5 minutes just to heal people, so I can't really get too upset about other people doing it.

I'm curious if people would feel different if A) Manticore was played often, and B) he wasn't played at the same time as another char clicked by the same person.

Lex

[Althea]

Hidden, you made some statements below about being "hounded into the library" and suffering bk abuse, seemingly trying to set yourself up as some martyr. I found it ironic in light of what a bully you came off as during the episode. Your threatened jurors, and the holy hell of Hidden's retribution upon anyone who had an opinion in support of Neige or who voted on a jury in a manner you disagreed with. Not to mention your threats on Neige.

"Semantics" isn't an issue.

Emotions are indeed running high in this. I know you're going through a hard time, but I hope you'll let up on the "I'm so abused" rhetoric. You give far better than you've gotten.

As for pocket healers, that's also a different issue. There were some great posts made by Cori and Jo regarding why mystics are a special case.

They're probably in the first page of posts on this.

I won't be back until later in the day (and I'm not sure I'm going to be as vocal here -- I don't wanna "dominate the rap jack") so if you have something more to say addressing me, don't mistake my several hours of silence for something its not.

[Delirium]

OOC

With all due respect to Cori, Jo, and Althea, the issue of "Library healers" and "Library fighters" is really the same thing, particularly when it comes to stuff like Ledgers. The basic issue is that person A puts a lot of blood, sweat and tears into something, while person B takes the easy way. Person A winds up feeling a great deal of resentment towards person B and person B's actions make it harder for person A to achieve their goals.

A lot of effort also goes into planning a raid, so I can understand why people were pissed at the court case too. Lots of bad feelings to go around, and no one involved winds up looking good.

There are several characters that have changed hands in CL, and I think Lex's question about how people would feel if Manticore was played more is a good one. IC, I think of characters who change hands as being possesed, and, as such, I tend to shun them. If Hidden played Manticore as a possesed heritic mystic, it could be a lot of fun for everyone. But I guess there are too many bad feelings at this point for that. Honestly, characters changing hands does bother me a little, but I like to deal with it IC and all this has gotten way OOC. IC can be fun for everyone, OOC gets mean and nasty.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think having a possesed heritic Mystic would be really fun. Rather than seeing Manticore locked away in the library, I'd like to see him out and about. Please play Manticore more Hidden, or find someone willing to! I'd be willing to do so myself and take the heat for doing so, but HWC Hidden and I have had our differences in the past, so I doubt he would take me up on this. Still, the potential for this story-line is great!

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Althea
Hidden, you made some statements below about being "hounded into the library" and suffering bk abuse, seemingly trying to set yourself up as some martyr.I'm no martyr, it's an annoying position. I'm just tired as hell and trying to put as much as I can to rest. I don't think I'll say any more on this, because whatever I say tends to get misinterpreted. (Not your fault, my style of speech is easy to take whatever way you want. It's just annoying to me when I say one thing and another appears.)

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Delirium
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think having a possesed heritic Mystic would be really fun. Rather than seeing Manticore locked away in the library, I'd like to see him out and about. Please play Manticore more Hidden, or find someone willing to!
I've already made up my mind and I'm sticking with it. Until I have my own full mystic or have quit CL and thus no longer have to take the heat for it, Manticore will remain locked safely away in the library, untouched. I just don't want to deal with the existing Good 'Ol Boys Club being annoyed that I didn't have to be hazed to get let in.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Delirium
OOC

With all due respect to Cori, Jo, and Althea, the issue of "Library healers" and "Library fighters" is really the same thing, particularly when it comes to stuff like Ledgers. [...]With all due respect Deli, I disagree. There are many differences and many people have pointed them out. A simple comparison is this: create 3 new characters, a fighter, a mystic wanna-be and a healer. Park them in the lib for a year. Take them out of the lib and you have a strong fighter, a strong healer and a not-a-mystic.

This is not to say that fighters and healers do not sweat and work as hard as mystics. Not at all. It says that the mystic class is designed to prevent lib characters, and that it's not possible to create a FM the same way as you can create a 4th circle healer.

It's no disrespect to fighters or healers, because all classes are much more than just the sum of their ranks. Fighters and healers with less ranks can be much better at their respective skills than the equivalent lib-character because of experience, relationships created and maintained over time with other exiles, knowledge of other people's style or strength/weaknesses etc. Someone creating a purely lib-healer would be a poor healer. And someone using a lib horus-healer, for example, does cheapen every other healers out there, that I agree completely with.

Drablak

[Nunul]

I am mystic...I am healer...I am fighter.

CL is about roleplaying.
When I (that other guy) was invited along to help out on the raid, I saw it as a chance for IC adventure. I'd like to think that even if we skirt the line of OOC and IC while we play, most people don't think of the guiding spirit behind the characters while in the lands. There are those who I communicate with so regularly OOC that the OOC/IC line is VERY blurred. (you know who yunz are)

I was a pissed cousin of a dorf to say the least when the mystic I was helping was yanked out of our raid. But you know what? I have NO REASON TO GO OUT OF CHARACTER TO FEEL THE OUTRAGE.

We who were on the raid were wronged. Period.

Library this, library that. Who the hell cares?
Pocket this, pocket that.
I dont give a good goddamn how the characters I interact with gained their ranks/positions. I am my own characters...those characters react to the IC things that effect them.
The saddest thing I hear is that people are so preoccupied with the HSIWCs.
If the "pocket" characters have a pulse, I interact with them.
If the "library" characters have a pulse, same same.
If NPCs like the Brions have a pulse, I interact.

Do I care that the brions have powers that "POOF!" appeared out of nowhere? They suddenly appeared in the lands...does anyone really care about their friggin programming background?

All those who are whining about the work, the TOIL...the DRUDGERY that they went through, and how much it sucks that someone else got it easier... You lose my respect.
It is what it is...deal with it. IC!
If you choose to IC yank a character away from a hunt, you'd better anticipate my IC wrath! :mad:

Each of us is the GM of our own characters. No matter how we obtained those characters. Lets all put a little more effort into being ourselves rather than looking under the cranium of our neighbors.

HWC for a fighter spokesman for a mystic-type who is considering withdrawing into the library until such time as his guild puts it's IC policies/affairs in order.

[Drablak]

I am not sure if you were (over-) reacting to my post Nunul, but in case you were I'd like to say that I was just answering Deli on one of her comments about lib-characters being equal.

I have not positionned myself on the fmocr issue at this time, because my views are not simple (in the sense that I am still on the fence on a couple of issues).

I can say that this discussion has been very productive IMO and I have changed ideas about many of the relevant issues.

If Nunul is outraged IC, that's quite ok. I can understand everyone who was on the fmocr being frustrated. But your last post seem to indicate that HWC/Nunul is frustrated OOC and doesn't give a damn about anyone else's frustrations or care if there are more than one issue at hand. Seems a little simplistic to me.

Drablak

P.S. oh, and Nunul wasn't pulled out of a hunt fwiw. IC, there is no real reason for Nunul to say that. The Fm was pulled out of the fmocr, which means the fmocr was all for nothing. Nunul still hunted. His raid was unsuccessful, but he still bashed some orga, so who cares if the mystic got the rock or not? Oh, right, there wasn't the usual beerfest afterward! Now that's why Nunul should be pissed (and not in the non-american meaning) ;)

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Drablak
If Nunul is outraged IC, that's quite ok. I can understand everyone who was on the fmocr being frustrated. But your last post seem to indicate that HWC/Nunul is frustrated OOC and doesn't give a damn about anyone else's frustrations or care if there are more than one issue at hand. Seems a little simplistic to me.

Can you fault me if I see it as simplistic?
Lemme try to clarify: HWC DOESN'T give a damn (at least at this moment...his POV could/may change in the future) about the OOC reasonings.

*Nunul is outraged IC at the events that transpired. He is 100% in support of those who were on the raid.

*HWC for Nunul is outraged that people are so preoccupied with judging someone elses clicker that it would effect one of his characters IC. HWC was in the body of another AT the raid. THAT character and Nunul are pretty close and catch up with each other whilst in the library.

Originally posted by Drablak
P.S. oh, and Nunul wasn't pulled out of a hunt fwiw. IC, there is no real reason for Nunul to say that.

I'm terrible (I admit) at separating my posts into IC and OOC. :rolleyes:
That posts was mostly if not all voiced OOC...by Nunul, as I like to think everyone is not privy to my other character's names.

I'm just (me, HWC) sick of hearing people trying to justify the acts because of OOC reasons. The IC gloss-over is a damned weak argument for putting ANY group of exiles in a difficult and dangerous position.






-bacon

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Drablak
I am not sure if you were (over-) reacting to my post Nunul,


Nope...wasn't [;)]

Deli's post just got me thinking

[Lex]

Originally posted by Drablak
With all due respect Deli, I disagree. There are many differences and many people have pointed them out. A simple comparison is this: create 3 new characters, a fighter, a mystic wanna-be and a healer. Park them in the lib for a year. Take them out of the lib and you have a strong fighter, a strong healer and a not-a-mystic.

This is not to say that fighters and healers do not sweat and work as hard as mystics. Not at all. It says that the mystic class is designed to prevent lib characters, and that it's not possible to create a FM the same way as you can create a 4th circle healer.

There's no denying that the mystic class is different, but a fighter who came out of the library after a year might have several hundred ranks, but s/he certainly isn't going to be getting invited on any hunts. Unless, of course, that fighter/healer shares a PWC with a more well-known character who can get them on hunts. But in the same way, if I started a mystic character and said "Hey Malkor please be nice to my newbie mystic" he may very well do so because he knows it's clicked by me. Not saying I'd be FM in 2 weeks, but there might be subtle advantages.

There's nothing you or I or even DT can do about a character changing clickers. I don't think it's automatically bad no matter the profession, but it's definitely abuseable no matter the profession. If I bought Koric and decided every time I went to the valley I stuck him in the safe cave, other horus healers would no longer be invited with the same regularity. It's character abuse. And it's this kind of abuse, and the question to whether or not it exists, that has so many people divided as to how they feel about all this.

What I don't want to see is a precedent of abuse againt anyone who is no longer the original PWC, mystic or otherwise. It's hard, because the IC relationships formed are just no longer there when a new PWC takes over, but I don't think there should be zero tolerance for people to take over a character and try to make something out of it. Give them the chance, mystic or otherwise.

I don't feel strongly one way or another about Manticore specifically, mostly because no matter what happens it won't affect my time spent in CL so much that I won't enjoy it anymore, but I can't really say how it would affect Neige or other mystics. He's may be frustrated over non-promotion and looking at the existence of Manticore and the use of his abilities as a detriment to him getting promoted.

Maybe if people were running around with lib goss fighters I'd feel it a little more, but then, if you've got a lib goss fighter you're playing CL waaaay too much :)

Lex

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Lex
There's no denying that the mystic class is different, but a fighter who came out of the library after a year might have several hundred ranks, but s/he certainly isn't going to be getting invited on any hunts.Exactly, I agree and I thought I said something along those lines. I mentionned relationships and experience for instance. I think that, much more than "isn't going to be invited on hunts", the biggest problem that the lib-fighter will get is lack of skill. There is more to fighting than ranks too.

In other words, I agree.

Drablak

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Lex
Maybe if people were running around with lib goss fighters I'd feel it a little more, but then, if you've got a lib goss fighter you're playing CL waaaay too much :)

Lib goss fighter, check.

He was actually my first character, but I screwed him up so much that he's never invited to hunts, so now he's strictly on library/coinwhore duty.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Nunul


Can you fault me if I see it as simplistic? Well, I guess not But you seem to fault other for not seeing it that way. [;)]

*HWC for Nunul is outraged that people are so preoccupied with judging someone elses clicker that it would effect one of his characters IC. HWC was in the body of another AT the raid. THAT character and Nunul are pretty close and catch up with each other whilst in the library.I do hope people aren't judging the clicker, but the fact that he can click for that character at all.

I'm terrible (I admit) at separating my posts into IC and OOC. That posts was mostly if not all voiced OOC...by Nunul, as I like to think everyone is not privy to my other character's names.

I'm just (me, HWC) sick of hearing people trying to justify the acts because of OOC reasons. The IC gloss-over is a damned weak argument for putting ANY group of exiles in a difficult and dangerous positionWas that last IC or OOC? The part about a dangerous position I mean. The fact remains that people on both sides, not just those trying to justify the acts, as you put it, went OOC on this. When you hear that someone is mad at loosing 2 hours of his saterday afternoon, that's not IC either.

But I think I understand your position, so tell me if I am wrong here. Basically you figure everything should only matter in an IC way, because for you CL is a RP animal, period. Is that it?

Drablak

P.S. just curious: did your other character get invited because of Nunul's relathionship with people involved, or was everyone unaware of the fact HWC/Nunul was also clicker for that other character? What are your thoughts on the use of ICQ, or clicker-based friendships influencing the way characters interact in the game?

[Entil'Zha]

This post is intended primarily to address a meta-topic, rather than the excellent flame war already in progress. I will, however, say that I fully support Neige (just for reference purposes and all). My own reasons have already been stated by others, so I won't bother to repeat them in this post.

Originally posted by Himitsu

I think that instead of driving Manticore into the library because he hasn't completed the tasks other mystics have, you should work with him to help him develop these skills so he can be a great mystic. Would you rather his ranks go for nothing? Would you rather have the original PWC's efforts go to waste? Would you rather have our enemy, the Orga, keep the strange stone and gain more power which they might use against every exile? Would you rather have one less Full Mystic regularly walking the lands?


I think it's important that OOC and IC opinions on this topic not be confused. While this sort of opinion makes perfect sense IC, it seems rather short-sighted OOC. And far too prevalent. Your post seemed OOC, so...

To answer your questions: Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

Having one more full mystic regularly walking the lands would mean... well, that there would be one more full mystic regularly walking the lands. It means the services of the other full mystics will be less in demand than previously. One might even argue that it makes CL less fun for the other mystics. The mystic class was designed with this in mind--it was intended that there should not be many mystics walking the lands.

Having another powerful mystic in the lands does not automatically make gameplay more fun for everyone else, either. Sure, it means that folks can go more places more quickly and more frequently than they could otherwise. It also means that those places get old more quickly than they would have otherwise. This, in turn, means that older members of the community will become bored with CL more quickly, and leave. Adding another powerful character to the community is just another one of those actions that must have an equal and opposite reaction. This applies to all classes, really, not just the mystic class. It's only the scarcity of mystics relative to the other classes that makes the rank inflation so much more acute with every new powerful mystic character.

If you don't buy the rank inflation theory, ask yourself this: Was CL less fun overall a couple months ago, when everyone had a few fewer ranks? Is it getting progressively more fun with an overall increase in ranks? If every character were given another 1000 ranks today, would CL be more fun a month later? If, for every character, a new doppleganger character were created with the same ranks--would that make CL more fun?


SWC for Entil'Zha

--

[Kiriel]

Originally posted by Drablak
P.S. just curious: did your other character get invited because of Nunul's relathionship with people involved, or was everyone unaware of the fact HWC/Nunul was also clicker for that other character? What are your thoughts on the use of ICQ, or clicker-based friendships influencing the way characters interact in the game?

I can say that his other character was invited because of that character's past helpfulness in FMOCR and DP raid events, and although my relationship with Nunul certainly did influence my relationship with the other character, that other character has far more of a reputation than Nunul does in terms of participation in these sort of events. I invited that character because we needed more qualified healers and I knew that he would be a big help and that character is a nice guy as well as a good healer.

I will say I consider calling someone on ICQ to help with a hunt along the lines of sending a messenger into the library to go find the person.

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Drablak
I do hope people aren't judging the clicker, but the fact that he can click for that character at all.

I don't give a whit who the clicker is or how they came to be the clicker (Barring a hack that is)

Originally posted by Drablak
Was that last IC or OOC? The part about a dangerous position I mean.

:rolleyes:
That part is completely a mix of IC.
Neige put us in a difficult position due to a weak case. (\action steps out of character) His case was weak, weak, weak.
I have a JM...he has no clue...indeed, he doesn't trouble himself about who is getting promoted when/bywhom/why...
My JM had no clue (hell, until JoMaril explained it HWC had no clue nor a care) why so few FMs have been promoted.

Originally posted by Drablak
But I think I understand your position, so tell me if I am wrong here. Basically you figure everything should only matter in an IC way, because for you CL is a RP animal, period. Is that it?

Yup, thats me. The anti-Mike
Nunul's "character" doesn't waver much. He is who he is. He doesn't say "thee", "thou", "thine"...etc, cause he's just a simple dorf who likes bacon.
He rarely jumps into RL topics unless in a group who is blatantly there chit-chatting about RL.
\action shrugs

Originally posted by Drablak
P.S. just curious: did your other character get invited because of Nunul's relathionship with people involved, or was everyone unaware of the fact HWC/Nunul was also clicker for that other character? What are your thoughts on the use of ICQ, or clicker-based friendships influencing the way characters interact in the game?

GOOOOOOOOOOOD question.
I cannot say for sure if many in the OC party knew that exileX was a relative of Nunul's. The person who invited me is familliar with all but one of my entities. When invited, I asked if Nunul would be more valuable to the group. (I see Nunul as a uber-dorf [;)] )
I was told that exileX would do nicely.
(this says something about the group itself. It was not a rag-tag mishmosh, but a calculated force)

ICQ: I don't deny I've used it in the past. (Hell, I'm guilty of scripting too.) Its abuseable to some extent. I sometimes see it though, as a way to get in contact with someone who has their nose in a book in the lib. Sorta like a SS message.

Clicker-Based Friendships: My Two oldest characters (Nunul is THE oldest) know each other. Some people know of their friendship and I don't hesitate to inquire which of us would be better for a group. I don't advertise who they are tho. Even tho exileX is known by people, he doesn't act the same as Nunul

[Brune]

Dandelion posted (and then Connie quoted before I could read all this!):
I've made a couple of dozen starts to this and thrown them all out.

I had quotes and full colour sketches with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one ...

And 20 posts later, I did too ;-)

For the record, after sifting and thinking, I will say I support Niege's actions. I am perfectly willing to discuss this in the lands, although I would prefer to do so while hunting (whack and chat), as opposed to just sitting around debating a many-sided issue.

Thanks to many for various and sundry facts and points of view.

Brune

[Drablak]

I can see two good things coming out of all of this:

1) this is an interesting discussion, and

2) we have a new record for the number of members logged in at the same time. Last record was 14 a year ago, and it's now 22[:)]

Drablak

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Drablak
2) we have a new record for the number of members logged in at the same time. Last record was 14 a year ago, and it's now 22[:)]


Very nearly 1 year to the day

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Entil'Zha
Having one more full mystic regularly walking the lands would mean... well, that there would be one more full mystic regularly walking the lands. It means the services of the other full mystics will be less in demand than previously. One might even argue that it makes CL less fun for the other mystics. The mystic class was designed with this in mind--it was intended that there should not be many mystics walking the lands.

This is completely wrong.

There are many skills that Mystics can learn and they require several hundred ranks to be even slightly useful. Just because Manticore is great at the teleporting skill doesn't mean that it takes away from Valtrim being great at the locating skill or it takes away Sutai's skill at the boosting skill. So all three can be out of the library at the same time without reducing the worth of each other in any way whatsoever. I really don't think Manticore being out of the library makes any mystic, of any level, less in demand.

Heck, both Ghoti and Rincewind can be out at the same time and they're both great locators. Do they take away the fun of the other person? If they're both searching for fallens, they are probably in town so they can work together to search for different fallens or if a fallen is out of Ghoti's range she can ask Rincewind to try and vice-versa.

Personally, I don't intend on learning how to locate but that's okay because not every Mystic has to learn the same skills to get promoted. Since our slaughter rate is so high, even higher than healers, most pick one or two specialties and ignore the rest.

P.S. To answer Althea's allegation, I'm a Journeyman Mystic and I do not support Neige's action.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Himitsu


This is completely wrong. [...] I don't agree with you on this Himi. I think it does have an influence. Not to the FM you quote, but probably to Zorton and to Robin, both of them having ranks in the teleportation stone. Sutai might not like it if, say, manticore had a ledger on boosting as well.

As for Ghoti and Rincewind, they can both be in town helping locate people and they are nice enough not to mind that the other is on at the same time, but to say that it doesn't make a difference is wrong. When one of them leaves, the other gets a number of shares suddenly. They have to share the shares, so to speak.

I can give another example that would be closer to the discussion. Understand that this is speculative, and I am not saying that this will happen, but it can illustrate what Entil was saying.

You know about Conga that was recently created. Let's say this group wants to explore hunt from time to time in places where there are illusions, like Noth, Scarmis Pen, etc. Another group would likely include a FM in such a group because of the need to open illusions. This FM would be part of the group's regular hunts/explorations, even when the group goes to places without illusions.

Now, say that someone can have access to a FM whenever he wants to. When the group needs to open a path, out comes that FM, open the path and then goes to sleep. That group doesn't need another FM to participate the rest of the time. That means another FM isn't included in that group, and that is a loss to those who would otherwise be included.

What I describe here is using a tool (as in a key) instead of using a person (as in a locksmith). Turning a FM into a tool.

Another example would be this. Robin is studying the orga stone also. He invested ranks and time into that training, and he can now start to get some gratification for that training by teleporting people across DP. To be able to do that he must have the location across DP memorised, and that means that he must hold his stone in his hands without letting go of it. That means that the rest of the time he cannot locate, he cannot boost, etc. It's a sacrifice Robin makes every time he clans and he cannot use part of his skills.
If another mystic is used only for specific things like teleporting, he stays in the lib until needed, there is no sacrifice on the part of that mystic. Those who would ask Robin to teleport them might ask this other Fm instead. Robin would have less opportunities to use his skill and have the fun that balances the sacrifices.

So, you see, there is an impact on the number of FM around. There is an impact of the number af AM and JM too. When I ask if I may join a group, I get the answer that there is already a mystic sometimes, and one is enough.

Do you see what I mean?

Drablak

[Mehan]

One thing Manticore was trying to fix was the fact that Robin can't be around all the time.

FH raids have to be scheduled around Robin's schedule, but if Manticore was able to be used for this, his clickers schedule is different, him being on a different coast I think, and would open the FH experience to others.

By not allowing Manticore to help with the orga stones, you could be making it so some from other time zones cannot participate without staying up to UnGodly hours.

Now, say that someone can have access to a FM whenever he wants to. When the group needs to open a path, out comes that FM, open the path and then goes to sleep. That group doesn't need another FM to participate the rest of the time. That means another FM isn't included in that group, and that is a loss to those who would otherwise be included.

You also have to think that with all the groups coming out nowadays, there are not enough FM's to be able to have their own group. I love having a Full Mystic along with us on Falinea's Blade. If we get sick of something, we always have the option of breaking an illusion and going somewhere else. But because this FM is with us, he/she can't be elsewhere to help others. More FM's are needed, and that is what Manticore is. A Full Mystic.

Whether or not he contains the same Spirit that he once had, he is still Manticore. Insane, perhaps, in character, a rogue who changed his mind about the guild, but if you give HWC Manticore time, I know he can be a good Mystic. People just have to lay off him and give him a chance. He can help the Puddleby community, if only you let him.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Mehan
One thing Manticore was trying to fix was the fact that Robin can't be around all the time.

FH raids have to be scheduled around Robin's schedule, but if Manticore was able to be used for this, his clickers schedule is different, him being on a different coast I think, and would open the FH experience to others.

By not allowing Manticore to help with the orga stones, you could be making it so some from other time zones cannot participate without staying up to UnGodly hours.I am not disagreeing with you that there are not quite enough FM around Mehan. And, for the record, the issue on which I am still on the fence is the fact that I am not convinced that HWNC/Manticore (He Who Now Clicks) would not make a good mystic. I accept the fact that HWNC/Manticore could play it very well and could thus enrich CL world.

But, on the other hand, maybe you take this matter from a different angle than others. Maybe others feel that, one of the reason there are not enough FM around is exactly because of the potential that Maticore represents. Why would anyone spend the time and effort it takes to create a FM if all their hard work can be lessened by zombies walking the lands posessed?

Let's take Horus healers for example. Say that there are only two people that can now help raise the PNDs we now get with the new creatures that are introduced. There is a lack of Horus healers. When neither Koric, nor Lorikeet, is in the lands, bad cases of PND are in trouble. That's why people like Kirth are investing their time in this useful skill. Kirth does this at the expense of other healer skills, of course.

Now, say a GM saw this situation and decided that it needed fixing and he chose to create a character and give him 2000 ranks in Horus (because he can, he's a GM after all). Now, each time a PND comes to town, that HorusHealer comes out of the lib and saves the day. How do you think Koric and Kirth would feel about it? Maybe Kirth would even decided that it's not worth it to concentrate on Horus and train some much needed Proximus. So the problem is partly fixed, since you now have Horus whenever you need it, but then again you discourage others to invest in that skill, and you lessen the work and dedication some put in it too.

This is completely stupid and would not happen, but it's an example to illustrate what I think is feared/felt in this case. It's not supposed to be a solid hypothesis, it's supposed to illustrate, to give insight on what some may feel.

... but if you give HWC Manticore time, I know he can be a good Mystic. People just have to lay off him and give him a chance. He can help the Puddleby community, if only you let him.As I said, that's one of the issues I am still on the fence about. I agree with you that HWNC may very well qualify for the job. You cannot removed the fact that he inherited the prize without paying the price though, and for that I am still undecided. You see, I am putting a lot of work and effort into my mystic character, whatever Himi says, and I am unsure of what to think of this situation. And this is unrelated to the merits HWNC may have.

Drablak

[Koric]

Originally posted by Lex
If I bought Koric and decided every time I went to the valley I stuck him in the safe cave, other horus healers would no longer be invited with the same regularity. It's character abuse.
From what I understand, this is already happening to a limited extent. Clickers with multiple accounts bring a healer to sit in a handy place (like a good lure spot in the lily pond) while their fighter solos the monsters and comes up for an occasional heal. If HGM's reaction in the newsgroup is any indication, it sounds like the court system will forever be the only recourse we have. And most people are too apathetic to use it as a weapon against what seems like a victimless crime.

Maybe the mystic guild should just shut down and have no full mystics on at all until another solution is found? At least then the existing full mystics would be seen as making some kind of sacrifice. Right now, the plan to promote no one hurts just about everyone in the game except existing full mystics. Just a thought. If a promotion ban isn't making DT pay attention, it seems logical to try something more drastic to get the point across.

What's ironic is that, by going on this FMOCR, I was under the mistaken impression that I was doing mystics like Robin and Zorton a favor (so you can imagine my surprise at learning the lawsuit was supported by so many "foothills regulars" when I had only heard from Neige, whom I barely know). Anytime we want to go to the foothills or open Noth, etc., we have to bug them and work around their limited schedules.

I thought having another mystic with a stone would help ease the time pressure on these mystics (and make it easier for more exiles to go to the foothills). For these same reasons, I am glad there are other healers with decent Horus around who are willing and able to help foothills parties when I cannot (thanks, Dande!). I don't mind the competition (the xp is crappy on those trips anyway). I just want to see some progress in the plot. If I can help, great.

I suppose, as Robin implies, I had some sort of responsibility to learn and understand the position of the mystic council on pocket mystics so that I would know better than to help Manticore. But, like others have said, I guess I just never thought to ask the right people (I have asked a full mystic before, but that person wouldn't tell me, for whatever reason). Jo was the first person to publicly explain it, and I'm pretty much on board with his reasoning, about a week too late.

[Jo]

Originally posted by Mehan
FH raids have to be scheduled around Robin's schedule, but if Manticore was able to be used for this, his clickers schedule is different, him being on a different coast I think, and would open the FH experience to others.


You are mistaken.


By not allowing Manticore to help with the orga stones, you could be making it so some from other time zones cannot participate without staying up to UnGodly hours.


You are mistaken.


Now, say that someone can have access to a FM whenever he wants to. When the group needs to open a path, out comes that FM, open the path and then goes to sleep. That group doesn't need another FM to participate the rest of the time. That means another FM isn't included in that group, and that is a loss to those who would otherwise be included.


Great description of why pocket mystics are bad, real mystics don't get to partcipate in groups.


You also have to think that with all the groups coming out nowadays, there are not enough FM's to be able to have their own group. I love having a Full Mystic along with us on Falinea's Blade. If we get sick of something, we always have the option of breaking an illusion and going somewhere else. But because this FM is with us, he/she can't be elsewhere to help others. More FM's are needed, and that is what Manticore is. A Full Mystic.


We have 1 mystic in our group who's a journeyman, no full mystics are in FB.


Whether or not he contains the same Spirit that he once had, he is still Manticore.


And if you sell Mehan to me, would Mehan still be the same mean spirited Zoess that we all love to hate?! ;)


Insane, perhaps, in character, a rogue who changed his mind about the guild, but if you give HWC Manticore time, I know he can be a good Mystic. People just have to lay off him and give him a chance. He can help the Puddleby community, if only you let him. [/B]

That's like a bard quester starting off their quest with 31 bard parts in their inventory. It kind of stacks the deck in their favor.
I know I can be a great bard, if I buy Xepel's character would be ok for me to play my cover of Slayer's Raining Blood in town center because I need a chance? Probably not a good idea.

[Koric]

Originally posted by Drablak
Let's take Horus healers for example. Say that there are only two people that can now help raise the PNDs we now get with the new creatures that are introduced. There is a lack of Horus healers. When neither Koric, nor Lorikeet, is in the lands, bad cases of PND are in trouble. That's why people like Kirth are investing their time in this useful skill. Kirth does this at the expense of other healer skills, of course.

Now, say a GM saw this situation and decided that it needed fixing and he chose to create a character and give him 2000 ranks in Horus (because he can, he's a GM after all). Now, each time a PND comes to town, that HorusHealer comes out of the lib and saves the day. How do you think Koric and Kirth would feel about it?

This already happens, and it doesn't take a GM to do it. Just takes a critical mass of people who clan a lot to have a secondary library Horus healer they are willing to bring out. But I have long ago accepted the fact that this is just part of the game. I've rationalized it into a positive, figuring that it just discourages people in Horus specialization and makes me more unique. I'm really good at rationalization. No, really!

[Himitsu]

I'd first like to say that when I say FM or Pocket FM, I don't mean Manticore. If I'm going to refer to Manticore I will do so by name.

You made a variety of points but they all seem to rest on the assumption that every Mystic makes every other Mystic a little less useful just by their presence. Puddleby is a big place and I think that it has room for more than just one teleport expert, boosting expert, illusion breaking expert, etc. In the case of the teleport stone there are many places where teleportation could be used, not just to the Dred Passage. What if one party wanted to go there and another party wanted to explore a part of KI and wanted to teleport there? I don't know much about the teleportation stone but I think you can only have one teleport spot active at any one time. If there were two teleporting mystics then there could be two explorations going on at the same time in two different areas. As mystics, we are supposed to be desiring of furthering knowledge and relying totally on one teleporting mystic (or any specialization mystic) doesn't help this cause along. It would be just as silly as having only one mystic that can locate fallens. Basically, when they aren't on it's a real hassle to find people who've fallen unless you want everyone to use ICQ instead. As Mehan said, time zones are also a concern. Mystics best use our skills with others and if we can't get a good group to go to these tough spots because it's 3 a.m. Pacific than all of the ranks are useless.

Originally posted by Drablak
If another mystic is used only for specific things like teleporting, he stays in the lib until needed, there is no sacrifice on the part of that mystic. Those who would ask Robin to teleport them might ask this other Fm instead. Robin would have less opportunities to use his skill and have the fun that balances the sacrifices.

I really don't understand you saying that someone would ask the other FM instead of Robin if they both have to hold the stone and not use any of their mystic skills. If they both suffer under the same penalty then I think that the mystic who'd get asked would be the mystic that the group has had dealings with in the past, or has other skills that can be used, or is in the time zone that the group is in so they don't have to stay up too late, or isn't a pain in the butt to deal with.

Now, if Robin was holding the teleport stone and someone asked him to boost or locate, he would have to tell them to ask another mystic but that wouldn't be because of Manticore or any other mystic that would be in the library at the time.

<hr>

Also, you might think that someone is in the library often but they just might clan at different times than you or had something OOC come up and had to not leave the library for a week so it's hard to say whether someone's a Pocket Mystic or just really busy and unable to be as active for a while. For two weeks I only came out of the library for clan meetings, did that make me a Pocket Mystic?

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Drablak
You see, I am putting a lot of work and effort into my mystic character, whatever Himi says, and I am unsure of what to think of this situation. And this is unrelated to the merits HWNC may have.

When did I say that you aren't putting a lot of work and effort into your mystic character? You work darn hard at it and your scrolls show some of the results of your efforts. I didn't mean to leave the impression with you or anyone else that I think you are a slacker so I'm sorry if I did. [:(]

[Mehan]

Originally posted by Jo


You are mistaken.

You are mistaken.

We have 1 mystic in our group who's a journeyman, no full mystics are in FB.

And if you sell Mehan to me, would Mehan still be the same mean spirited Zoess that we all love to hate?! ;)

I know I can be a great bard, if I buy Xepel's character would be ok for me to play my cover of Slayer's Raining Blood in town center because I need a chance? Probably not a good idea.

If you bought xepel, and continued to write songs I would see no reason why you could not keep the instruments he had. Bard instruments are all luck. Take it from me.

I am mistaken? Please Jo, enlighten me then. I AM just a dumb mean spirited Zo that everybody hates after all.

Many bard parts do not stack the deck. It is all luck, believe me.

And no, there is no Full mystic enrolled in FB. We have a guest Jo, you knew what I was talking about, stop trying to make me look stupid.

[Mehan]

Originally posted by Mehan
I love having a Full Mystic along with us on Falinea's Blade.


Looking back, I never said she/he was a member. [:p]

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Koric
This already happens, and it doesn't take a GM to do it. Just takes a critical mass of people who clan a lot to have a secondary library Horus healer they are willing to bring out. But I have long ago accepted the fact that this is just part of the game. I've rationalized it into a positive, figuring that it just discourages people in Horus specialization and makes me more unique. I'm really good at rationalization. No, really! I know it happens Koric. My point was that exactly about the fact that it would be different if it was a GM who made the horuhealer out of thin air. You rationalize horus lib characters, but would you feel the same if the horushealer was just pulled out of a hat, like in the example given where a GM created such a character? That would mean that he could have more ranks than you and Lorikeet together. Would that be the same to you? Personally, it would severly limit my ability to rationalise it. A ledger in orga stone? without the pain of getting one? Hm...

Drablak

[Koric]

Originally posted by Drablak
Would you feel the same if the horushealer was just pulled out of a hat, like in the example given where a GM created such a character? ... Would that be the same to you?
Effectively, yes. But maybe that's just me. As I see it, the GM's create the situation that allows lib Horus healers to flourish (the same system has its' positive aspects that arguably outweigh the negatives, of course). The GM's also create the situation that (currently) allows pocket Mystics to "flourish", though community opposition is significantly higher on that count, it seems.

I think pocket mystics are much closer logically to lib Horus healers than to magically created GM characters anyway, but I do understand the difference. And I oppose both (now).

[Manticore]

Don't bother debating my merits as a Mystic, I've already surrendered. The discussion is now irrelevant. If you feel you must, go ahead, but with the knowledge that I'm safely out of the picture now.

Anyone who further mentions my potential as a mystic will be promptly shot in the face and genitals with a squirtgun of H2SO4.

Thank you,
Mystic Manticore
(Currently on Hiatus)

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Jo
Great description of why pocket mystics are bad, real mystics don't get to partcipate in groups.
That or because many current Mystics are self-important, pompous jackasses. The others are usually busy adventuring. How is it that when a 3rd circle fighter complains of not having anything to do, they're whining and should grow up and start their own group, but when a Mystic is sitting in town bored it's automatically the fault of the evil horrible bad people who don't want to deal with someone who keeps secrets from everyone outside their shady, unrespectable guild?

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Himitsu
You made a variety of points but they all seem to rest on the assumption that every Mystic makes every other Mystic a little less useful just by their presence. Yes, that entire post was in answer to your statement that the number of FM had no effect on the other FM. That was the post in which you said both Ghoti and Rincewind could both be in town at the same time without affecting one another. My entire post was aimed at showing that it does have an impact. That doesn't mean I'd like to see less mystics around. But it does weigh in the balance of which solution to the lack of mystics I would be confortable with. I don't mind being one of several JM. I would be happy for you if you were selected for Conga for instance. I wouldn't feel the same about a lib-mystic being selected for Conga. That's the difference I was trying to express. You're the genuine article, you put in the hours to make it, you should get gratification. Both Robin and Zorton work on their skills in the orga stone, both are entitled to the rewards of having people wait on them and ask them to go to the FH.

I really don't understand you saying that someone would ask the other FM instead of Robin if they both have to hold the stone and not use any of their mystic skills. If they both suffer under the same penalty then I think that the mystic who'd get asked would be the mystic that the group has had dealings with in the past, or has other skills that can be used, or is in the time zone that the group is in so they don't have to stay up too late, or isn't a pain in the butt to deal with.Are you IC or OOC here? Let's make it more explicit. We know who is interested in FH raids. Hidden was part of LIFE and is part of many raids to the FH and is a useful member of these explorations. He could decide to have Hidden organise a FH raid and just bring out Manticore to teleport people across DP instead of asking Robin. Why would that be wrong? First of all it's one clicker taking two places in a FH raid, and it's using a mystic as a tool (remember the key analogy) instead of the person (remember the locksmith).

Also, you might think that someone is in the library often but they just might clan at different times than you or had something OOC come up and had to not leave the library for a week so it's hard to say whether someone's a Pocket Mystic or just really busy and unable to be as active for a while. For two weeks I only came out of the library for clan meetings, did that make me a Pocket Mystic? You are right that it's not always possible to tell.

Drablak

[Noah]

Originally posted by Manticore
Don't bother debating my merits as a Mystic, I've already surrendered. The discussion is now irrelevant. If you feel you must, go ahead, but with the knowledge that I'm safely out of the picture now.


Aww, but I find that part of the discussion very interesting considering that if it weren't for me, it wouldn't exist [:D]

[Hidden]

Mystics aren't unique in being unwanted when there are more than enough to go around. As a specialized (Spirtus) healer, if Lard Almighty or Tharloch is on you can bet your ass I'm not going to get any invites except from desperate smaller groups bound for failure. That doesn't mean I get angry because they're better than me, though. It means I bite the bullet, get out my fighter, and spend a little time mindlessly whacking the crap out of furry forest fauna.

Why should Mystics, who contribute less to society as a whole than any other class, get special protection?

Originally posted by Jo
You are mistaken.
You are mistaken.
Are you TRYING to turn into HGM here? Because if you are, you can just drink a nice tall glass of shut the f**k up and go back to CSMGA from whence you came, because I doubt that kind of crap will be tolerated for very long here.

(Nothing personal, you know. Just lightening the mood. Right?)

[Jo]

Originally posted by Hidden

That or because many current Mystics are self-important, pompous jackasses. The others are usually busy adventuring. How is it that when a 3rd circle fighter complains of not having anything to do, they're whining and should grow up and start their own group, but when a Mystic is sitting in town bored it's automatically the fault of the evil horrible bad people who don't want to deal with someone who keeps secrets from everyone outside their shady, unrespectable guild?

It's nobody's direct fault if you're sitting in town bored. You always have the choice of going to the library. But having a mystic at your beck and call because you know his password doesn't really make you keen to ask another mystic does it?

Originally posted by Hidden
Mystics aren't unique in being unwanted when there are more than enough to go around. As a specialized (Spirtus) healer, if Lard Almighty or Tharloch is on you can bet your ass I'm not going to get any invites except from desperate smaller groups bound for failure.


I seem to recall inviting you to raids when we already had Lard or Tharloch lined up, not just once or twice, but many times. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to have no lack of people inviting you to hunt. You're a great healer.


Are you TRYING to turn into HGM here? Because if you are, you can just drink a nice tall glass of shut the f**k up and go back to CSMGA from whence you came, because I doubt that kind of crap will be tolerated for very long here.

(Nothing personal, you know. Just lightening the mood. Right?

How do you know I'm not HGM? :P

Seriously, Hidden, what is your problem? Please point out the parts of my posts where I offended you and moved away from healthy discussion and I'll gladly apologize. I find your comments there pretty offensive and I think you're way out of line.

One more time since you and Mehan both seem to be really angry at me:

I DON'T HAVE A PERSONAL PROBLEM WITH ANY OF YOU

I do, however, dislike people's hard work (including my own, other mystics, full and otherwise) put aside in favor of something that was not earned. Once again, I'd appreciate it if you'd keep the discussion to the subject at hand and keep the name calling (and yes, calling me HGM is offensive, I'm way more annoying than him! ;)) to yourself. I was under the impression "that kind of crap" was not tolerated here, which is why Koric chose to open discussion here first, and not on the newsgroup. Again, correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.

[Kiriel]

There seem to be a lot of posts that are assuming that a transferred mystic is automatically going to be a pocket mystic. I don't see why those two things are necessarily connected. There is no reason that just because a mystic gets transferred, that the person they're transferred to wouldn't like to play them as a real mystic and really take them seriously. Given the current attitude the mystic guild holds towards transferred mystics though, it's nearly impossible for one to really play a proper mystic, which tends to drive a transferred mystic to pocket mystichood.

I can understand complaints about pocket mystics, and personally I am not a big fan of library characters of any sort. Even though I play my fighter significantly more often than my other two characters, I don't consider either of those other characters library characters and each one has a distinct personality and does not rely on the others for support in general (although I will make occasional exceptions). I do think folks have a right to do what they like with their characters though, and that the library character thing is an OOC complaint and not an IC one and really shouldn't be handled through IC means. Personally I had hoped that Manticore, if given the opportunity, could be a really good mystic and not just the door opening sort of guy, but I guess we'll never know.

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Jo
I do, however, dislike people's hard work (including my own, other mystics, full and otherwise) put aside in favor of something that was not earned.

Drabby...if I could, I would travel back thru time and insert this quote into my earlier posts.
This is exactly the OOC stuff that leaves HWC for Nunul scratching his head.

I firmly believe (and drabby, you are a prime example of this as a JM in PTF) that its the "character" of the character that gets them invited on hunts. When I'm looking for a mystic to share with/invite on a hunt/expedition, I'm looking for motivation and character.

I see little to no motivation on the part of most of the FMs (Those that I actually see outside of the library) to involve themselves with the general population. For them to have a beef with a character who has that motivation, even if it is a third generation clicker, hell...I'm baffled as to how to respond.

I can count on one hand the number of FMs I commonly see out of the lib. Is there really no room for a motivated FM? Are the other "legitimate" FMs that are on library life-support suffering due to Manticore's existance? Gimme a break.

If the FMs are serious about changing something, I'd second the suggestion to take EVERY FM out of the picture until something is OOC resolved.

Where the heck is Aki these days anyway?
Can we start refering to Aki as a "pocket" or "Library" FM?

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Kiriel
There seem to be a lot of posts that are assuming that a transferred mystic is automatically going to be a pocket mystic. I don't see why those two things are necessarily connected. I hope I didn't come across as giving the impression that I think that, because it was not my intention. I think I stated that it was one issue on which I was still on the fence actually. I also stated that I thought HWNC could probably be a good mystic. I admit I used those involved to illustrate possible abuse, but it was meant as just that: an illustration of what could happen and why it wouldn't be a good thing IMO.

These are actually different issues, but like you said it's unlikely that the distinction would be made in this case.

[Lundar]

In response to Kiri:

If your definition of a good Mystic is one who is often available to open illusions and teleport groups to the Foothills, then I can see how Manticore could be a good Mystic.

However, if your definition of a good Mystic is one who genuinely cares about the Guild, who respects the Mystic profession, and upholds the Guild's values and secrets, then I wouldn't count on it.

I don't consider mystic characters who are transfered to other players to be automatic pocket mystics. However, I would say that it would be very difficult for them to learn about being a mystic, if they didn't go through the process themselves. How does someone even begin counsel an apprentice, when they don't even know the slightest thing about the mystic path, besides their ill-conceived notions as a fighter or healer?

-Lundar<P>

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Jo
It's nobody's direct fault if you're sitting in town bored. You always have the choice of going to the library.
I never said *I* was. I was just asking why it was different for other people (who have been told this) than mystics (who are apparently required by law to be needed).
But having a mystic at your beck and call because you know his password doesn't really make you keen to ask another mystic does it?I don't know about you, but playing 2 characters at once is a royal pain in the ass. Honestly I'd always rather use a real mystic than Manticore, but when nobody else is available and a Mystic is needed or people will depart, it seemed like the lesser of two evils to me.
I seem to recall inviting you to raids when we already had Lard or Tharloch lined up, not just once or twice, but many times. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to have no lack of people inviting you to hunt. You're a great healer.Ever notice what I'm usually doing on those hunts? I'm not really needed, I'm just there because people are in the habit of inviting me. I don't provide any skills they don't already have, except an extra (and only mediocre) ammount of faustus. I feel utterly useless. What if you were hunting Orga Frenzies with 6 fell bladers? Same thing. Yeah yeah, I know. Whine whine bitch bitch get over it.
Seriously, Hidden, what is your problem? Please point out the parts of my posts where I offended you and moved away from healthy discussion and I'll gladly apologize.I believe I quoted the relevant bits in my previous message. Stating "You are mistaken." without any other useful information, rebuttal, or text is just pointless flamebait. If you know something that can be used to back you up, say it. If you can't back up your claim, then hush. That kind of debate tactic annoys the holy hell out of me.
I find your comments there pretty offensive and I think you're way out of line.You are mistaken. (See how useful and productive that was?)

I have nothing against you Jo. I consider you a friend. But just like anyone else (my friends, my enemies, anyone) if you post bullshit I'll call you on it, and I may not necessarily apply KY-Jelly and sugar coating to my responses.

[Lundar]

Nunul wrote:

<I>"I see little to no motivation on the part of most of the FMs (Those that I actually see outside of the library) to involve themselves with the general population. For them to have a beef with a character who has that motivation, even if it is a third generation clicker, hell...I'm baffled as to how to respond."</I>

Many people have been suggesting that the problem that Mystics have with Manticore is completely OOC, and looked at from an IC perspective, there would be no problem at all. This is completely incorrect.

To ignore Manticore's change in personality and behavior, to go on treating Manticore as we had, even after he lost all memory of his previous actions and forgot about everything it meant to be a Mystic, to ignore all this, THAT would be a completely OOC action.

There are many IC objections and explanations for Manticore's behavior. During the period when Noah controlled Manticore, the explanation was insanity. Manticore had, during the course of his studies, somehow snapped, and completely lost his mind, as well as his memory. We treated him not as a criminal, but as a friend who has lost his mind, and though he occaisionally inconvinienced us, he was relateively harmless.

However, Manticore's recent actions have made us reconsider our position that Manticore is harmless. Indeed, some of his actions even convinced us that Manticore was under the control of some malevolent spirit. Look again at the transcript of Neige's case against Manticore(http://www.free-conversant.com/aravir/344). Not all of it is OOC, and indeed, it could be argued that most of it is infact IC.

<I>"Where the heck is Aki these days anyway? Can we start refering to Aki as a "pocket" or "Library" FM?"</I>

A "pocket" mystic is a mystic who is kept in someone's pocket, as it were, to be taken out when needed and put away when not in use. This is the use of a mystic as a <I>tool</I>, as oposed to calling on the aid of a <I>person</I>(as Drablak has explained). Obviously, this does not apply to Aki.

A library mystic, or more generally a library character, is usually a secondary or tertiary character who is not usually played at all, and is kept mainly in the library. Occaisionally this term is also used to describe a character which spends an excessive ammount of time in the library, so possibly this term applies.

-Lundar<P>

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Hidden

I never said *I* was. I was just asking why it was different for other people (who have been told this) than mystics (who are apparently required by law to be needed).

I didn't mean you you, I meant the collective "you all".

Originally posted by Hidden

I don't know about you, but playing 2 characters at once is a royal pain in the ass. Honestly I'd always rather use a real mystic than Manticore, but when nobody else is available and a Mystic is needed or people will depart, it seemed like the lesser of two evils to me.

Right, and I agreed at the time. "Why should I and others suffer 'cuz the Mystic guild won't promote anybody?" yeah, it sure sucks, but I'd rather depart now that I know it hurts other players. Areas have dangers, and you have to live with them.

Originally posted by Hidden

Ever notice what I'm usually doing on those hunts? I'm not really needed, I'm just there because people are in the habit of inviting me. I don't provide any skills they don't already have, except an extra (and only mediocre) ammount of faustus. I feel utterly useless.


I don't think you're useless on those hunts, or else I wouldn't have invited you. I think you underestimate your usefulness. I'm very fond of minimalism when it comes to hunts - inviting the minimum of people you need for a hunt. It makes people work harder. They don't get bored. They don't have to hold back and tag. They feel useful, and have more fun. Course it doesn't always end up that way. so and so wants to bring their friend, etc, etc. Next thing you know you have a mob. But that's another story :)


What if you were hunting Orga Frenzies with 6 fell bladers? Same thing. Yeah yeah, I know. Whine whine bitch bitch get over it.


I actually have this happen a lot :P. Doesn't bother me, there's usually always something else for me to do. If my only skill were fell blading (darn close to it, but not quite <G>), then it'd just be my own fault for training in just one thing. Or for being silly enough to go on the trip when I wasn't needed. I have bowed out of hunts (as fighter and healer) when I wasn't needed.


I believe I quoted the relevant bits in my previous message. Stating "You are mistaken." without any other useful information, rebuttal, or text is just pointless flamebait.


"You are mistaken!"
...seriously, Mehan's post made a lot of assumptions that I didn't want to address individually, just point out that they were off base. Including assumptions that Foothills trips happen around Robin's schedule, that other groups can make it to the foothills without a mystic, or that groups can't make it to the foothills without clanning an insane amount of hours at once. Talk to Klu..er, better idea, talk to Baffette about how to avoid that and still acomplish your goals. <G> Moreover, it may or may not be my place to discuss how and why certain things are done.

I think I've done enough talking about things that aren't my place to say to defend my beliefs (ie: things said to me in confidence that I then turned around and made public, that was pretty shitty of me to do). Besides, do you really want to read more 5 page posts from me?! I sure as hell don't want to write them. :P

She threw a lot of assumptions up there with little backing and got curt responses. If she put a lot of time into researching the post I would have put a lot of time into rebutting it.

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Jo
Including assumptions that Foothills trips happen around Robin's schedule,Seems pretty clear that your group's trips happen around Robin and Zorton's schedule (and just Robin's before Zorton grabbed a stone). You couldn't make it there with any regularity without them. You know that and I know that, there's no point in debating that point.that other groups can make it to the foothills without a mysticThis is possible. They are called "PMF" and "the DP-list Mob".or that groups can't make it to the foothills without clanning an insane amount of hours at once.May I add the additional qualification that they are allowed to have other goals in life and not be insanely frothing in their devotion to the foothills? I don't count doing 1 hour segments, camping in TG, DP, Katpus, CD as solutions, since as we've discovered before it's almost impossible to get *everyone* productively back together after an extensive downtime. (And if you bring enough extras, you've turned into the mob and can just smash your way through without thinking.Talk to Klu..er, better idea, talk to Baffette about how to avoid that and still acomplish your goals. <G>Keep in mind that not everyone can clan a set 4 hours a night every night for several hours. This is what CoNGA and I presume FB are trying to accomplish on a more limited basis, so you of all people should understand the insane difficulties involved.Moreover, it may or may not be my place to discuss how and why certain things are done.Then you don't get to use them in your statments :) If you don't want to share the information, you don't get to use it or anything derived from it when talking to the people you hide it from, unless it can be explained another way in terms of things you are allowed to talk about.

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Lundar
To ignore Manticore's change in personality and behavior, to go on treating Manticore as we had, even after he lost all memory of his previous actions and forgot about everything it meant to be a Mystic, to ignore all this, THAT would be a completely OOC action.
Not OOC, but certainly a break of character. In most circles, when someone loses their memory their friends try to get them help. In the Mystic guild, when someone loses their memory they have a dagger quietly inserted between their ribs and their body thrown in the lake.

[Karkras]

Originally posted by Koric
I'm curious what opinions people have about the whole "mystic impersonation" thing and the sabotage via court of the Full Moon Orga Camp Raid (FMOCR).

I've been accused of being too idealistic, and of trying to live according to utopian principles in what is obviously not a utopia (or, as I like to call it, my "painted world.")

Nevertheless, that's where my opinions come from.

It's my opinion that:
- many FMOCR participants sacrificed prime KI time for what they believed was a community-building effort;
- time spent on a FMOCR is more than a collection of minutes or hours. It is a concerted effort requiring commitment of time, energy and patience;
- an "unsuccessful attempt" is much easier to swallow than a "nearly successful attempt" whose success is stolen by sabotage;
- an abortion of this nature violently yanks the locus of control away from the participants, unavoidably resulting in feelings of victimization and concomitant need for retribution.

It is also my opinion that:
- the time spent following the mystic path is more than a collection of minutes or hours. It is a concerted effort requiring the commitment of time energy, and patience;
- a mystic who has made that commitment deserves more respect than one who has stolen his or her name and powers from another;
- this cleanly fits an IC description of "imposter";
- an ambitious member of the mystic guild who has put in the legwork could reasonably feel hir own locus of control (over hir career path) suddenly yanked away upon seeing the unopposed advancement of an imposter, resulting in feelings of victimization and concomitant need for opposing action.

Further:
- that the resulting uproar and widespread polarization is one of the most interesting "plot twists" that I've seen in the last 20 puddleyears.
- that Puddleby has had a shortage of high-profile imposters since the great undewing.
- that the 'brions (and maybe even the mystic council) should be less interested in orga stones than in seeing if they can train with Hangemie and his crew, who have the power to teleport exiles from the furthest reaches of lok'Groton. (I mention this last item tongue-in-cheek because it strikes me as a terribly OOC device; thrown into sharp contrast in this case, both because the matter is peripherally about a minor teleport stone, and because it took a microsecond to poof Manticore to jail, but two puddlehours for the FMOCR crew to fight their way back.)

Please note that my opinions do not condemn either party; as Karkras, I stand for principle; where the heart is true, I see virtue; when the spirit is wounded, I see fierce resolve to defend.

Finally:
I opine that just like real CL karma, this zodiac and all the intense feelings, hard and otherwise, will fade with time and become another colorful chapter in Puddleby's colorful history-- the type of chapter that keeps me coming back.

[Kiriel]

Originally posted by Lundar
In response to Kiri:

If your definition of a good Mystic is one who is often available to open illusions and teleport groups to the Foothills, then I can see how Manticore could be a good Mystic.

However, if your definition of a good Mystic is one who genuinely cares about the Guild, who respects the Mystic profession, and upholds the Guild's values and secrets, then I wouldn't count on it.


Actually, my definition of a good mystic doesn't match either of those. I think a good mystic is someone who loves the pursuit of knowledge and does their best to both acquire knowledge for themselves, and to try to assist others in the pursuit of knowledge. I also feel that that knowledge should be used for the betterment of Puddleby, but that probably falls more into the category of good person than good mystic. In my opinion, teleporting groups to the foothills is a very worthy pursuit for a mystic because there are some very important secrets there that need to be uncovered, and the teleportation is key in making those secrets more achievable. Opening illusions is sometimes just under the category of betterment for Puddleby (and sometimes other mystics in the case of visits to the amulet trainers) and sometimes under the category of pursuit of knowledge.

I think it would be ideal if this person cares about the guild, respects the mystic profession and upholds the guild's values and secrets where reasonable, but I also feel that the guild is not perfect (yes I know I'm not in it and I can't comment, but nothing's perfect therefore the guild isn't either) and that a good mystic would do their best to better the guild as well and not just blindly follow. Perhaps I'm just too much of an optimist to feel that this is something a new PWC could do, but I honestly feel it's possible if given the chance, and I think it's a damn shame that the guild would rather consider Manticore unrecoverable IC instead of trying to work with him and possibly make him a mystic the guild could be proud of. In all this time the guild considered him insane, did they ever try to get him treatment? If he's possessed why not try to get him help instead of just harass him? Is locking Manticore up in the library really the only way?

[Lex]

Himitsu, ANYONE who has similar skills to another, makes that other person a little less important. 3 bakers in town each get a share of the baking business instead of all of it if there was just one.

Yes, some msytics do different things than other mystics, but there are important things that many of them do. Locating and illusion opening is something almost all mystics do...

...to some extent. I realize some are better than others. But I won't seek out Callia or Valtrim to locate a fallen if Ghoti is right there in town willing to help. They become *a little* less important.

Hell, I'm almost non-existent. There are so many 3rd

[Lex]

Originally posted by Kiriel
There seem to be a lot of posts that are assuming that a transferred mystic is automatically going to be a pocket mystic. I don't see why those two things are necessarily connected. There is no reason that just because a mystic gets transferred, that the person they're transferred to wouldn't like to play them as a real mystic and really take them seriously. Given the current attitude the mystic guild holds towards transferred mystics though, it's nearly impossible for one to really play a proper mystic, which tends to drive a transferred mystic to pocket mystichood.

Kiriel I agree 100%. But as I said before, manticore was rarely seen except for 5 minutes at a time to open something. If, perhaps, he was seen for a while talking with other mystics or just "being around" this may have played out very differently. It's like me joining WoD and within 5 minutes asking to borrow the entire clan treasury. I didn't "earn it" yet even though I'm a clan member. I am perfectly willing to treat Manticore (or Nyssa or Sylune or any other mystic that is rarely seen) as a "real" mystic if they at least take part in the Puddleby community.

Lex

[Himitsu]

aa salutes Kiriel

For what it's worth, your words brought a tear to my eye and a lump to my throat. It's what I believe in and why I became a Mystic in the first place.

<hr>

To Lex, there's such a thing as competition and not everyone is equally skilled in everything. For example, I get my clothes repaired by Serra Lorne and I would do so even if Kodel were right by her. Why? Serra speaks halfling and she always has a treat (yummy food!) and I like that. I'll give her my business because of this.

If Ghoti, Callia, and Valtrim were in town and you had a fallen that needed locating you probably wouldn't have to go ask anyone because Ghoti would have announced where they were already. Why? Even though some consider her annoying she advertises her services often enough so that people get into a habit of sharing and toggling her when they need help. Even though Callia and Valtrim might have more locating skill I share with Ghoti first because she is more devoted to locating from what I can see.

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Lex
Kiriel I agree 100%. But as I said before, manticore was rarely seen except for 5 minutes at a time to open something. If, perhaps, he was seen for a while talking with other mystics or just "being around" this may have played out very differently. It's like me joining WoD and within 5 minutes asking to borrow the entire clan treasury. I didn't "earn it" yet even though I'm a clan member. I am perfectly willing to treat Manticore (or Nyssa or Sylune or any other mystic that is rarely seen) as a "real" mystic if they at least take part in the Puddleby community.

Hidden stated elsewhere in this thread, if I recall correctly, that he had Manticore only for a week. I'd like to give a person a little more leeway in deciding the direction of a character before saying that their grace period is over. Heck, it could have been an unexpectedly busy week too and he just didn't have the time.

[Drablak]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lex
[B]Hell, I'm almost non-existent. There are so many 3rd

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Lex
Kiriel I agree 100%. But as I said before, manticore was rarely seen except for 5 minutes at a time to open something. If, perhaps, he was seen for a while talking with other mystics or just "being around" this may have played out very differently.Funny, I've been out of the library for 90 minutes (I lie fallen as I write this) and you haven't invited me on one FH raid or KI hunt yet. Hell, you haven't even sunstoned me. I shall assume therefore that you hate me and never plan to invite me anywhere again. This saddens me :(

(I love using people's own logic against them)

[Luminary]

Sigh, it's so difficult finding an appropriate place to start, so I'll just jump in, and ramble my way to a conclusion.

First, a couple of "lesser" points:

'thea: Thanks for letting the rest of the world know about this discussion.

Dande: I feel your pain. I've tried and failed several times in composing an appropriate response.

Cori: An excellent discussion of similarities between the Bard and Mystic professions. Perhaps even better than you realize.

Lundar and Robin: Thanks for taking the flak for the rest of us.

Now on to the "larger" issues.

I have known Manticore for a very long time. Before the Ripture War, we hunted together often. We explored new areas, eagerly searching for the secret to becoming mystics, all the while contributing wood to the Mystic Academy builder in the East Field. We cursed the gods after every Chaos Storm without any new signs of our desired profession.

When, finally, mystic training became available to us, we leapt at the chance, becoming some of Puddleby's first apprentices.

When Ballou brought our first wands to us (yes, he delivered back then), we experimented with our new abilities with the zeal of children, finding several, err, interesting uses. We laughed at our pitiful abilities, and joked about training with Blastus (an 'expensive' 80 ranks!) to improve our skills.

We approached the Ripture War with trepidation, unsure of our survival. We did what we could during that time. I saw little of Manticore during the War, but I knew he felt the same way I did when our fellow exiles finally triumphed and were reborn into the new Puddleby.

The Manticore I will remember is the friend that I had during those times.

We grew apart after the War. I spent an extended amount of time in Perdition, and when I emerged, he seemed changed.

He had chosen a path that led to rapid advancement, I had chosen a path that (I thought) would never lead to being a Full Mystic. Whenever I approached him, he would look at me strangely, and treat me no differently than he would an average apprentice.

There were a couple of flashes of the old Manticore, when we could share memories of the past, but all in all, he had changed.

While I had suspected that Manticore had suffered some sort of the affliction of the soul, I did not know for sure until after I had finally achieved the Full Mystic rank.

It was then that I learned, while the Mystics were concerned about the state of Manticore's soul and memories, they still viewed him as a slightly senile, but harmless and eccentric family member.

There was even hope that Manticore's extensive training could lead to a breakthrough for his fellow Mystics.

The hope of his success, and the feeling of responsibility to a family member led to the other Mystics assuming the burden of Manticore's Mystic responsibilities. They offered instruction to his abandoned students and performed his 'other duties' for him.

Such has been the arrangement, with Manticore as the "crazy aunt", until recently.

Lately, Manticore's behavior has shown that he can no longer be considered "harmless." He has avowed himself to an openly anti-mystic guild stance. His lack of understanding of the consequences of his latest actions has shown, at best a lapse of the wisdom and foresight required of Mystics of his rank, and at worst, a blatant disregard for the safety of Puddleby and its residents.

Neige recognized a danger in Manticore's actions. While he might have hoped that Manticore would not be able to gather enough support, or the raid would fail, as it had in previous attempts, he also knew that the only way to guarantee that Manticore would not gain a stone was to act when he did.

I feel the pain and frustration of all those hurt by Neige's timing, and wish that I could offer words or actions that would heal those wounds. However, I cannot say that, had I been in Neige's position, I would have done anything differently.

A number of senior Mystics have made private offers to Manticore, before his recent problems, to help him re-learn that which he once valued. I wish to make that offer public, to offer Manticore a chance to show that all is not lost, and that a spark of my old friend is still there.

I cannot say that re-training with me will be easy, or even successful, for I have never advanced a student beyond the apprentice rank. But, given time and patience, I think Manticore can be welcomed back into the Mystic community.

Luminary

[Noah]

Originally posted by Lundar

There are many IC objections and explanations for Manticore's behavior. During the period when Noah controlled Manticore, the explanation was insanity. Manticore had, during the course of his studies, somehow snapped, and completely lost his mind, as well as his memory. We treated him not as a criminal, but as a friend who has lost his mind, and though he occaisionally inconvinienced us, he was relateively harmless.
[/B]

That is, the explanation that you used to describe Manticore's erratic behavior was insanity. That is perfectly fine, as you are free to label whoever you want as insane, but there was more to it than that. Along with attending meetings, speaking with and helping Apprentices and Journeymen, helping promote mystics (including Sutai and some others), and participating in several FMOCRs, the Manticore under my control was not entirely mindless.

During some FMOCRs there was in fact opposition to Manticore obtaining an orga stone, which I understood. When this opposition arose I allowed others to get the orga stone instead of myself. I spoke with some FMs about this and they agreed that if everyone who wanted a stone had one then it would be fine if Manticore got one (I don't know if they still hold these opinions). So, if there was nobody in the lands (or scheduled to be in the lands) during a FMOCR who was a FM and wanted an orga stone, it would be okay for Manticore to get one.

I wasn't around when Manticore attempted to get an orga stone in the most recent FMOCR, but if there were no other Full Mystics present who had the intention of getting a stone for themself, then I think there was some great misunderstanding in what transpired.

Note: The activity of Manticore under my control was before a very long period of idleness in which I was unable to clan for OOC reasons.

[Noah]

Originally posted by Luminary


Lately, Manticore's behavior has shown that he can no longer be considered "harmless." He has avowed himself to an openly anti-mystic guild stance. His lack of understanding of the consequences of his latest actions has shown, at best a lapse of the wisdom and foresight required of Mystics of his rank, and at worst, a blatant disregard for the safety of Puddleby and its residents.

Damn! I <b>should</b> have given Manticore to Sutai. That way he would still be harmless as well as a crazy aunt ;)

[Lex]

Originally posted by Himitsu
Hidden stated elsewhere in this thread, if I recall correctly, that he had Manticore only for a week.

He may have OWNED (ooc) Manticore for a week, but I know that PWC Hidden had access to Manticore and had been clicking for him, at least some of the time, for much longer. Months at least.

Lex

[Lex]

Originally posted by Hidden
Funny, I've been out of the library for 90 minutes (I lie fallen as I write this) and you haven't invited me on one FH raid or KI hunt yet. Hell, you haven't even sunstoned me. I shall assume therefore that you hate me and never plan to invite me anywhere again. This saddens me :(

Well first, I don't hate Manticore (how could I?), you seem to suggest I do.

It's not about MY relationship to Hidden or Manticore, it's about him being a part of Puddleby or being a "tool" (as others have put it). Hidden IS a part of Puddleby whether I like him or not. He goes on hunts, he's well-known, he's got a personality people remember the next time they see him.

I have more than one character. If they did nothing but assist Lex in her tasks, that would be character abuse. But they don't. They have their own lives and their own circle of friends (to some extent there is overlap, but it's not 100%).

Lex

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Lex
He may have OWNED (ooc) Manticore for a week, but I know that PWC Hidden had access to Manticore and had been clicking for him, at least some of the time, for much longer. Months at least.But he wasn't really my character to play then, was he?

[Lex]

Hidden, when I first heard of Manticore going for a stone I didn't like the idea, even though I didn't really think much when he appeared to open noth or scarmis. After a while I decided it didn't really matter much either way. His getting a stone is to some considered character abuse, but putting that argument aside, it doesn't really affect me all that much.

However, there are people that I'm friends with who it DOES matter to, so out of repect to them, I'm willing to at least entertain the idea that Manticore does not "deserve" a stone. They make some good arguments. However, the root of their arguments is that it limits their influence and power, their necessity to the community, by spreading it out over a larger number of people. Because their interests are largely self-serving, I tend to support them a little less.

There is a lot of talk that goes something like this: "I [support/do not support] Manticore and here's why...", most of which doesn't help to resolve anything. I haven't made up my mind yet, and I'm sure I'm not alone. If Manticore becomes a character, and not a tool, I would be willing to interact with him as a character. But trying to get an orga stone, before he's established as a character, obviously wasn't a very popular move.

[Luminary]

Originally posted by Hidden:
But he wasn't really my character to play then, was he?
No, but surely Adam & Noah have relayed on Manticore's personality, his likes and dislikes, his personal foibles, who his friends and enemies are, who his students are and how they are progressing, what his skills and techniques are, and a goodly amount of his history. They must have transferred to you the "essense" of Manticore along with the character. Otherwise, all you have is a collection of ranks and a blank slate.

Luminary

[Delirium]

OOC

I still can't make up my mind where I stand on this one. However, the whole "Character vs. tool" issue is central to my feelings. This is because CL is, to me, a role-playing game. I play more to advance my character's stories than to gain ranks. I do also enjoy the video-game aspects of CL, but if that was all there was to it, I would have stopped playing long ago. The fact that Delirium is still 2nd circle while her ranks are close to many who have passed 4th is evidence of this.

As far as things on the character vs. tool issue go:

1) Although Hidden has only had full control of Manticore for a short time, he has had access for a much longer time. As far as I know, he was circumspect about not doing any promotions, but he did use Manticore simply as a tool to open mystic paths.

2) In the time that Hidden did have control over Manticore, did he bring Manticore out at all to simply play Manticore? I can't say one way or the other, but I'm not aware of him having done so. His request for help in getting the stone seemed to be as "Hidden clicking for Manticore," not for a seperate character.

3) Mehan know Hidden better than I do, and she's a good friend in CL, but her arguments seem to me to imply that Hidden plans to get the stone to enhance Maticore's usefulness as a tool. Sorry to say it, Mehan, but your arguments actually weekened Hidden's case, in my mind.

On the other hand, I think that using courts to interrupt a raid is a pretty nasty thing to do.

Hidden - I'd feel differently if you did more to play Manticore as a different character. You are absolutly correct when you accuse the FM's of being a pompus good old boy network - but I've always thought that was by design. After all, isn't HGM the Mystic GM?

I don't think the mystic guild will accept Manticore clicked by Hidden if you do manage to get another mystic character advanced to FM any more than they do now. I don't think keeping him in the Library is the answer. I think you should play him and make him a different character than Hidden. Breathe some life into Manticore - you may not win any friends among the good old boys, but you could win over enough exiles to get that stone, and keep the mystic guild from stopping you. Keeping him in the library is just more evidence that you see him as a tool and not a character. You need to pursude us that Manticore is a seperate character.

-Delirium

[Unregistered]

From the Clicker:

Way back in the beginning of this thread it was stated that the Full Mystics will not promote anyone else to FM until they are given the power to revoke that status. On the newsgroup HelpfullGM has essentially said that this will never happen. Is this indeed the position of the FMs, that they aren't going to promote anyone until DT caves, though that looks extrememly unlikely?

The stated reason for this was that they were upset about mystic transfer and pocket mystics. Is it just me, or is this not incredibly insulting to Rincewind, Drablak, Himitsu, Ghoti, Hepta and others who are clearly devoted to their mystic characters? If true they are essentially saying, "We won't promote anyone because even with these apparently dedicated mystics we're afraid they're going to turn around and do something completely contrary to what they have been doing all along." I haven't heard anything from any FM that contradicts the no promotions statements, so I have to assume that is their attitude. I can understand that no JM wants to say anything publically, but still...

I assume that most people want their characters to gain status, even those who are much more interested in the fun along the way. I'd assume that everyone who plays a healer wants to eventually pass the 4th circle test (or at least have the chance to pass it) even if they spend more than half their ranks on horus or try to pass by killing the beasts because that's more fun for them. I'd assume that everyone who plays a fighter wants to collect as many cool belts as they can, even if they don't optimize or RW and they train in some bizarre fashion that gets them there very slowly. I know mystis are different, but I'd still think that most players of AMs and JMs want to eventually be FMs, be it for the status or the new skills and knowledge. Now statements that essentially say there will be no more FMs go unchallenged; Looks like all the current AMs ans JMs are just plain out of luck, which is probably very dissappointing to them. Further, I'd say that any new player who knew the truth would opt not to go down that path, knowing it was capped. Of course, that information is not easy for a new player to come by, and maybe the FMs want it that way. If they are still taking on apprentices given the current guild policy, that is pretty mean-spirited in my opinion, unless they do state up-front "by they way, we aren't promoting anyone else to FM until DT makes this change we want." The term bait and switch comes to mind.

If there are no more new FMs their number will dwindle. Its very likely that eventually they could even die out. Fortunately, from what I've seen the game can continue without, though with difficulty.

[Luminary]

Unnamed source:
Way back in the beginning of this thread it was stated that the Full Mystics will not promote anyone else to FM until they are given the power to revoke that status. On the newsgroup HelpfullGM has essentially said that this will never happen.

To quote someone else:
"You are mistaken. Doubly so."

While you may wish for me to elaborate, there is no need. Simply knowing that your premises are incorrect should be enough.

A Full Mystic

[Aravir]

Originally posted by Unregistered
From the Clicker:

Way back in the beginning of this thread it was stated that the Full Mystics will not promote anyone else to FM until they are given the power to revoke that status. On the newsgroup HelpfullGM has essentially said that this will never happen. Is this indeed the position of the FMs, that they aren't going to promote anyone until DT caves, though that looks extrememly unlikely?

A review of earlier posts in this thread reveals that it was Jo Ma'ril who said that. However, Lundar posted this in an earlier message (before Jo):

First of all, let me try to make this absolutely clear: Students are promoted when they are ready, based on their indivisual merit. I have no idea why people have got it into their heads that Manticore is hindering anyone's progress-- this is completely false.

I leave it to individual readers to decide who is a more credible source on the subject of mystic advancement.

[Koric]

Ummm, okay. So now we're back to the mystic guild saying, "The reason we're not promoting anyone is none of your business, but it doesn't have anything at all to do with the inability to demote FM's. We can't explain further, sorry. Go away."? I think I liked it better when the only explanation out there was Jo's.

Suppose all existing "pocket" mystics with FM abilities (including some JM openers) like Manticore, Nyssa, Selucreh (is that the whole list?) were reset. Would that solve the problem (since DT won't allow demotion) and return us to a more normal promotion rate (varying over time, of course), whatever that may be?

I suppose I shouldn't bother asking because I'm sure I'll hear about three different supposedly credible answers from mystics, but what the heck.

[Luminary]

Originally posted by Koric:
Ummm, okay. So now we're back to the mystic guild saying, "The reason we're not promoting anyone is none of your business, but it doesn't have anything at all to do with the inability to demote FM's. We can't explain further, sorry. Go away."? I think I liked it better when the only explanation out there was Jo's.

Yup, at least in my book. Although I would have changed your wording a bit.

I'm sorry you don't like the fact that the Mystic Guild does not publicize a map on how to become a Full Mystic for everyone to see, but that is how the guild is run.

More Koric:
Suppose all existing "pocket" mystics with FM abilities...were reset. Would that solve the problem...and return us to a more normal promotion rate, ...whatever that may be?

Nope. Again, at least not in my book.

Besides, who's to say that the current rate of promotion is not "normal"?

The bottom line is, that the general public has little, or no say as to how the Guild is run. Promotions are an internal affair, and arguing over who should be promoted, or not, and when, while serving to vent frustration, has little effect on the candidate's eligibility in the Guild's eyes.

That is not to say that the Guild Council is not open to listening to suggestions. They frequent most public forums (including this one), and any formal requests that you (y'all) have may be relayed to the Council through a Full Mystic.

Luminary

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Koric
Would that solve the problem (since DT won't allow demotion) and return us to a more normal promotion rate (varying over time, of course), whatever that may be?Frankly, as with many other posts in this thread, I asked myself if I should comment or not. But, being a curious person, I could not resist the urge to ask some questions.
I am a JM mystic myself, with hopes of making it to FM eventually. I am of course very concerned about what is required to become a FM. But I wonder what is bothering you more in this case Koric? Is it the lack of FM to open illusions or teleport, or is it a perceived lack of fairness in the promotion process? I ask because it strikes me that, from your statement, you beleive that the rate of FM promotion is not what it should be, yet admit you have no idea what it should be.

It's an interesting question: what should be the promotion rate? That made me think of the situation from a different perspective. Take fighters, what is an acceptable promotion rate for them? It depends on level of course. How many 6th circle fighters are there? Is that number acceptable? Why?

I am not just throwing smoke here, ask yourself these questions seriously.

Thinking on that, I beleive that one condition to get a 6th circle fighter is that it be an older exile, one that was in the lands a long time ago. It must also be an exile who did not leave after a time because the lands did not appeal to her anymore. She must have formed friendships along the way to be able to get to those places where advanced fighters can face a challenge and to learn and enjoy themselves. Is there more or less fighters these days than many years ago when the current 6th circle fighter were exiled? Why aren't there more 6th circle fighters?

The best reason I can see is that most older exiles who could now be 6th have left the lands. The result is that there are less people that qualify to be 6th.

Now about mystics. If I knew what is required to be a FM I could probably not say it anyway, but nonetheless, imagine that there are a number of requirements, say 3 (a number pulled out of a hat). Is it hard to imagine that maybe the reason that there are not many promotions to FM is simply that there are not many people who have all the 3 requirements? There are not many people that chose the mystic path, and of those who do, many quit. Who can force a situation where more JM with the 3 requirements are in the lands?

Now consider this. You, and many others, seem to be hurt by the fact that those requirements are kept secret. *I* would very much like to know what these requirements are, beleive me. I, like many others I am sure, wonder why some very good JM are not promoted. I am probably more concerned than non-mystics because I cannot but wonder if I will not be one myself one day (a very good yet unpromoted JM that is).

Yet, doesn't the present discussion shed some light on a posible reason behind the secrecy? What would happen if I told you that to become a FM you had to do this and that? People have said it before, mystics aren't about ranks, otherwise many JM would be FM. So it's about the personality of the mystic, his attitude, etc. Say I told you you needed to behave a certain way, wouldn't I run the risk that you'd play the role for as long as it takes to get promoted?

Now, this is just speculation on my part, because the reason for secrecy is secret too [:)] but it may give an idea of why it may be necessary. People extrapolate that the guild hoards all kinds of secrets, but I beleive it only keep secrets that concern the promotion process.

[Mehan]

Originally posted by Jo the Unregistered
She threw a lot of assumptions up there with little backing and got curt responses. If she put a lot of time into researching the post I would have put a lot of time into rebutting it.


I didn't throw assumptions out there, and if you had read them and then THOUGHT about it, instead of just saying, Oh, you're wrong! maybe we could get a nice discussion going. But no. I'm wrong. We don't need Mystics! Down with Mystics!!

[Kiriel]

In reading Drablak's post about promotion, an interesting analogy popped into my head. It seems to me that promotion for a fighter or a healer is a little like it is in school. The requirements are fairly well known- you have clear tests you have to pass to progress and you can choose whether to focus more on learning for learning's sake or on test passing, but if you just train to the test you may do better in it, but it may not make you a better fighter or healer or student.

Now in the case of promotion of mystics, it seems it is a little more like trying to get a girl to fall in love with you (since I am a girl I have to admit I don't really know what it's like from the boy's side, but I do see movies :) Every girl has their own ideas of what they like and they don't write those down for you. If you try too hard it can hurt your chances, just as if you don't try hard enough. To a certain extent it's important to be yourself, but at the same time you have to be careful of the girl's feelings and make sure you don't mess up your chances. Also, you can try all you like, but you have no guarantee things will ever work out between you.

Of course I've never played a mystic, so I can't really say how true this may be, but it's the impression I get from the outside looking in.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Kiriel
an interesting analogy popped into my head. [snip excellent anology about trying to win a girl's love] I like your analogy Kiriel, I think it illustrates very well the possible intricacies involved.

Now, seriously, aren't I exquisitely thoomy? [:D]

[Fogtripper]

\action reads Kiriel's analogy, looks up with a glazed look and runs to check his look in the mirror.

\ponder now where'd I put that book. Ah! Here it is..."Women are from Venus, Mystics are from Sol"

:cool:

[Koric]

If you're going to say that I want you to give us all the guidelines for promotion to full mystic, at least have the decency to quote something I've said that even remotely resembles that. Wanting to know why promotions have stopped is not the same as asking how one gets promoted. I was happily surprised when I thought I had the answer to the former. I never expected an answer to the latter and, indeed, I never asked.

Two things bother me, since you asked (but neither is a huge problem). One is that the current system of promotion, viewed from an outside perspective, seems awfully unfair. That's all. I don't know the criteria for promotion, and for the last time I don't *want* to know. But from my very limited perspective, it seems to me like the current class of JM's has an awful lot in common with the current class of FM's back when they were JM's. I don't see any dramatic differences in overall personality, style, training, etc that would seem to justify such a backlog of JM's.

Second is the relative lack of FM's in the lands. How many should be in the lands? Well, if you're asking me for my opinion, which I know carries zero weight, then I would say doubling the number of FM's over the next ooc year would be a good start. Why? Because I want myself and my friends and the community enjoy the benefits of more FM's in the lands at a variety of different time windows. I want to see the various plots involving the orga, the 'brions, Dal'Noth, etc. advance, and that happens best with the help of FM's in most cases.

As I said before, it seems that currently the lack of promotions benefits one and only one group of people in the lands: currently existing full mystics. They choose to keep their motivations secret, but I think a lot of us take it on faith that if we support them, the World will be a Better Place, etc. In the end, the mystic council receives our support (tangible and intangible) based on our faith in the mystic characters and our faith in the way the council was set up in the first place.

If Jo is right, I thought I heard a motivation I can believe in and support. If not, then I have to say my faith continues to weaken as more time passes and the current trends continue. Who knows? Maybe that's the goal of the council.

[Unregistered]

Gosh. I hadn't originally meant to post unregistered, but given the tone of Luminary's and Aravir's responses I'm glad I messed up there.

It was an honest request for clarification, and an expression of why I thought it was sad if true. Jo's words had been the final word on the subject and had gone unchallenged. I knew he was a fighter, but he seems to be a well-connected one.

I guess I'm glad if the guild is going to promote people after all, though of course the answer was vague

Originally posted by Luminary


The bottom line is, that the general public has little, or no say as to how the Guild is run.

This is sorta true, and I realized it before I posted, but its not true that the general public can do nothing in response to the guild. Before this discussion I thought of myself as fairly pro-mystic, but I'm not feeling that way right now. There are things an exile can do, like not sharing mystics, not asking for help from mystics, not helping mystics, and not keeping the puzzle locations secret. I wouldn't have considered it before now, but some of the mystics here are starting to change my mind. The single non-cooperation of one weak character is not going to have much impact, but its still doing something.

[Aravir]

Originally posted by Unregistered
Gosh. I hadn't originally meant to post unregistered, but given the tone of Luminary's and Aravir's responses I'm glad I messed up there.

It was an honest request for clarification, and an expression of why I thought it was sad if true. Jo's words had been the final word on the subject and had gone unchallenged. I knew he was a fighter, but he seems to be a well-connected one.

Hmm. I thought I had provided clarification by quoting Lundar, but if someone's lumping my tone in with Luminary's I must have come off sounding rude. Sorry, that wasn't my intention.

When I said that individual readers had to decide who was more credible, I meant that literally. As in, I don't know myself, so if you know both Jo and Lundar you can probably arrive at a more accurate conclusion than I can.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Koric
If you're going to say that I want you to give us all the guidelines for promotion to full mystic, at least have the decency to quote something I've said that even remotely resembles that.
Originally posted by Drablak
Now consider this. You, and many others, seem to be hurt by the fact that those requirements are kept secret.Is this why you are apparently angry at my post? "Decency"? What in my post insulted you exactly?

You ask why the rate of promotion isn't bigger, and I tried to give some insight on a possible reason for it. I am trying to find an analogy for what you asked: the father goes to his child's teacher and asks "why did my daughter not graduate? But please don't talk to me about any of the requirements to graduate, as I don't want to know, I just want to know why she did not graduate?" and then he thinks to himself "I'm sure I'll get an evasive answer" Go figure.

I really don't know why you'd be upset about my post. I said you seemed to be hurt by the secrecy of the guild regarding requirements for promotion. If that's not the case, just say so, don't get excited.

[Koric]

Not angry at you, Drablak. I just don't understand why you (and Luminary) seem to think I want to know how a JM gets promoted. I don't see anyone asking that specific question, certainly not me. It's like me saying, gee, Drablak, I am sorry that you want me to always /share /lock you, but I can't do that. You never asked!

Originally posted by Drablak

You ask why the rate of promotion isn't bigger, and I tried to give some insight on a possible reason for it. I am trying to find an analogy for what you asked: the father goes to his child's teacher and asks "why did my daughter not graduate? But please don't talk to me about any of the requirements to graduate, as I don't want to know, I just want to know why she did not graduate?" and then he thinks to himself "I'm sure I'll get an evasive answer" Go figure.


This analogy would be accurate if I were simply a person living in the neighborhood with no children at the school, and I said: "Why are children in the neighborhood all flunking out of school now? Have the requirements for graduation changed? Have the children changed? It doesn't look that way to me. Is there a good reason behind this apparent change? If so, please explain it to me. As a member of the community, I believe it is in my interests to see children graduating from school, hence my concern."

The other problem with your analogy is the fact that I have every right to know the requirements (and I *WOULD* ask) to graduate from a school because of the system of accountability we have in place in a democracy. The mystic guild doesn't exist within any kind of democracy and so we have no enforceable right to demand answers. No law exists for this. Another problem is that it is clearly in everyone's interest for children to graduate. It may not be in everyone's interest for more JM's to be promoted.

I don't think analogies are needed here. The problem is not a lack of understanding of the issue, it is a lack of information.

[Luminary]

Originally posted by Koric:
Wanting to know why promotions have stopped is not the same as asking how one gets promoted.

Not entirely true. The two may be closely related, as one could be the cause of the other. If there are no qualified candidates, then no promotions will occur.

More Koric:
One is that the current system of promotion, viewed from an outside perspective, seems awfully unfair.

Would it reassure you if I said, unequivocably, that the promotion system is fair?

Would you ask me to substiantiate my claim? If so, you are asking me to explain why candidates are not being promoted, or why certain Mystics were advanced, and then we are back to the "Mystic Roadmap."

Koric again:
Second is the relative lack of FM's in the lands. How many should be in the lands?

I have no answer for you. The only 'official' numbers that I remember was a ratio of 6/4/1, fighter to healer to mystic (An old c.m.s.g.a post by Joe or HGM). If 5% of mystics are Full Mystics, that would yield around 14 FMs for a total town population of 3000.

Your opinion is not valuless, and does not fall on deaf ears. As I said, the Council does listen to the opinions of other exiles, and take them under advisement when determining policy.

Likewise, individual Mystics are even more likely to listen to the opinions of their friends and respected community members. I happen to agree with you that there should be more Full Mystics, and I have been actively seeking candidates that would meet the qualifications.

However, finding a promising candidate is not easy. 'Mistakes' cannot be corrected, and it takes time to really get to know a candidate (Weren't you a big supporter of Neige for FM a while back?).

To our anonymous friend: I'm sorry if I came out sounding brusque, but I felt it necessary squash the misconceptions quickly.

Luminary

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Drablak

You ask why the rate of promotion isn't bigger, and I tried to give some insight on a possible reason for it.

For all we non-mystic know, the reason could very well be that the individuals who originally were gung-ho about organizing meetings, keeping track of apprentices, and making decisions all lost interest. That happened to the Bard Guild a couple of years ago, and we had to essentially start over with fresh blood.

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Luminary
No, but surely Adam & Noah have relayed on Manticore's personality, his likes and dislikes, his personal foibles, who his friends and enemies are, who his students are and how they are progressing, what his skills and techniques are, and a goodly amount of his history. They must have transferred to you the "essense" of Manticore along with the character.
I don't, and have never known (to my knowledge) Adam. Noah has given me the very very very bare basics to work with, but I think it's pretty clear who Manticore's friends and enemies are (if the insane have "friends" and "enemies", that is)

[Drablak]

I'm glad you're not angry at me. But about analogy, they aren't meant to be perfect, but to illustrate a point. But your rebutal of the analogy also illustrates many valid points.

The point I was trying to make with this analogy and with my previous post is that there is no answer that would satisfy you that you don't already know. A mystic said plainly in this thread that candidates are promoted strickly on their merit and when they are ready. If there aren't more mystic promoted it's simply because there are no JM qualified to be promoted. Why did your daughter not graduate? Because she did not have the grades.

Now, your comments on the analogy are valid. But please agree that the answer to "why are so many students failing in school these days?" isn't as straightforward to answer.

Regarding mystics, maybe the requirements changed over time. Maybe other games attract those who would appreciate the mystic path, thus stealing them away. You've been around for longer than me, maybe you can guess better than me.

What really bugs me with some people's reaction to all this is that, since they are angry at the council for "being unfair to JMs" they propose to do things like stop sharing mystics, thus hurting the mystic community. Isn't that weird?

One way to encourage and help that there be more mystics around, is for each person to help mystics as best they can. Being angry at one mystic, and saying you'll stop helping all mystics because of it is really unfair IMO.

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Delirium
1) Although Hidden has only had full control of Manticore for a short time, he has had access for a much longer time. As far as I know, he was circumspect about not doing any promotions, but he did use Manticore simply as a tool to open mystic paths....and only when there was no other way to open those paths. I talked with Sutai about it and he said that was less-bad than using Manticore over a mystic sitting in town.
2) His request for help in getting the stone seemed to be as "Hidden clicking for Manticore," not for a seperate character.To my knowledge, nothing to that end was anywhere in my request for help. To the LIFE and CoNGA lists (of which you are a member of neither) I merely requested aid in an FMOCR for "Mystic Manticore", providing no more further details than the time, but with the impression that Manticore was a separate entity. In the lands, I merely asked "Will you help with FMOCR?"
3) Mehan know Hidden better than I do, and she's a good friend in CL, but her arguments seem to me to imply that Hidden plans to get the stone to enhance Maticore's usefulness as a tool. Sorry to say it, Mehan, but your arguments actually weekened Hidden's case, in my mind.Mehan does not and never has spoken for me. I have never spoken to her at length about Manticore, so take wht she says in that regard with a large grain of salt.
Keeping him in the library is just more evidence that you see him as a tool and not a character. You need to pursude us that Manticore is a seperate character.Keeping him in the library signifies that I see the ammount of OOC bitching about it that would be done if I regularly played Manticore, and the sheer # of people trying to push me around, OOC, would be greater than the sum total fun I had playing him. Dealing with controversies centered around me has never been my strong suit and I hope I never have enough experience with it to let it become so.

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Luminary
It was then that I learned, while the Mystics were concerned about the state of Manticore's soul and memories, they still viewed him as a slightly senile, but harmless and eccentric family member.
To me he was nothing more than an odd, and perhaps slightly deranged supporter who pledged his help in return for occasionally being allowed out of the library, since Noah had passed on access to his library card to me before leaving the lands (since keeping a fellow in the library forever would be a terribly cruel thing to do.)
Neige recognized a danger in Manticore's actions. While he might have hoped that Manticore would not be able to gather enough support, or the raid would fail, as it had in previous attempts, he also knew that the only way to guarantee that Manticore would not gain a stone was to act when he did.When Manticore asked me to gather support for him to attempt to get a stone, which he has in all fairness worked his whole life for, I did realize there would be some controversy over this, and resisted at first, but his pleading wore me down, and I decided that I could weather a couple of bad karma and a few angry words from Mystics who had never been very civil to me in the first place. I did not realize, nor was I informed until now that there was any danger in what he was trying to do. I see now that Manticore cannot be trusted to take care of himself as I trust most exiles to do, and I apologize for my lapse in judgement.
A number of senior Mystics have made private offers to Manticore, before his recent problems, to help him re-learn that which he once valued. I wish to make that offer public, to offer Manticore a chance to show that all is not lost, and that a spark of my old friend is still there.

I have talked to Manticore about your offer, and he says he needs time to think about it. At first he was very resistant to the idea of becoming an apprentice again, but when I pointed out that he didn't really have much say in the matter since I hold his library card, he softened a bit.

Sadly, he doesn't remember you well, or in fact anything before the last few zodiacs, and I believe he may have some kind of degenerative brain disease that would need to be cured before his retraining could begin. I am sure it could be cured eventually, but it may take some time if he decides that he will indeed take you up on your generous offer.

In the mean time, he is under guard by large burly men with swords under my payroll in one of the libraries (I cannot say which, for fear that one of his supporters may try to free him, and that would be most unfortunate).

[Unregistered]

This whole shebang is full of fermented tor guts! While I do not agree that transfer of Full-Mystic character is a bug, I feel that I need to speak my mind about the larger scope of the game...

I don't particularly care if one transfer full-fledged characters (whether that be fighter, healer, or mystic) to another clicker of no relevant experience. For this reason, I would love to abolish OOC promotion mechanism of Mystic Council and let the promotion be based similar to fighter/healer circle test. That is, free of clicker conferred mechanism. The same goes for the Bard Guild. If the character is played ineptly, others will see and respond to it accordingly whether it be IC or OOC.

Yes, this would greatly affect the value of mystics (bards, and other so-called "pocket" characters). To those who have worked hard in creating their characters, they are simply rewarded by those who recognize their works and afforded them social regards if they so deserve. If one think about this, certain "lower-ranking" characters are highly regarded than other "higher-ranking" characters despite their total ranks, circle placement, and even music talents.

The game does provide merit-based advancement, so do other clicker via IC/OOC-ish social interactions which bestow one with certain prestige and regards. I do not believe that mystic/bard clickers should be afforded special status of being able to control who gets to be full status by the virtue of social/political culture expertise. Heck, music is a matter of taste which is often reflected by auspices of one's culture exposure.

I simply do not see why mystic class should be treated differently than healer/fighters. What's so special about mystic that it needs to be controlled by a council of clickers?!! Is it because they were most successful at brown-nosing mystic GM/Joe/HelpfulGM? I hope this obsessive secrecy surrounding mystic is going to be its downfall. Hell, almost anyone can be 10th circle fighter/healer if they play the game long enough however ineptly.

I know that it's been publically stated that the journey to full-fledged mystic is for those, in my interpretation, who is "glutton for punishment" or "willing to work so much for so little". I dislike this secrecy surrounding mystic and I don't believe in the guise that it's for enhancing the game for those who likes puzzles and solving riddles. So what if someone wants to create a "pocket" mystic just because they thought that the idea of getting place via door-opening is a hare-brained one. I say, let anyone become mystic and use in-game mechanism for advancement. Mystics as currently implemented still sucks, at least for a long time.

There could be IC explanation for the changes in the transferred character behavior and skills (i.e., insanity, prochronistic talents, amnesia, etc...) even if the new clicker does not provide for one. The transfer of characters is simply an external mechanism bereft of meritocracy which does exist in the real life. Moreover, Clan Lord is just a game, despite efforts of role players, that does contain OOC interactions. There are others who will simply do not need to treat characters (transferred or not) based on IC reasons.

I know that Joe Williams (or Delta Tao) does not wish to see characters being commodity based product and that folks advance faster in lieu of greater disposable income. It seems to me that by having select few clickers who controls character advancement in bard and mystic guild run counter to egalitarianism.

If there are clans, why not several guilds? Hey, what about those who have some sort of disability or impairment (physical or mental) that prevents them to participate fully in the game (i.e., deaf clicker trying to create a bard character, directionally impaired clicker trying to be a pathfinder, etc...)? Hey, how far should we coddle to any particular group?

Hey, speaking of pathfinding! I hate this stupid current in-game mechanism! I would've thought that a pathfinder would lead you to places in shortest amount of time instead of magically tunneling to places. For those who can't pathfind still could not go to the same place by not so short route. I sure hope that's because the map of places are not yet completed. "You're stuck in town because you haven't had Gitouttatown training". Too bad, you have gone to Jannar's Grove and NWF thousand times with a pathfinder and you still can't get in by any other way without pathfinder training and your character probably already had the route deeply etched in the mind. Awww, it will devalue pathfinders if a longer way to get in formerly closed places puts in the place!

Few, if any, of clickers are fighters, healers, or mystic (if that's possible) in the real life. To reiterate my contention that the Clan Lord is just a game but embued with spirits of a diverse set of clickers whether they be rank-whore, role-player, occassional player, player-killer wannabes, evil-character player wannabes, snerts, social butterfly, GM, cheaters, et al.

I'm not going to discuss about cheaters and snerts but I do support mechanism to fix the problem from allowing one to cheat and be snert and they, unfortunately, have place in the game...

Those who are scared shitless of pocket characters, maybe game's not for them! They need to play HelpfulGM Lord with strict play option and let that be their own little island.

Death to Delta Tao!

[Koric]

Originally posted by Luminary

Would it reassure you if I said, unequivocably, that the promotion system is fair?

Only as long as my faith in mystics and the mystic council is strong. From what I can tell, the reason that faith in the system is deserved is simply that it is part of the whole CL package. You either accept it, zen-like, or you SACWAG. Faith in mystics depends upon their words and actions. I'm still listening and watching (and providing occasional unsolicited public feedback).

More by Luminary

However, finding a promising candidate is not easy. 'Mistakes' cannot be corrected, and it takes time to really get to know a candidate (Weren't you a big supporter of Neige for FM a while back?).

I supported Neige on the grounds that at some point, any promotion is better than no promotion. What I knew of Neige suggested he'd be as good as any other FM I knew. Would I support Neige now? If the fantasy world where my opinion on that matters, it would depend on if he still feels justified that his actions were appropriate. All my experiences prior to that point suggested yes, though, so that's good enough. It's the best you can ever hope for in terms of judgement criteria at any given time.

If one of the judgement criteria is now a guarantee against future mistakes, I can see why no one is getting promoted.

[Mehan]

Originally posted by Delirium
OOC
3) Mehan know Hidden better than I do, and she's a good friend in CL, but her arguments seem to me to imply that Hidden plans to get the stone to enhance Maticore's usefulness as a tool. Sorry to say it, Mehan, but your arguments actually weekened Hidden's case, in my mind.


I don't speak for Hidden, I haven't talked to Hidden about it, I don't plan to talk to Hidden about it. The views I put up here are *MY* views. If you don't like them, deal with it, but don't go say they weaken somebody ELSES case. If they weaken anything, it's me.

Hidden won't get the stone. Manticore will get the stone. Even though he has amnesia and is mildly insane (kindly put) *I*... notice *I* think he could be a big support for the puddleby community. *I* think that it could be a help in the FH. *I* don't think Manticore is a tool, *I* just think he's misunderstood.

[John Junkar]

I have watched the discussion for some time now and feel quite concerned for some of the implications that are arising.

To put it simply many here are advocating a strong linkage between characters and PWC.

I struggle to see how there can be any rational position that ties out of game issues to in game issues.

If you start tieing PWC to their characters based on their actions where do you stop?

The only reason I can see for Manticore not being a mystic is if he starts acting against the principals of the Mystic Council. But that is a different issue.

Heck, if we all want true transparency then maybe DT should change the /info command so others can see all the characters you operate....wouldn't that raise a few eyebrows?

[Shen]

I actually like the idea of:

<snip>
Heck, if we all want true transparency then maybe DT should change the /info command so others can see all the characters you operate....wouldn't that raise a few eyebrows?
<snip>

I think the Mystic Council would have fun with that one. We'd see exactly who they are, other than their Mystic counterpart.

I'd just like to say I have worked incredibly hard on my Apprentice Mystic, and have had no success in getting a "Mentor". She's about 4+ ooc years old, (created before the beta ended, circa V 50 or so.) and no one has exactly come to me and asked if I'd like to be promoted. The idea of PWC in control of the advancement of other players, is a pretty real disadvantage. You really have to shovel the s%$^ to get anywhere with a Full Mystic. Except a couple that I know of, for clairification. As far as I know of, I do not and will not kiss @$$ for anything. I am a paying consumer of this game and deserve to know I can actually advance on my own, without the interference of other players. I don't see myself playing as an Apprentice Mystic for much longer, if I can't advance at all. Then at some point, such as right now, I may break myself in thought and say "Screw it, I don't need this crap" and kill my account.

I have worked too hard for what I have and I don't like the idea of having 5+ years with Clanlord go down the drain for one reason alone. I have plenty of reasons to quit Clanlord as it is, and I see this as almost the last straw breaking the camel's back. It was a stupid idea of letting PWC be in control of any advancement in the game. I'll reiterate here for those of you who don't read the NG:

<snip>
Isn't that my right as a player on Clanlord, to decide what I feel I'd like to do? I pay just like everyone else here, and
I can't even get a character to advance. I think that's really screwed up. To give power over all other players to one group of people that can
decide to screw with your playing style or advancement. I mean really, Who the hell even thought of that? Why not have a couple of NPC's
in the Guild, register your progress, and let you know if you are up for an advancement?
<snip>

As for Manticore and Neige, they opened the floodgates on this one. Manticore is clicked by another "owner", but the character remains the same, a little bit different in personality, but the same. Neige was acting on his best interests, whether provoked by another Fm, (as speculated) or his self.They both have the right to do so. Such is my point. We are all paying to play and enjoy the game. No one else should interfere with what we want to do. Fighters train and are promoted by tests, as with healers. Why not have an NPC test us and see if we are up to par with what the training/aptitude requirements are for AM/JM, and FM? Is it so hard to do?

Just a few thoughts..

We well all.[:o]

[Luminary]

Originally posted by John Junkar:
To put it simply many here are advocating a strong linkage between characters and PWC.

I struggle to see how there can be any rational position that ties out of game issues to in game issues.

I cannot speak for all character classes, but I can assure you that there are many definite connections between a Mystic character and their clicker.

A simple example is a result of the way that the Mystic Guild trains its students, based on a mentor-pupil model. A Mystic has one or more pupils, and is responsible for their learning the "ways of the guild" (quoted because I need a general way to refer to specific qualities a student learns).

Ideally, the mentor monitors a student's progress, helping them along their mystic path. The mentor keeps careful track of how they think the student is progressing and the lessons they have learned. This requires the clicker to make judgements (even if from the character's perspective) and maintain a memory of the student and their progress. There is no in-game way of maintaining these memories, it is all OOC. Unless the mentor's clicker has taken a great deal of effort in recording their thoughts, there really is no way to transfer these memories if the mentor is transferred to another clicker.

The lessons are taught in-character, but 99% of the time, the lesson is learned by the student at the same time as their clicker. While the clicker could create another character with this new knowledge, it is nearly impossible to transfer the knowledge to another clicker as one could transfer a character.

The more compelling argument for a close tie between clicker and character comes when you factor in the intelligence of the two.

Generalizing. While it is fairly easy to simulate an avatar's physical characteristics, and even some mental aspects in a role-playing game, the character's interactions with other characters, their vocabulary and manner of speech, and their perceived intelligence, are all limited by the player pulling the strings. While his stat sheet may say his avatar has an IQ of 200, Billy Bonehead, IQ 90, is going to have a hard time role-playing the avatar in a believable fashion.

It is fairly common knowledge that becoming a mystic takes more than just training ranks. If the avatar's interaction skills, manner of speaking, or other "Clicker Intelligence" is crucial to the mystic's advancement, then there is a strong bond between the character and clicker. If the "Clicker Intelligence" changes, then the mystic is no longer the same mystic he was. It is almost as if the character visited Untrainus for his "Clicker Intelligence" ranks.

I realize that there are examples of "Clicker Intelligence" within the other professions, but, generally speaking, fighter or healer "Intelligence" is relatively simple. It involves trained physical responses to a limited number of conditions ("Listen to the leader", "Don't block people", "Don't heal the BBers", etc). This sort of "Intelligence" is relatively easily learned, is fairly universal, and can be passed from clicker to clicker. Furthermore, the "Clicker Intelligence" is not as crucial as fighter or healer trained ranks.

Personally, I would argue against the transfer of _any_ character, but because the "Intelligence" of fighters and healers is fairly easily transferred (or faked), many people do not have issue.

Luminary

[John Junkar]

I'm sorry but that is plain arrogance. Are you now saying you must have a degree of intelligence to be a Mystic? That your real life attributes can limit what sort of character you can play in ClanLord?

Being a skilled fighter or healer requires just as much intelligence....just different sorts.

If you really want to tie someones real life skills to their characters then you will face some real issues.

Tactics is a great example. When in groups generally the senior (highest circle) players take the lead. Does this necessarily reflect whether they have any real skills in tactics beyond their responses to the ClanLord environment? Of course not.

I still wait to see someone post how Manticore, IC, has not acted as a FM should?

[Luminary]

Originally posted by Hidden:
I have talked to Manticore about your offer, and he says he needs time to think about it.

Thank you, Hidden. I hope that Manticore's condition improves soon.

Luminary

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Luminary
I realize that there are examples of "Clicker Intelligence" within the other professions, but, generally speaking, fighter or healer "Intelligence" is relatively simple. It involves trained physical responses to a limited number of conditions ("Listen to the leader", "Don't block people", "Don't heal the BBers", etc). This sort of "Intelligence" is relatively easily learned, is fairly universal, and can be passed from clicker to clicker. Furthermore, the "Clicker Intelligence" is not as crucial as fighter or healer trained ranks.
If that's how you view the other professions, then clearly you have not clicked a fighter or healer greater than 2nd circle. Ask Yor or Koric some time if a well trained monkey could do their jobs.

[Phroon]

I understand that both sides are somewhat wrong (but in different ways), but I don't really understand why Neige did what he did, even if all what I hear about Manticoreis true. I haven't really heard this elusive 'why', could someone give me a plain answer of which version of the 'truth' is the right one?
:confused:

And how about a real IC answer too, since IC actions were taken.

Thoom
-Phroon



[oops, spelling :p]

[Hidden]

Originally posted by John Junkar
I'm sorry but that is plain arrogance. Are you now saying you must have a degree of intelligence to be a Mystic? That your real life attributes can limit what sort of character you can play in ClanLord?I'm sorry to say that is indeed correct. If you can't multiply 6 by 9 in your head, then you probably can't RP a math whiz with any degree of believability. By those same standards, you can't play a powerful and wise mystic if you yourself aren't at least wise. There is no /saysomethingsmart command, fortunately.
Tactics is a great example. When in groups generally the senior (highest circle) players take the lead. Does this necessarily reflect whether they have any real skills in tactics beyond their responses to the ClanLord environment? Of course not.Those people tend to get to their high positions because of their tactical smarts, not because they've stayed in the library. I know several 5th circle fighters who nobody would ever respect enough to lead a hunt, even if they were surrounded in 2nd circlers. Names are not given, to protect the guilty.
I still wait to see someone post how Manticore, IC, has not acted as a FM should?That is not an issue. Manticore is clearly out of his mind, and I don't think anyone disagrees that he has been acting rather unmystical as of late.

[Lex]

Originally posted by John Junkar
Tactics is a great example. When in groups generally the senior (highest circle) players take the lead. Does this necessarily reflect whether they have any real skills in tactics beyond their responses to the ClanLord environment? Of course not.

I've led plenty of hunts that included exiles of all professions who've been in the game more than twice as long as me.

Most people go OOC at least some of the time. You'd be surprised who I've spoken OOC with. Therefore, there is SOME relationship between clickers as well.

And no matter the profession, you can't be an idiot and play a smart character. There are some people playing CL who try to have a "brave knight" fighter character or something similar and just continuously do really stupid things. When I see Sliepnir acting this way, I know it's role-playing, and he does it well. Some people are not role-playing, and they wouldn't be capable of playing an IQ200 character. And you know it when you see it.

Lex

[Lex]

Originally posted by Phroon
I understand that both sides are somewhat wrong (but in different ways), but I don't really understand why Neige did what he did, even if all what I hear about Manticoreis true.

Neige did what he did because it was the most damaging thing possible to Manticores chances of getting a stone. As to Motive... no one knows that but Neige, although I think you'll see enough views here to come up with your own conclusions.

Lex

[Ruen]

I just don't understand all this spirituality business. Sounds darn confusing. Sounds like it might be a good idea to stay away from mystics because they are subtle, and ...uh... get upset quick. Not to mention it seems that some have gone insane. So, I guess I'd be a lot happier if the mystics out there would please not do ...umm... whatever it is that they do on my behalf, and I'll be sure to stay clear of them and get on with the vermine hunting.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Luminary


If the "Clicker Intelligence" changes, then the mystic is no longer the same mystic he was. It is almost as if the character visited Untrainus for his "Clicker Intelligence" ranks.

Luminary

Is anyone actually taking the position that PWC Hidden is less intelligent or a lesser roleplayer than PWC Noah?

[Steady Foot]

Is anyone actually taking the position that PWC Hidden is less intelligent or a lesser roleplayer than PWC Noah?

Not a far question unless we know who you are!!

[Luminary]

Originally posted by one of the faceless masses:
Is anyone actually taking the position that PWC Hidden is less intelligent or a lesser roleplayer than PWC Noah?

The point is not that any one PWC is 'better' or more intelligent, it is that they are different. Since they are different, the character, when transferred, is also different.

Luminary

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Ruen
I just don't understand all this spirituality business. Sounds darn confusing. Sounds like it might be a good idea to stay away from mystics because they are subtle, and ...uh... get upset quick. Not to mention it seems that some have gone insane. So, I guess I'd be a lot happier if the mystics out there would please not do ...umm... whatever it is that they do on my behalf, and I'll be sure to stay clear of them and get on with the vermine hunting.

Most mystics are pretty good people and can help you out by locating you when you fall, boosting your attack and balance abilities, opening illusions, and scanning ahead for danger.

Most mystics are emotionally stable but the mystic life does wear down on some thus turning them into people with very low self-esteem. Even me! Why? Well, let's take a party of three people; a healer, a fighter, and a mystic. They are walking along when all of a sudden, a Bolok Cougar leaps from behind a tree. Oh no! :eek: The fighter immediately starts thinking about how best to kill the Bolok. The healer starts getting behind the fighter and prepared to heal him if necessary. The mystic realizes that none of her mystic skills are necessary if the fighter can hit the Bolok (aside from a Ballou boost which may or may not be needed) and feels worthless because of this. Add a couple dozen instances of this during a day and it gradually drags even the highest self-esteem down to the ground and stomps it while laughing cruelly. That's why I'm studying with Skea so I have something useful to do while I run from the flock of Giant Vermine.

So please, even if you think all mystics suck, please give us a little compliment now and again and keep the "you suck" comments to a minimum. It'll make us feel a whole lot better.

P.S. I got my second Skea today!

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Ruen
I just don't understand all this spirituality business. Sounds darn confusing. Sounds like it might be a good idea to stay away from mystics because they are subtle, and ...uh... get upset quick. Not to mention it seems that some have gone insane. So, I guess I'd be a lot happier if the mystics out there would please not do ...umm... whatever it is that they do on my behalf, and I'll be sure to stay clear of them and get on with the vermine hunting.

Ruen,
Iff'n yer gonna stay away from a whole profession 'cuz ya might run into someone who's nuts or hot-headed, you'd best be steerin' clear of healers, fighters, bards, knights, bakers, gamblers, monks, paupers, brewers, tailors, kings an' those unprofessioned-types, too (Did I fergit anyone?). Folx is folx. Some is nuts, some isn't. Meet 'em all an' decide fer yerself. Paintin' groups with too broad a brush'll just lead ya t'lonliness.

Dande

[Luminary]

Originally posted by Hidden:
If that's how you view the other professions, then clearly you have not clicked a fighter or healer greater than 2nd circle. Ask Yor or Koric some time if a well trained monkey could do their jobs.

Oops. You are, of course, absolutely right. I should have clarified my statement to read something more along the lines of:

"Furthermore, the "Clicker Intelligence" is not as crucial as fighter or healer trained ranks, when it comes to passing the "Full Fighter" or "Full Healer" tests."

Granted a more "intelligent" fighter or healer will pass said tests sooner, but a lack of tactics can be compensated by training more ranks. People will even tell you which ranks to train if you are having trouble with a test.

Luminary

[Luminary]

Originally posted by Hidden:
There is no /saysomethingsmart command, fortunately.

...of course a High Priest of Mak'ros could certainly create such a prayer.

An evil High Priest of Mak'ros might even create a /saysomethingstupid prayer and mix the two. [;)]

Luminary

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Luminary


The point is not that any one PWC is 'better' or more intelligent, it is that they are different. Since they are different, the character, when transferred, is also different.

Luminary

are you exactly same person who clicks for luminary today as you clicked for luminary yesterday? how about this: does qualification of roleplaying full mystic have bearing if you (not just you but any pwc) were on a mind-altering substance or even had a stroke or amnesia? why that would be any different if the character, when transferred, becomes different?

reading between the lines in this thread... on the day pwc incorporated out of character conversation, does that take away full mystic roleplaying brownie points? in order to be a full mystic one would need to be a roleplaying nazi, assiduously avoiding ooc elements?

[Ruen]

Originally posted by Dandelion


Ruen,
Iff'n yer gonna stay away from a whole profession 'cuz ya might run into someone who's nuts or hot-headed, you'd best be steerin' clear of healers, fighters, bards, knights, bakers, gamblers, monks, paupers, brewers, tailors, kings an' those unprofessioned-types, too (Did I fergit anyone?). Folx is folx. Some is nuts, some isn't. Meet 'em all an' decide fer yerself. Paintin' groups with too broad a brush'll just lead ya t'lonliness.

Dande

I guess that's not really what I meant. I know there are nice mystics, and they aren't all alike just like not all healers are alike and not all fighters are alike. By stay away, I guess what I meant was to stay away from mystic politics, and mystic-type stuff in general. I met some nice mystics, like Anfyr. I also talked to Neige before all this happened, and he seemed nice, but then he went and did something that seems unreasonable, all because of some weird mystic guild politics, and it sounds like it ended up hurting a bunch of non-mystics

What it comes down to is I'm getting a really bad impression of the mystic council. They say they have to keep their secrets and everyone should just butt out. But then they want people to help them and not support the "wrong" mystics. They seem to want the other guilds to just trust them without any good reason that I can understand. Well, when stuff like this happens I'm afraid that's not good enough for me, and so I personally don't trust the mystic council based on what I've read here, especially what Luminary has been saying. I know they don't care, I'm just one first circle fighter, but until the mystic guild changes their ways, that's the way I'm going to feel about it. I'll still be friends with apprentices and journeymen, but because of the way I feel about their guild leadership I'd like them to not boost me and not locate me, or use any other mystic ability on me. I know it sounds silly, but its the best I can do to show my disapproval at the guild leadership, since I doubt refusing to help on their orga camp raids wont be an issue at all for several years.

[Callia]

I will offer some general comments regarding the Mystic's Guild:

This has all been stated elsewhere, but perhaps some of you have never heard it, and perhaps others of you have forgotten it. Most of this content should be considered to be OOC.

The Mystic's Guild is not for everyone, by design. It is unlike the Fighter and Healer professions, again, by design. For those of you who wish predictability, and certain advancement (eventually) the Healing and Fighting Guilds offer both of those things. The Mystic's Guild is meant for, and meant to appeal to a different type of person. I do not mean to offend when I say this, but that person is not you. This is not meant to hurt your feelings, but rather to spare you an experience which you will find maddeningly frustrating, disappointing, depressing, and in short, unenjoyable. Being a mystic sucks. That's not meant to be an arrogant statement, it's the truth. Delta Tao expects that most people will wish to be Fighters, that most people who do not wish to be Fighters, will wish to be Healers. Only a very small percentage are expected to enjoy the Mystic profession. The Mystic profession is one where failure is not only a possibility, but is even a likelihood. That's a large part of the point of the profession. There is no safety net, you, yes you, might fail. It is this possibility (likelihood) of failure that makes even the smallest victory (within the context of the profession) all the more sweet.

It is true that there are many people who are displeased with the specific nature of the operations of the Guild. People who feel personally betrayed, who demand that the Guild be changed. I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but the fact that you personally may feel that the way the Guild is run is flawed... Far from being the constructive criticism you might imagine it to be... is rather an indication that the Guild is working flawlessly, as according to its design. You (yes, you) aren't supposed to like it. It isn't designed for you. It wasn't designed to be something you'd enjoy. If you're one of those people who loudly insists that the Mystic's Guild should be more like that of the Healers or Fighters, that's because you aren't meant to be a mystic. You've just self-selected yourself out. 90 to 95% of the game was designed for you, go enjoy that. It is a consistent truth with the game as a whole, that not all aspects appeal to all people equally. The Mystic's Guild, is designed to appeal to very few. Everyone dislikes some aspects of the game. You (yes, you) need to come to terms with the fact that this (The Mystic's Guild) is one of the pieces that you don't like, and you need to get on with enjoying the rest of the game.

Now.. you are welcome to question the design concept, you are welcome to question the design iteration within Clan Lord. However, I suggest that neither I, nor any other FM would be the correct people to bring this point up to. If you don't like the design, I suggest you speak to Joe, AnnGM, or HGM. I also suggest that you be prepared for them to tell you pretty much exactly what I've said above, probably in less words. HGM is serious when he says "No, go away."

I wish you people could understand... you look at the Guild.. and you misunderstand it, and you think "Wow! That looks cool! I wanna do that!" and then you try it, and it's awful, and you hate it. You hate the drudgery, you hate the physical weakness, you hate the secrecy, you hate the not knowing, you hate the advancement system. You have a miserable time, and you think that if only it were a little (or a lot) different then you'd be able to enjoy it. I wish you could see... understand... those very parts that you hate so much *are* the fun part. They're the whole point of the Guild. Please... we don't want you to be miserable, we don't want you not to have fun in Clan Lord, so go away. This part of the game isn't for you, even if you think it looks cool.

Regards,
Callia

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Luminary

snipped
However, finding a promising candidate is not easy. 'Mistakes' cannot be corrected, and it takes time to really get to know a candidate (Weren't you a big supporter of Neige for FM a while back?).
snipped

Luminary

I wonder tho.
If Neige HAD been a full mystic at the time of the event, would the effects be as far reaching as they are presently? Would Manticore be holed-up in the library? Would it be viewed more as a mystic-vs-mystic power-struggle?

Would he in fact have done it if he had been a FM? If he was of strong character, IMHO he would have.

Would his actions be viewed as a "mistake" by his fellow FMs?
Was it only a "mistake" because he isn't a FM?

\ponder........hmmmmmmmmmm.............................bacon

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Luminary


Generalizing. While it is fairly easy to simulate an avatar's physical characteristics, and even some mental aspects in a role-playing game, the character's interactions with other characters, their vocabulary and manner of speech, and their perceived intelligence, are all limited by the player pulling the strings. While his stat sheet may say his avatar has an IQ of 200, Billy Bonehead, IQ 90, is going to have a hard time role-playing the avatar in a believable fashion.
Luminary

Sounds like you have a failure of imagination. There's nothing to stop Alberta Einstein roleplay her Plain Jane character to interact IC that Billy Bonehead's avatar does have character IQ of 200, despite believability of IC situation.

[mindra]

I have just finished reading all the posts thus far (whew!) and I find many to be very intruiging.

I would like to ramble some of my thoughts which have come.

The most perticular note I see is that many assume, on one issue or another, specifics about mystics. While these are interesting to read. I find it quite difficult to understand why so many consider these assumptions based on largly small events. What has been done indeed troubled many people, regardless views, but many other events have taken place before this occured. I would not make too many assumtions on what the full mystics have or have not done. Having perhaps learned of additional information than some on this forum, I can say Hidden does not reveal much about previous intensions nor discussions. That does trouble me.

I would think the more prudent course for most, as including myself, is to keep in mind a mystic travels their own path. Progression of this path while some might think is suitable for promotion, may or may not be the case. There are strong words of wisdom that are taught to all mystics along their path. It goes along the lines that when one is ready, the master will appear. I do not hold my judgement upon manticore in this way, as I am in no such position, but from what I have gathered, manticore has not been ready. Or rather, he has lost what he once had.

As I am sure many disagree with me, but perhaps that is why I have chosen the path I have.


Rambled musing,
- Min

[Ruen]

Callia, could you please clear up something about your post for me? I'm a little slow...

I think I got the part about people who don't like the way the mystic guild is run shouldn't join it, that's just good sense. What I'm not sure about is what you think us definite non-mystics should do about mystic stuff. It sounds like what you're saying is that we should just stay away, which is what I said I was going to do. Is that right? I kinda assumed that the mystics needed help from the other two guilds, but I guess I was just confused.

[Hidden]

I wish you Mystics could understand... you look at the Rest Of The World(tm).. and you misunderstand it, and you think "Hah! They think I look cool! They wanna do this!" and then you try telling them about it, except you can't because it's all secret, and they hate it. You hate the rank whoring, you hate the community, you hate the free flow of information, you hate the advancement system. You have a miserable time, and you think that if only it were a little (or a lot) different then you'd be able to enjoy it. I wish you could see... understand... those very parts that you hate so much *are* the fun part. They're the whole point of the Rest Of The World(tm). Please... we don't want you to be miserable, we don't want you not to have fun in Clan Lord, so go away. This part of the game isn't for you, even if you think it looks cool.

So throw away your taintless club, put your clothing items in the trash, get the hell out of town center, and stop bugging us. This part of the game wasn't designed for you.

Regards,
Hidden

(The patented Clue for the Clueless(tm) will come later, I want to see how many people take that at face value first)

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Anonymous Blockhead
Sounds like you have a failure of imagination. There's nothing to stop Alberta Einstein roleplay her Plain Jane character to interact IC that Billy Bonehead's avatar does have character IQ of 200, despite believability of IC situation.Giving credit where none is due is not a way to improve the situation. If Billy Bonehead doesn't play a believable character, then there's no way my characters are going to treat him as intelligent. This mentality of free and easy rewards suggests that you may be happier playing other games (http://www.progressquest.com/).

[Juan]

So, I'm supposed to believe that Manticore is the <i>first</i> transfered mystic character?

Or is he just the first transfered mystic character that the current status quo <i>doesn't like</i>?

DT needs to stand up and say "It's ok to transfer mystics, like all other characters" and end this rabble, or they owe Hidden his $10 back.

Character transfers and character sharing are going to happen. Nothing you can do about it. Sorry. Welcome to reality.

If some people's sense of self-worth wasn't so tightly wrapped around their perceived status in Clan Lord, maybe they could just let other people play the game and have fun, instead of trying to bully how people should and shouldn't play according to their own agendas.

Blame the mystic GM for propping up the entire mystic class on an unsustainable and unscalable arrangement. This whole problem is a direct result of those design choices, and was entirely foreseeable.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Ruen
I think I got the part about people who don't like the way the mystic guild is run shouldn't join it, that's just good sense. What I'm not sure about is what you think us definite non-mystics should do about mystic stuff. It sounds like what you're saying is that we should just stay away, which is what I said I was going to do. Is that right? I kinda assumed that the mystics needed help from the other two guilds, but I guess I was just confused. I am not sure what is your position Ruen. Maybe I can say this in another way and we can both better understand the other's view?

All three professions are important to Puddleby.

Would you agree to that?

I do not presume of your answer, but let's just say that many would answer that mystics aren't important, and many actually ignores them. Yet, many also appreciate what they can do for the community. Opinions vary, as do mystics. Some mystics do not involve themselves with the community, other do. Some locate, some don't. Same thing for other professions of course. Some fighters help newbies, others don't, etc.

One thing you won't find, is someone that says that fighters or healers are useless. You *will* find people that will say mystics are useless. That is one of the reason you'll see us getting defensive sometimes about this kind of subjects. Bear with us please.

No one expect every fighter to behave exactly as the others do. Everyone expect them to be good fighters, but no one expect them all to help newbies, for instance. Same argument goes for healers. And, eventhough there is an actual mystics' council (where there is none for fighters and healers), not all mystics behave the same way. Each and every mystic is different and has his or her own ideas and principles.

On this - the individuality of each exile - all three professions are the same. The mystics' council does NOT dictate the way mystics behave on a everyday basis, except for a limited number of things. These things are the following:

- what can be revealed about mystics' promotion system
- who is promoted

Aside from these two things, all mystics are allowed, just as any other exile, to do as he or she sees fit. As I said before, both of these things affect mystics, and mystics only. It can affect you, Ruen, if you are curious and want to know how it works, but there are many things that I do not know and I accept that. I hope you can accept that to really know, you should follow the mystic path.

So, as a member of Puddleby society, the only effect that the council has on you, Ruen, is that there are more or less mystics around. If you are one of those that think that mystics aren't useful, then you could not care less. If you think that mystics are useful, like Koric for instance, then this lack of mystics can concern you.

What Callia says is that this part of the mystics' life that is under the council's authority will not change, and is part of what makes a mystic.

So, you need to ask yourself what you are to do about it. Your reaction is to stop your interactions with mystics. I am not sure what you think to accomplish by that, since it will not influence the council. What it will do is that it will make the life of the mystics a little bit more difficult. It may also make yours a little more difficult too.

How each of us acts has an impact on the whole. If many people don't appreciate rescue healers (don't share, don't tip, don't even thank them) then there will be less rescue healers around. Same thing may happen with mystics. Now, remember that the impact that the council has on you, Ruen, is the number of mystics around. You also influence that number. If your reaction to your displeasure at the council is to stop helping mystics, the only thing you'll accomplish is to reduce even more the number of mystics in the lands.

Of course mystics need fighters and healers. Much more so than any other profession. Those that think that they can influence the council by penalizing individual mystics are in error though.

Why would anyone want to help a mystic after all of this? I would hope to think that it's because that help is required. If that's not good enough a reason, then I guess only those that need a mystic for a specific thing will help them.

Society is like that. It is made of individuals. The "quality" of a society depends on the "quality" of each of its constituting individual.

[Brune]

Callia said:

A bunch of things that won't fit here ;-)


Thanks Callia for the clarification and timely presentation.

There are reasons why I never ever wanted to start a mysfit character, and why I enjoy being a healer. I don't know what mystics do, nor why they do what they do (really, not a clue).

There are reasons why I don't want to have anything to do with managing mysfits, telling them what's right, and complaining about the unfairness in the guild. I am, afterall, a healer. Clueless.

There are reasons why I really enjoy hanging out with some mysfits, but not others. It has little to do with how "cool" they are.

There are reasons why I applaude Neige for such a brash and desperate act to prevent an orga stone from falling into the hands of a deranged and maybe rogue mystic; while at the same time I can understand the outrage felt because a single exile is able to exploit the legal system, ruining hours of committment and effort on the part of so many other exiles.

All in all, I think some pretty cool stuff is happening [:)]

I know a number of mystics who are very unhappy with the guild. I am sympathetic to their distress, but I am Oh-so-glad that I am just a healer, and not one of those "cool" mystics.

Brune

[Karkras]

Originally posted by Callia
...The Mystic's Guild is not for everyone, by design. (supporting documents snipped)
I'd like to pipe up and corroborate your comments, Callia (insofar as they relate to my own experience). My experience has convinced me that Mystichood is not for me. I gave it a good college try, but after a few months, the character had a fortunate run-in with a delete button.

I didn't mind the secrecy though, that was pretty cool. It made the experience seem more real, and it made discoveries that much more valuable.

I didn't mind the weakness in combat either; that was pretty ok-- maybe I'm weird that way, but I found it fun when I knew that the characters that I adventured with felt good about their skill in protecting me or keeping me on my feet. And, it made the successes that much more gratifying.

I say with resounding conviction that the mystic profession is not for me. However, having explored that path to the exclusion of others for a time, I have a soft spot for the questing mystic. One is always welcome to join me on my adventures, and I always enjoy being buddygurd on a mystic quest (no questions asked). But that was true even before my own search.

I believe that without mystics (or the mystic-minded; guild status aside), that our society would lose cohesion and disintegrate. That's why I support mystic questers.

I will refrain now from furthering my tangent. Instead, I tie my comments into this thread's topic by saying aloud the question that I re-ask myself as I follow this lively discussion: "In what ways do the actions of both Manticore and Neige contribute to or act against my above-stated belief that mystics are the glue that holds our society together?"

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Drablak
I am not sure what is your position Ruen. Maybe I can say this in another way and we can both better understand the other's view?

All three professions are important to Puddleby.

Would you agree to that?


Yes.

Originally posted by Drablak

So, as a member of Puddleby society, the only effect that the council has on you, Ruen, is that there are more or less mystics around. If you are one of those that think that mystics aren't useful, then you could not care less. If you think that mystics are useful, like Koric for instance, then this lack of mystics can concern you.


It does concern me. And more than that, I'm not convinced that the number of mystics is the only way the council can effect me. They sure do act like they're hiding something, and that makes me suspicious. But on the number of mystic in the lands, I was thinking about it, and I've been in exile since early summer of 546 and I don't think I've ever seen a full mystic in person.

There are three guilds, and I thought that the mystics needed the fighters and the healers. Callia's remarks sounded like maybe that wasn't how she saw things, but she phrased a lot of things in a confusing way. Fighters and healers need mystics for some of the stuff they want to do too, like hunt on Noth and whatever else those high circle folks do while I'm killing vermine. Now, there are plenty of powerful fighters and healers in the land, but from what I've seen the mystic guild isn't holding up their end of things.

Originally posted by Drablak

So, you need to ask yourself what you are to do about it. Your reaction is to stop your interactions with mystics. I am not sure what you think to accomplish by that, since it will not influence the council. What it will do is that it will make the life of the mystics a little bit more difficult. It may also make yours a little more difficult too.


Well, first off I didn't say I'd stop talking to them. I'll certainly call for help too if I ran across a fallen apprentice of journeyman. What I won't do is help them do mystic stuff. As a matter of principle I also won't accept mystical assistance, and I know that's going to make my life more difficult, though come to thing of it I don't think I've been mystically located more than once so far, and the only time I've been boosted was while I was sitting in town center.

Originally posted by Drablak
...Now, remember that the impact that the council has on you, Ruen, is the number of mystics around. You also influence that number. If your reaction to your displeasure at the council is to stop helping mystics, the only thing you'll accomplish is to reduce even more the number of mystics in the lands.

Of course mystics need fighters and healers. Much more so than any other profession. Those that think that they can influence the council by penalizing individual mystics are in error though.


Well, this is where I am not convinced. Sure, if once I get good enough to be of some help I refuse to help mystics do mystic stuff, this may make there be slightly fewer mystics in the land, at least initially. I do think that penalizing the individual mystics will at least send a message to the council, which is my whole point. Its the only way I can say "I don't like what you're doing!" with any force. Not very much force, but at least I'll know I'm doing all I can to send the message. Maybe the people on the council need apprentices and journeymen, and maybe it'll inconveiniece the council memebers if there are slightly fewer new apprentices to boss around, or whatever small effect I might manage to have. Probably it won't change anything, but given what the full mystics have been saying, I am more and more convinced that I should make the gesture. I know its not fair to the journeymen and apprentices, many of whom I know are nice people, but its the only thing I can do. Besides, if the AMs and JMs wanted fairness they would have becomre fighters or healers instead.

[Ruen]

Oops, the previous post was from me, but the scroll seems to have lost my name

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Unregistered
I know its not fair to the journeymen and apprentices, many of whom I know are nice people, but its the only thing I can do. Besides, if the AMs and JMs wanted fairness they would have becomre fighters or healers instead. That's quite true.

[Luminary]

Originally posted by Anonymous Coward:
are you exactly same person who clicks for luminary today as you clicked for luminary yesterday? how about this: does qualification of roleplaying full mystic have bearing if you (not just you but any pwc) were on a mind-altering substance or even had a stroke or amnesia? why that would be any different if the character, when transferred, becomes different?

Obviously, my manifestation through my avatar will vary from day to day, and will change over time. These changes are to be expected and, in fact, add to the depth of the character.

Short term changes, such as playing while under the influence, will affect the way the character is perceived by others. For a Dwarf character, playing under the influence might be appropriate, for a Mystic character, it's probably not. A single such occurance might not have a serious effect, however if it becomes a habit, then the character's "Intelligence"* changes, right?

If something were to happen to affect the player, ooc, that affected the way the character is perceived, ic, then, again, the character's "Intelligence" changes.

How the changes in "Intelligence" affect the character, relies more on the way that the other characters react to the changes. How they choose to role-play their character's reaction to the change. So, Luminary is now a boozer. She may not be fit to hold the title of Full Mystic, but the Dwarven Militia has nominated her to chair their social committee.

Luminary

*-Just to clarify, I have been using "Intelligence" as you would in "Artificial Intelligence", to refer more to the reactions, mannerisms and behaviors of a character, as opposed to intelligence, as in problem solving ability, IQ or other measures.

[Luminary]

Originally posted by Juan:
So, I'm supposed to believe that Manticore is the first transfered mystic character?

Yup. First, and only FM to undergo such a radical change as to be a different person than when he was promoted.

Luminary

[Juan]

The status of a mystic is directly related to the general scarcity of mystics. In essence, the mystic promotion system is a cartel, which functions like a country club. If the boys in club like you, you can get in, otherwise, you are out of luck. But remember, the lads in the club know that the more exclusive the club, the better off they are.

It's a really, really bad design, which brings out the worst in people.

Would the game really suffer if there were more mystics around, or would the egos of the current mystics take the hit?

All this IC crap justifying how the council works is a smokescreen. It's about status. And right now, harassing people who are trying to play just to puff up some exclusive club is exactly what CL does NOT need.

Frankly, it's pretty sad that there's no statement from DT on this. Shows how much they care for us. "Go ahead, duke it out, alienate each other, and play less. Just keep paying your monthly fee."

[Mjollnir]

This is just my 2c
This discussion seems to have moved away from the issue that it was started about so ill adress that first.

Manticore Vs Neige

I was on that FMOCR raid and yes ill admit i was originally angry about having my time wasted.
What rankled more was the fact that we were close to completing a quest or a puzzle or whatever you want to call it and that opportunity was denied us, we wernt given the chance to see if we could complete it because of the actions of Neige and whoever supported him in his actions.

Surprisingly enough I dont blame Neige for his actions he did what he belived was the right thing to do in the view of that body of exiles known as Mystics and he stood up for those belifs which is laudable and Ill appologise right now for the bad karma i gave him when he caused our hunt to fail.
His actions were not however in the best view of the rest of puddleby and the other exiles therein.

Mystics in General

There has been alot of talk about how keeping Manticore from getting a stone was in the best interests of those with similar skills because it would take shares, exp and opportunites away from those who had trained hard to get the skills they possesed.
lets consider some future posiblilities;

a) Robin Greyhawk and/or Zorton gets tired of life or falls ill and retires to the library.
Does this mean that the rest of the exile population should suffer because they can no longer explore places like the foothills until another Full Mystic comes along with enough skill to use the stone?

Surely its better to have as many people with the skills necessary to make a sucessful hunt rather than a privilaged few who are holding a monopoly on certain places.

b) Another up and coming young mystic expresses an interest in learning how to use the Orga Stones.
Is this mystic going to be kept at Apprentice or Journeyman level simply because he would take business away from other mystics?

Which brings me to my third point

The Mystic Council

The Mystic Council currently has a strangle hold on mystics and some of the rest of puddlby.
They hold a monopoly on who can train which skills by limiting or aiding the advancement of potential mystics.
This may or may not be the way things are but this is the way they appear, Mystics have themselves in a deathgrip and are slowly killing themselves with few promotions, active discoragement and an unwillingness to forgive.

Has a FM who has been demoted through some action ever been repromoted?
They have shown that they were worth of that title but because they made a mistake eg untraining they are not to be forgiven and promoted? Is the only mystic worthy of promotion a perfect person who never makes mistakes?
Is that the reason so few people are ever promoted? If so that seems like a bad attitude.
Im not going to try and draw analogies between mystics, healers and fighters because the mistakes of fighters and healers dont seem to be as far reaching as those made by mystics.
If a fighter makes a mistake in his training then he can train to compensate it, if they make a mistake about how powerful they are then the worst that can happen is they get themselves killed and need to be rescued.
What sort of mystics make that are unforgivable in the eyes of the council anyway? is it possible to be given an example so we know what were talking about?

To finish off ill go back to an earlier point.

Whats best in the eyes of the mystics and the mystic council is not necessarily whats best for the rest of the population of puddleby.
The people of puddleby would like to see more promoted mystics with skills such as illusion opening, teleporting, locating and far seeing.
The mystic council wants to see as few promoted as they deem necessary inorder to keep the full mystics they have employed.
These two purposes to me seem to be at odds with each other and dont seem to be reconsilable without a shake up of the mystic guild as a whole and what people expect from a mystic (see its not all the mystics fault).

To step OOC for a minute ill say this.
The Mystic Council is run by real people and real people CAN BE (please note the disclaimer) Petty, Selfish, Spiteful, Greedy and plain pig headed.
If a full mystic took a disliking to a journeyman or apprentice it would be possible for them to halt their progress before they made any.
A full mystic has the ability to stop another mystic from muscling in on their turf.
If Mystic X is a full mystic who specialises in Illusion Opening and Teleportation, and Mystic Y is a journeyman who has trained very little of boosting and locating in order to train to open illusions and teleport people. And Mystics X and Y both clan similar hours at similar times.
Mystic X has the means to block Mystic Y from becoming a full mystic inorder to protect his earnings.
Im not saying all mystics or all people who play them are Petty, Selfish, Spiteful, Greedy and plain pig headed, they can also be Helpful, Selfless, Noble and Reasonable but its the worst side of people that tends to stick in peoples minds and as such colours peoples views.

If we set aside the question of skills for a minute and ask the question;

What does make a good Mystic?

:confused:
answers on a postcard to this newsgroup please.

And yes i realise this is more like my $2 than 2c

(Disclaimer-This Message is enitrely a POV and as such is not directed at anybody inparticular all references to real people is enitrely coincidental and if you think ive been describing you thats a matter for your own paranoid mind)

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Luminary


Yup. First, and only FM to undergo such a radical change as to be a different person than when he was promoted.

Luminary

Someone fill me in on Nyssa, then? I thought she was transferred...is she no longer a FM?

[Noah]

Originally posted by Unregistered


Someone fill me in on Nyssa, then? I thought she was transferred...is she no longer a FM?

Nyssa untrained a little bit after being promoted and lost Full Mystic status (similarly to how Fighters and Healers can lose their circle if they untrain). I believe PWC for Nyssa quit Clan Lord awhile ago.

[Unregistered]

<i>Ruen wrote:</i>
<blockquote><b>[There are three guilds, and I thought that the mystics needed the fighters and the healers. Callia's remarks sounded like maybe that wasn't how she saw things, but she phrased a lot of things in a confusing way. Fighters and healers need mystics for some of the stuff they want to do too, like hunt on Noth and whatever else those high circle folks do while I'm killing vermine. Now, there are plenty of powerful fighters and healers in the land, but from what I've seen the mystic guild isn't holding up their end of things.] </b></blockquote>

Ruen.... my post was intended as an explanation for those who've tried to be mystics, and have failed. I was trying to give them some understanding of why. None of what I said was supposed to be about interacting <b>with</b> mystics. Rather it was a message for those who were thinking about whether they wished to <b>be</b> mystics or not.

Mystics of all levels need the help of Healers and Fighters. I'm sorry if you got the impression I was saying that we didn't, that wasn't my intention. If you personally want the Guild to be run differently, then my advice to you would be to meet some members of the Guild. Help the Apprentices and the Journeying Mystics you meet. The best chance you have of changing the Guild to be more to your liking, is to have friends within the Guild, who either share, or are at least sympathetic to your point of view. Cutting off all contact with the members of the Guild who do need your help, will only contribute to the slowing down of the rate of change.

This is of course my opinion, do as you see fit, I would be more than happy to discuss this with you should we meet in the lands. Mine is not to choose, mine is but to instruct, that you may choose wisely for yourself.

Regards,
Callia

[Callia]

Hm.. this posting system has a really irritating tendency to automatically log me out.

<blockquote><i>Mjollnir wrote:</i><br><b>[There has been alot of talk about how keeping Manticore from getting a stone was in the best interests of those with similar skills because it would take shares, exp and opportunites away from those who had trained hard to get the skills they possesed. lets consider some future posiblilities;]</b></blockquote>

OOC: This again is intended to speak to the design issues behind the Mystic's Guild. It is a design element of the Guild, that Mystics (what you tend to refer to as Full Mystics) should be rare. It is a design element, that their powers are not additive per se. Healers for example, are designed to be additive (at least to an extent). Inherent in the design of Mystics is that their abilities are not additive, but exclusionary, if you have one Mystic, you are less likely to need a second. This is part of the design of the class, I suggest you review the records of C.S.M.G.A, and look for posts on the subject by Joe and by HGM, probably from the period about 3 to 3 and a half (OOC) years ago. I'm sorry that I can't point you to the specific references... but when the class was being introduced, Joe clearly indicated, that sharing power, would weaken individuals. That there would be competition within the class for the limited resources available.

As designed, the class has several built in elements which are intended to limit the number of Mystics who will exist at any one time. This is one such element. It's not an accident, it's supposed to be this way. That's what DT intended.

<blockquote><i>Mjollnir wrote:</i><br><b>[Has a FM who has been demoted through some action ever been repromoted? They have shown that they were worth of that title but because they made a mistake eg untraining they are not to be forgiven and promoted? Is the only mystic worthy of promotion a perfect person who never makes mistakes?]</b></blockquote>

The only Mystic who was ever demoted was Nyssa. Nyssa chose an unsanctioned training method, and Master Merk stripped her title from her. (OOC: She used untrainus, and lost her title automatically, just as Healers and Fighters sometimes do when they untrain) Nyssa at first denied she had lost her status, despite the fact that it was obvious, and later insisted that she had a right to be reinstated, rather than working towards reinstatement. If a Fighter or a Healer loses status, there is only one way to regain it: They must take the test in question again, and pass it again. In essence, what Nyssa chose to do was to argue that the mystic equivalent of the test shouldn't be required in her case, rather than take it again, as she should have. Had she chosen to take it again, likely she would have passed quickly and easily.

As for perfection, no, no Mystic or student is expected to be perfect. Perfection is not a criteria for advancement. However, willingness and ability to learn from one's own mistakes are.

<blockquote><i>Mjollnir wrote:</i><br><b>[Whats best in the eyes of the mystics and the mystic council is not necessarily whats best for the rest of the population of puddleby.]</b></blockquote>

Essentially correct. What would you do if you were given charge of your Guild? Would you serve the needs of Puddleby? Or the needs of the Healer's Guild? Presumably, you would try to do both, to the greatest extent that was possible. But what if there were elements of this governance which were mutually exclusive, where serving the needs of one, meant damaging the needs of the other? Which would you choose then?

<blockquote><i>Mjollnir wrote:</i><br><b>[The people of puddleby would like to see more promoted mystics with skills such as illusion opening, teleporting, locating and far seeing. The mystic council wants to see as few promoted as they deem necessary inorder to keep the full mystics they have employed.]</b></blockquote>

This point has already been addressed by both Lundar and Luminary, elsewhere in the thread, but I will reiterate here. Students advance when they are ready. No student who is ready is held back. There is no freeze on advancements, although if you examine this thread in detail, you might gain some insite into why the pace is so slow. The bar to advancement is high, and some intelligent guesses have been made here as to why would be so.

If you want there to be more Mystics (FM's) then there are things that you personally can do to help that come about. Befriend the Apprentices you see. Help them do their assigned tasks, respect their need for secrecy. Help them find friends and goals in Puddleby. Keep them from fading away into the library, never to return. The thing that will change the Guild, is new people. Cutting off relations, working to avoid or work around areas of mystic specialty, will only hurt the Guild, and cause stagnation. Precisely the thing you (and others) have said you don't want.

<blockquote><i>Mjollnir wrote:</i><br><b>[The Mystic Council is run by real people and real people CAN BE (please note the disclaimer) Petty, Selfish, Spiteful, Greedy and plain pig headed. If a full mystic took a disliking to a journeyman or apprentice it would be possible for them to halt their progress before they made any.]</b></blockquote>

Yes, pretty much.... See my other post on the nature of the Guild. The things that you describe are possibilities within the Mystic's Guild, exciting isn't it? Here is the one place in our world where you might fail, where the real possibility of permanent failure can add spice to your existence and efforts at character development... What's that? It doesn't sound like fun to you? Then don't be a mystic. Really, I mean it.

<blockquote><i>Mjollnir wrote:</i><br><b>[What does make a good Mystic?]</b></blockquote>

Yes.. that is the question, isn't it? Let me know when you figure it out....

Regards,
Callia

[Luminary]

Originally posted by Mjollnir
The mystic council wants to see as few promoted as they deem necessary inorder to keep the full mystics they have employed...

(some snippage)

A full mystic has the ability to stop another mystic from muscling in on their turf.
If Mystic X is a full mystic who specialises in Illusion Opening and Teleportation, and Mystic Y is a journeyman who has trained very little of boosting and locating in order to train to open illusions and teleport people. And Mystics X and Y both clan similar hours at similar times.
Mystic X has the means to block Mystic Y from becoming a full mystic inorder to protect his earnings.

Mjollnir, can you clarify whether you are making the above statements as fact, speculation or as conclusions?

If they are conclusions, can you give us a bit more insight into your thinking process?

And for everyone's future reference, not all Full Mystics are members of the "Mystic Council", and not all Mystic Council members are Full Mystics. If you wish to refer to all the Full Mystics, please do so. If you wish to refer to the governing body of the Mystic Guild, feel free to refer to the Mystic Council. It helps keep things straight in my mind, at least.

Luminary

[Hidden]

Callia, I have a hypothetical question for you. Say you were to start a new mystic character, with all the "knowledge and wisdom" gained from playing Callia. Would you be able to, through normal and legitimate means, get this character promoted to full mystic rank in under a year, or are there artificial time limits imposed on how long it takes a mystic to advance?

[Callia]

<blockquote><i>Hidden wrote:</i><br><b>Callia, I have a hypothetical question for you. Say you were to start a new mystic character, with all the "knowledge and wisdom" gained from playing Callia. Would you be able to, through normal and legitimate means, get this character promoted to full mystic rank in under a year, or are there artificial time limits imposed on how long it takes a mystic to advance?</b></blockquote>

Well.. that's really two questions. There are limitations built into the system which make the rate of progression slow, but they don't necessarily single out any particular character if that's what you mean.

Is it technically possible to go from unknown exile, to "full" Mystic in one OOC year? Yes, technically. Could I do it? I doubt it. I'd guess.. that even with all my "wisdom and knowledge" that it would take me .... 1 and a half to two OOC years to become a FM if I started over from scratch. I think I could do it again... but it would still be hard work, even for me. And mind you.. the time line assumes that I'd made this new "from scratch" character my primary character too.

I'd probably change the email address I used too, best to start clean.

Regards,
Callia

[Ruen]

Callia says:
...If you personally want the Guild to be run differently, then my advice to you would be to meet some members of the Guild. Help the Apprentices and the Journeying Mystics you meet. The best chance you have of changing the Guild to be more to your liking, is to have friends within the Guild, who either share, or are at least sympathetic to your point of view. Cutting off all contact with the members of the Guild who do need your help, will only contribute to the slowing down of the rate of change.

This is of course my opinion, do as you see fit, I would be more than happy to discuss this with you should we meet in the lands. Mine is not to choose, mine is but to instruct, that you may choose wisely for yourself.

Well, uh, I thought I'd mentioned that I'd never actually seen a Full Mystic in the flesh. I did notice that Lundar seemed to be out and about the last time I was out of the library, but I didn't manage to catch him. I don't think I've ever been out of the library at the same time as you Callia, but if it ever happens I'd be happy to talk to you. I have talked to some non-full mystics in the lands, and some of them think that I'm doing the right thing, but I won't say who 'cause I don't want to get them in trouble.

I was a little disturbed by something you said to Mjollnir. Admittedly, I can't understand some portions of what you wrote, but you seemed to admit that the needs of the mystic's council and the needs of Puddleby are not the same thing, and may in fact be in conflict. I find this admission a bit distressing.

You asked Mjollnir what he would do if he were in charge of his guild and he had to decide between what was best for healers and what was best for Puddleby. Well, honestly, I don't think that such a thing could ever happen. Healers are so very necessary to all of us that whatever is good for healers kinda has to be what is good for Puddleby. As for my own guild, well, most of the people in Puddleby are fighters, so I guess I just can't see how there could possibly be a conflict between the the fighters guild and the community as a whole. Besides, even if did happen with either guild, neither one practices secrecy so everyone would know about it pretty quickly, and then the others could do stuff about it.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Ruen
You asked Mjollnir what he would do if he were in charge of his guild and he had to decide between what was best for healers and what was best for Puddleby. Well, honestly, I don't think that such a thing could ever happen. Healers are so very necessary to all of us that whatever is good for healers kinda has to be what is good for Puddleby.It's a question of responsibility. If Mjollnir accepted to be in charge of the Healers' Guild, he would accept the responsibilities that go with the position. If he accepted to be in charge of Puddleby's Council, his responsibilities would be different too.
Let's say that the people of Puddleby decided that it's in the best interest of everyone to be able to use a moonstone to self-heal or heal others. As head of the Healer's council for instance, l think it would be his responsibility to oppose that view, because his role would be to protect the Healer profession.
You, as head of the Fighter's guild, would try to prevent non-fighters to be able to train Detha, eventhough it may be perceived by non-fighters as being a good thing for Puddleby. If you answer that you would not oppose that, then you are just saying that you would not be fit to be on the fighter's council.
Everyone, as an individual, is responsible for what society we live in, but organisations such as a profesionnal's council are put in place to see after an aspect of that society. It's not to say that such organisations are there to oppose the rest of society, but the responsibilities are there nonetheless.

[Kiriel]

Originally posted by Callia
Hm.. this posting system has a really irritating tendency to automatically log me out.

The only Mystic who was ever demoted was Nyssa. Nyssa chose an unsanctioned training method, and Master Merk stripped her title from her. (OOC: She used untrainus, and lost her title automatically, just as Healers and Fighters sometimes do when they untrain) Nyssa at first denied she had lost her status, despite the fact that it was obvious, and later insisted that she had a right to be reinstated, rather than working towards reinstatement. If a Fighter or a Healer loses status, there is only one way to regain it: They must take the test in question again, and pass it again. In essence, what Nyssa chose to do was to argue that the mystic equivalent of the test shouldn't be required in her case, rather than take it again, as she should have. Had she chosen to take it again, likely she would have passed quickly and easily.

Callia, you may want to check your options under the user control panel. You can set it to not log you out automatically (I thought that was default but perhaps it's not). If you're still getting logged out perhaps your browser is only allowing the cookie to exist for a session.

What you say about Nyssa is interesting to me, because if the case is that what makes a mystic is their learning and personality that PWC has and not their training, it would seem to me that the regaining of Nyssa's status would not require a test. Comparing it to fighter or healer tests is a bit strange in a discussion where the mystics have emphasized time and time again that the mystic guild is different and does not follow the same promotional techniques as the other guilds.

I realize that Nyssa is no longer who she used to be, but I'm not sure whether this happened before or after the event you describe (I'm assuming after). Can you clarify?

[Brune]

Ruen paraphrased Callia

you seemed to admit that the needs of the mystic's council and the needs of Puddleby are not the same thing, and may in fact be in conflict

That's not quite what she said.

Callia said:
if you were given charge of your Guild? Would you serve the needs of Puddleby? Or the needs of the Healer's Guild? Presumably, you would try to do both, to the greatest extent that was possible. But what if there were elements of this governance which were mutually exclusive, where serving the needs of one, meant damaging the needs of the other? Which would you choose then?

The reality of mutually exclusive interests lying between groups in a community simply means you can't do what's best for everyone all the time.

(I say we keep a close eye on the mystics and club em when they get out of line ;-))

Brune

[Ruen]

Originally posted by Drablak
...Everyone, as an individual, is responsible for what society we live in, but organisations such as a profesionnal's council are put in place to see after an aspect of that society. It's not to say that such organisations are there to oppose the rest of society, but the responsibilities are there nonetheless.

Well, I agree that all individuals are responsible for the society that we live in. That's related to my main point. There is no such thing as a fighters council or a healers council, and by and large that seems to lead to more individual responsibility. Even if there were councils, the rest of the folks in Puddleby would know what they were up to. Sure there are bad healers and bad fighters, but I think its clear to everyone that these individuals are acting on their own. Between the way the mystic council works and its secrecy, its kind of hard to tell if a mystic does something whether the person is acting on their own or on the orders of the council. Then the responsibility for those actions is spread out over the council and the indivual can try to duck out of taking personal responsibility.

As for your examples, well you know that these things are out of the control of us exiles, though I admit I don't know why. I'd love to train with Detha too, but at least I know that for that to happen I'm gonna have to be able to kill two large vermine and two ferals in the testing room. And do you honestly think it would be good for everyone to be able to use a moonstone? Sounds like a really dumb idea to me. If that happened almost no one would put any signifigant training into healer skills and we'd eventually wind up in big trouble.

[Ruen]

Originally posted by Brune
That's not quite what she said.

Callia said:


The reality of mutually exclusive interests lying between groups in a community simply means you can't do what's best for everyone all the time.

(I say we keep a close eye on the mystics and club em when they get out of line ;-))

Brune

Oh, yeah, you are right Brune. I guess I'm a little paranoid about this. The last time someone wanted me to trust them but said they couldn't tell me why bad things happened. I guess its making me expect the worst of the mystic's council.

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Callia
Is it technically possible to go from unknown exile, to "full" Mystic in one OOC year? Yes, technically.Yes, I know that. I could create a character and "technically" be promoted to "Full" Mystic within a week, I'd say. That wasn't the question.
Could I do it? I doubt it. I'd guess.. that even with all my "wisdom and knowledge" that it would take me .... 1 and a half to two OOC years to become a FM if I started over from scratch. I think I could do it again... but it would still be hard work, even for me. And mind you.. the time line assumes that I'd made this new "from scratch" character my primary character too.So you admit that the path is not entirely dependant on knowledge and readiness? I'll even give you one more advantage: You are a superhuman and can spend 24/7 clanning and have been in the library for the past year, giving you 500 ranks to start out with.

[Mjollnir]

Originally posted by Drablak

Let's say that the people of Puddleby decided that it's in the best interest of everyone to be able to use a moonstone to self-heal or heal others. As head of the Healer's council for instance, l think it would be his responsibility to oppose that view, because his role would be to protect the Healer profession. [/B]

I wouldnt oppose this, if a fighter or a mystic wanted to use a moonstone to heal themselves they could.
That there arnt all that many places where a fighter could heal up and return to the fight many of them do this already its a skill called Troilus perhaps you've heard of it[:p]
And it doesnt change the fact that fighters need healers in hunts, its very hard to hold an axe and a moonstone at the same time.
All i can see is that you wouldnt get the wounded trooping into town for a heal, that might even persuade those lazy town healers to get up off their butts and do something useful.
Healers would still raise the dead and rod lightning and help heal the wounded

Any fighter who finds himself wanting to heal other people should see about becoming a healer instead as he/she is in the wrong profession

[Anonymous Coward]

Originally posted by Hidden
Giving credit where none is due is not a way to improve the situation. If Billy Bonehead doesn't play a believable character, then there's no way my characters are going to treat him as intelligent. This mentality of free and easy rewards suggests that you may be happier playing other games (http://www.progressquest.com/).

That's ok if your characters are going to treat Billy Bonehead's character as intelligent. Of course, Alberta Einstein's character may treat Billy's character in any way as she wants. Too bad if she does not improve the situation the way as you (yes, all of you) see. This kind of scenario is going to happen and continue to happen in the game like Clan Lord due to its open nature. There always be OOC happenstances, minmaxing, snertism, and the whole wonderful world of shibboleths.

Nothing here suggests free and easy rewards. One do not need to subscribe to your or anyone else's orthodoxy and one can be just as happy playing Clan Lord in many different ways. "No, go away" is not going to stop one's enjoyment of the game nor will it stop one from trying to effect changes to underlying mechanism and/or influence clickers/designers. As long one feels that Delta Tao is open to suggestion to "improve the game", one may suggest a variety of way that is contrary to the designer as well as to the particular sets of clickers. In the game like Clan Lord, there always be people who will, intentionally or not, stymie the intentions and spirit of the game/designer.

It's up to the clickers to decide whether the game's for them even with its perceived limitations, flaw, and disadvantage. Maybe the real question is, is this game for you? Only you can answer that. If you alllow others to suggest the answer this question for you, tsk tsk...

Anonymous Coward

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Ruen
Sure there are bad healers and bad fighters, but I think its clear to everyone that these individuals are acting on their own. Between the way the mystic council works and its secrecy, its kind of hard to tell if a mystic does something whether the person is acting on their own or on the orders of the council.I guess I am wasting my time here, since you don't seem to read what I write, or at least not beleive it. In any case, beleive what you will, if you need an enemy, or an excuse to behave a certain way, be my guest.
Originally posted by Drablak
On this - the individuality of each exile - all three professions are the same. The mystics' council does NOT dictate the way mystics behave on a everyday basis, except for a limited number of things. These things are the following:

- what can be revealed about mystics' promotion system
- who is promoted

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Mjollnir
I wouldnt oppose this, if a fighter or a mystic wanted to use a moonstone to heal themselves they could.
That there arnt all that many places where a fighter could heal up and return to the fight many of them do this already its a skill called Troilus perhaps you've heard of it[:p] Yes I heard of him, and I also heard many healer complain about troilus-fighters. And, since you probably did not train with him, let me tell you that he can't teach you to raise fallen, hence the calls from fighters in south forest for healers...
If you think that if any exile could use a moonstone it would not affect healers as a profession, then I guess we are of a different opinion.
My argument still stands that what may be good for Puddleby, and what may be good for a profession, is not necessarily the same. I am trying to find examples to illustrate my point. From your answer I understand that you have the same perception as Ruen, that is that there could be no conflict between what would be good for healers, and what could be good for the rest of Puddleby. Is that the case?

[Lundar]

Hidden wrote:

<I>"Callia, I have a hypothetical question for you. Say you were to start a new mystic character, with all the "knowledge and wisdom" gained from playing Callia. Would you be able to, through normal and legitimate means, get this character promoted to full mystic rank in under a year, or are there artificial time limits imposed on how long it takes a mystic to advance?"</I>

You are talking about OOC years, yes? From my records, there are two Mystics who reached their station in little over a year.

-Lundar<P>

[Lundar]

Kiriel wrote:

<I>"What you say about Nyssa is interesting to me, because if the case is that what makes a mystic is their learning and personality that PWC has and not their training, it would seem to me that the regaining of Nyssa's status would not require a test. Comparing it to fighter or healer tests is a bit strange in a discussion where the mystics have emphasized time and time again that the mystic guild is different and does not follow the same promotional techniques as the other guilds.

I realize that Nyssa is no longer who she used to be, but I'm not sure whether this happened before or after the event you describe (I'm assuming after). Can you clarify?"</I>

I was not a Mystic at the time(and neither was Callia), so I'm not sure exactly what went on, but this is my understanding: Nyssa was originally promoted with the approval of the Council and the support of 3 full Mystics. However, during her short tenure as a Mystic, she managed to turn the entire Council against her, and even the 3 Mystics who had supported her in the first place.

Thus, when Nyssa lost her title due to her mishap, no one was very eager to return her title. Instead of trying to reconcile her differences, Nyssa demanded that she be reinstated as a Mystic. She stubbornly refused any compromises, and took her argument to many public forums, revealing what many felt to be mystic secrets in the process, further proving to the Council that she was not worthy of the title.

In the end, her own stubborness and inability to compromise proved to be her undoing.

-Lundar<P>

[Callia]

Ruen... Brune has already answered this for you, but I will respond anyway. The question I posed to Mjollnir was a hypothetical one. The premise of the question stated that the you were to assume that conditions might exist where the needs of Puddleby and the needs of the Healer's Guild might conflict. You were then to consider what you might do, were you a healer who had been given responsibility for the Guild.

Whether or not you personally can think of any such situations isn't what I'm asking. The nature of the question is that for the purposes of your answer you should assume that such a situation does exist. Regardless of whether you can imagine what the specifics might be.

The question is intended as a mental exercise in picking between two bad choices, a lose-lose scenario.

I would still be happy to discuss the Guild with you, and do my best to allay any of your fears that I can. However, if you are intent on mistrusting me, there is little I can do. The choice is yours.

Regards,
Callia

[Karkras]

I'd like to raise a counterpoint that struck me as interesting while reading today's posts.

A few people have now mentioned the lack of a Fighter and Healer council, and the lack of secrecy involved in the "straightforward" governance and advancement procedures in the Fighter and Healer guilds.

I'd like to think that there ARE Fighter and Healer councils. From outward appearances, I would almost be SURE that there are, and within them, secrecy abounds.

Who made the following decisions? And why are some of the answers secret?
-Which trainers are first circle trainers and why?
-What colors are the fighter belts/circle shirts/pants?
-Which are the second circle trainers and why?
-Why can't professions cross train with other professions?
-What proportions of which lessons does Eva/Evus teach?
-Does Eva/Evus give a bonus, and if so, how much?
-Why are the 3rd and 4th circle fighter trainers outside the guild hall? (are they kicked out, rogue trainers? if so, who kicked them out?)
-Why does a healer have to wait until 2nd circle for a ring, 3rd for a cad, 4th for a merc staff and pendant?
-Why does a fighter have to wait until 3rd circle to train for goss or fell blade?
-Which creatures are in the circle tests, and what is their strength?
-How long should the tests last before time's up?
-How skilled is a trainee before they get a ledger?

...Those should be sufficient for illustration purposes.

Some will immediately point out that there aren't so many secrets among those questions, and some may jump in with "definitive" answers. In the many puddleyears that I've been quietly observing, if there's one thing consistent about the answers to these questions, it's the inconsistency. Each person who tests the "numbers" seems to come up with their own variation. Even though there is a high degree of information sharing and public speculation on these answers, the point is, no one knows. That makes the answers, and especially and most importantly, the motivations behind the answers, secret.

The second point is, the decision to set these parameters was ostensibly made by a decision-making body; I'm assuming it was the respective guild councils.

Some will immediately claim that these are manufactured, hot-air-caliber questions, because it is obvious that these parameters are set by the gamemasters and are integral to the game's design and balance. I say to these people that it seems apparent to me that the parameters for the mystic profession are sanctioned by those same gamemasters, who apparently believe they are integral to game design and balance. The only difference is, the guild council is run by players.

To go one step further, it is my considered belief that if we had a player-run fighter council (one which would award belt "stripes" based on experience, field tests, tactical ability, and general contribution to the profession and community, for example), it would quickly face the same "old boy's club" accusations.

[Unregistered]

<blockquote><i>Hidden wrote:</i><b>quote:Originally posted by Callia <br>[Is it technically possible to go from unknown exile, to "full" Mystic in one OOC year? Yes, technically.<br>Yes, I know that. I could create a character and "technically" be promoted to "Full" Mystic within a week, I'd say. That wasn't the question.]</b></blockquote>

You asked if it were possible, or if there were technical limitations. So.. as far as I can tell, yes, that was your question. If you think you asked something different, then please restate your question.

As for whether it is technically possible to create an FM from an unknown exile in a week? No, it's not. You're wrong. Minimum time, technically? Probably 9 (OOC) months. It depends a bit on how you play. If you were a fanatic, then you might be able to do it in 6 months.. but I'm only speaking of you meeting the technical criteria.


<blockquote><b>[So you admit that the path is not entirely dependant on knowledge and readiness? I'll even give you one more advantage: You are a superhuman and can spend 24/7 clanning and have been in the library for the past year, giving you 500 ranks to start out with.]</b></blockquote>

Your Honor? Objection, Mr. Hidden is attempting to lead the witness....

Each student advances when they are ready. You asked about the technical criteria, (OOC: the ranks, etc.) The technical criteria are, honestly, just about the most minor, and least important aspects of being a Mystic. You do have to do those too, but it's hardly ever an issue for any student. Just because an 8 year old can master the physical skills necessary for open heart surgery, doesn't mean she's ready to do it on her own. Being "ready" to advance is far more complex than you apparently believe.

What do you think about what happened to the Knights Hidden? I seem to recall that you posted that they were totally ruined, because <name-of-guilty-party-here> just gave away knighthoods to anyone who asked. Now.. I wouldn't have thought that you'd care much about them.. Knighthood being one of those laborious RP things.. but even you seemed to see that an institution which was "fun" for some people was ruined, or at least cheapened by a single irresponsible player.

Being ready to be a Mystic is more than just "Phenotype" your "Extended Phenotype" must also be complete and in place. To do that correctly on my schedule, even with my knowledge would take me about 1 and a half to two (OOC) years.

If I could clan 24/7? Hmmm, no.. that wouldn't be good, that would be too much. 24/7 makes Fighters and Healers advance faster, I think it would hurt a mystic. 8/7, or maybe 10/7, that might be good, if I could do that I might be able to shave 3 to 6 OOC months off..

The 500 "free" ranks? Pfft.. not important, keep'em.

Regards,
Callia

[Callia]

<blockquote><i>Kiriel wrote:</i><b>[What you say about Nyssa is interesting to me, because if the case is that what makes a mystic is their learning and personality that PWC has and not their training, it would seem to me that the regaining of Nyssa's status would not require a test. Comparing it to fighter or healer tests is a bit strange in a discussion where the mystics have emphasized time and time again that the mystic guild is different and does not follow the same promotional techniques as the other guilds.</b></blockquote>

Nyssa lost her status. Now.. it's certainly possible that that might have only been a minor ripple on her career. But it didn't work out that way. Nyssa isn't a generality, she's a specific case. Look at what I said to Hidden, what Nyssa did was to damage her "extended phenotype." Effectivily, she invalidated her previous test. So.. yes, she did have to take it again. But that was Nyssa, for someone else? It might be different.

And yes, using a "test" analogy to describe what mystics go through is really weird, and not very effective, but it's the closest thing I can think of which will give those unfamiliar with the Guild at least some understanding of what occured.

<blockquote><b>[I realize that Nyssa is no longer who she used to be, but I'm not sure whether this happened before or after the event you describe (I'm assuming after). Can you clarify?</b></blockquote>

The change in Nyssa's personality was fairly recent, all the events I described occured prior to that change.

Regards,
Callia

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Unregistered
What do you think about what happened to the Knights Hidden? I seem to recall that you posted that they were totally ruined, because <name-of-guilty-party-here> just gave away knighthoods to anyone who asked. Now.. I wouldn't have thought that you'd care much about them.. Knighthood being one of those laborious RP things.. but even you seemed to see that an institution which was "fun" for some people was ruined, or at least cheapened by a single irresponsible player.Yes, I do view some of the things the Knights do as rather laborious, RP-frivolity cliches, but I respect the institution. (Name of guilty party) did the frivolities (which, honestly, any idiot can do, unlike the Mystic process), and didn't respect the institution. The problem with Knights is a game mechanic one, though, actually. It only takes one Knight to make an unknown exile into a Knight, which makes one bad egg ruin the basket. For Mystics, it takes 3. 3 "unscrupulous" mystics are much harder to find. I consider this good design.
Being ready to be a Mystic is more than just "Phenotype" your "Extended Phenotype" must also be complete and in place. To do that correctly on my schedule, even with my knowledge would take me about 1 and a half to two (OOC) years.Hmm, I think I understand a bit better now. Thank you.
The 500 "free" ranks? Pfft.. not important, keep'em.Surely you wouldn't promote a mystic with 0 ranks, so what I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) this means is that all ranks necessary to advance as a mystic will come from the library in the time it takes to complete the requisite tasks. Interesting.

[Lundar]

Callia wrote:

<I>"500 "free" ranks? Pfft.. not important, keep'em."</I>

Better yet... give them to me! ;P

-Lundar<P>

[Farhope]

After trying to read the different points of vue, and chatting a little with Neige, I still think that he behaves quite harsh, too harsh.

I don't understand all this stuff about magic: Hidden has take the control of Manticore's mind? hmm, I see no evidence about this, I can remember for example a hunt where Manticore was there but Hidden was in the library. No, I don't believe this. And I see that, de facto, Neige with the help of Robin and Zorton has helped the orgas to keep the stone: hmm, I will see if their help to the orgas continue... hmm, or, maybe, they are just jealous of Manticore having a stone or more training with the stone than them? ... hmm... not sure... very strange behaviour with much non-sense explanations for me...

OOC:

Ok, ooc now.

- Character transfer: characters transfers are a fact I think, they happen (often or not, I don't know), I don't like that, I would like it doesn't occur regularly, but they happen and nothing can be done for stopping that.

I feel it very unfair to say it is bad for Manticore and not for the other. I think it is always something not to do.
And, no, I don't feel that because Manticore is a mystic, it is bad and for fighters or healers it is good: all the same for me.

And I wonder why now? is the transfer that new? I can remember some time ago (months ago, certainly) that Manticore has done some mystic things (opening Noth for example) with no one saying something. Is it because he had the opportunity to have an orga stone?

If I don't like character transfer, I don't think it is always a bad thing. Just, it is difficult the new player: suddently a specific training, suddently a constucted personnality to play or to change. If I don't feel the transfer when interacting with the character, it is ok for me. About the trainings or status a character has already, I have no problem, the problem is role playing. I don't feel it is "cheating" in playing a mystic or a 6th circle fighter without having to play for the beginning: if the character is already a mystic or a 6th circle fighter, too bad for the new player, she will not know how good it is to *become* one.

- Library character or pocket character: we are all library characters, what I don't like is character without personnality. If someone plays a character very few, what can I say? it is her choice (or she can not play a lot), not mine. If a character is only a brewer or a baker (hmm, that is very bad! - winks) or... too bad but Delta Tao permits and it is not expensive: the situation would be very different (better? I think, but I am not sure) if we had to pay every month for every character.

Summary: I don't think Neige reaction was good: too late (transfer is not new), only for mystic (better if it was for all professions, IMHO), and in a situation where it is possible to see some ooc jealousy (I hope there is none, I hope...). The good thing is that people, I guess, will be more aware of the character transfer - pocket character problematic.

[Noah]

Originally posted by Drablak
Yes I heard of him, and I also heard many healer complain about troilus-fighters. And, since you probably did not train with him, let me tell you that he can't teach you to raise fallen, hence the calls from fighters in south forest for healers...

Which complaints about troilus-fighters are you refering to? After the Ripture War, I promptly trained 215 troilus (that's 215 old, capped troilus mind you) and since then I never heard a complaint from a healer about it. In fact, most healers seemed delighted that they could heal me so quickly.

*shrugs*

[Mjollnir]

Originally posted by Drablak
Yes I heard of [B]him, and I also heard many healer complain about troilus-fighters. And, since you probably did not train with him, let me tell you that he can't teach you to raise fallen, hence the calls from fighters in south forest for healers...


I dont complain about Troilus, and ive never heard anybody else complain about troilus, it makes our jobs easier and leaves us more time to heal those who havent trained troilus.
Troilus wont make healers unnecessary unless everybody has as much troilus as Samwise and even then if he's hit fast enough and hard enough he falls just like every other exile.

And yes i do have some troilus myself, not very much ill grant you but i did train some when i was undecided upon which profession i wanted.

I know troilus cant raise fallens and if you'll recall i pointed out that you would still need a healer for that.

I agree that there can be cases where the desires of a guild and the desires of the general population can be at odds but i dont belive that this is one, why not let them use moonstones? If they decide to get ranks in healing skills then that limits them as a fighter, if they want fighter ranks it limits their healer skills there will always be some who want to be pure helers or pure fighters and some who want a bit of both.
But then again maybe i dont see this as a problem because i am essentially a lazy person.

Maybe we can persuade the ancients to do a trial run next time there is a particularly wild chaos storm just to see how it effects things.

[Lex]

Originally posted by Mjollnir
I agree that there can be cases where the desires of a guild and the desires of the general population can be at odds but i dont belive that this is one, why not let them use moonstones? If they decide to get ranks in healing skills then that limits them as a fighter, if they want fighter ranks it limits their healer skills there will always be some who want to be pure helers or pure fighters and some who want a bit of both.

Without training any healer ranks I could be quite effective with a moonstone :)

Lex

[Hidden]

You obviously don't have any recent recollection of what it's like to be a newbie healer, Lex :) The difference a moonstone would make for you is essentially meaningless. Sure, maybe you'd troilus up 20 seconds faster while solo hunting NWF, and maybe if you had a LOT of patience you could have an all fighter-with-moonstone Noids hunt, but even that's pushing it quite a bit.

[Lex]

Thing is, a newbie healer still heals me faster than I troilus, and I have 45 ranks of it. That's ranks I could put somewhere else if I could carry a moonstone. But the biggest advantage would be horus. 5 fighters on a hunt could invite healers with no horus and still be able to heal a MMS fallen.

Lex

[Hidden]

And by the time that fallen rose, enough stuff would have spawned to make them maimed right away again, not to mention you'd have to take constant breaks to recharge spirit and health while healing, since the fallen would probably give share preference to the real healers.

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Lex
Thing is, a newbie healer still heals me faster than I troilus, and I have 45 ranks of it.
Lex

Of course a FOTB healer heals you faster than you troilus ... you're troilusing *while* you're being healed. It's combined. And don't forget the cost. For a FOTB healer to heal you to full would take ages, what with all the recharging, and then twice as long at the end for the healer to self-heal back to full.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Dandelion
Of course a FOTB healer heals you faster than you troilus ... you're troilusing *while* you're being healed. It's combined. And don't forget the cost. For a FOTB healer to heal you to full would take ages, what with all the recharging, and then twice as long at the end for the healer to self-heal back to full. If Lex was healing herself with a moonstone, her Troilus would combine too. I just hope DT is reading this thread and see that all healers think it would be a good thing to give everyone the ability to use a moonstone.

[Fist of Fluff]

Originally posted by Drablak
I just hope DT is reading this thread and see that all healers think it would be a good thing to give everyone the ability to use a moonstone.

Yes, I believe this is exactly the point Dande was trying to make...[;)]

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Fist of Fluff
Yes, I believe this is exactly the point Dande was trying to make...[;)] Wasn't it? Have you seen one healer support the idea that giving the ability to use a moonstone to everyone would affect the healer profession? Dande was agreeing with all the others so I take it she agrees.

[Fist of Fluff]

Drabby, maybe I was reading the wrong post. Or, you're putting words in Dande's mouth. I'll wait until she replies to see just what she meant.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Fist of Fluff
Drabby, maybe I was reading the wrong post. Or, you're putting words in Dande's mouth. I'll wait until she replies to see just what she meant. I don't think I am. The subject at hand is that what may be good for Puddleby may not be good for a specific profession. I gave the example that giving all exiles the ability to use a moonstone would affect (negatively) the healer profession. Every healer replying after that has been trying to explain why that is not the case, by various arguments. In other words, no healer seem to think that giving the ability to use a moonstone to every exile would be a bad thing. No healer, including Dande, expressed concern at the thought. Dande was agreeing with the other healers by supporting their arguments.

I happen to disagree with that view, I think that it would affect the healers of Puddleby greatly if such a thing were to happen.

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Drablak
Dande was agreeing with the other healers by supporting their arguments.

I happen to disagree with that view, I think that it would affect the healers of Puddleby greatly if such a thing were to happen.

Hrm ... perhaps I quoted out of context. Actually, I wasn't really addressing the issue at all of whether or not fighters should have moonstones.

Someone had said that a newling healer could heal them faster than they could self-heal with their Troilus training. My point was intended to be that it will always appear so because both the newling healer and the fighter's self-heal (Troilus) are working at the same time. Even if a FOTB healer healed at half the speed of a fighter's self-heal (Troilus), it would appear faster because the healer is working *with* the self-heal, not instead of it (Gah! - I fear this is even less clear than what I said before). All the rest of that nonsense about self-healing was intended to point out (and failing to, I think) that healers really aren't that good at healing when they first start out ... and are horrible at self-healing, often taking longer to heal themselves back up to full than it took to heal the initial injury.

For the record, no I don't think cross-training would be beneficial to the healing profession ... but I'm just one healer and don't profess to speak for any but myself.

[Mjollnir]

Originally posted by Drablak
Every healer replying after that has been trying to explain why that is not the case, by various arguments. In other words, no healer seem to think that giving the ability to use a moonstone to every exile would be a bad thing. No healer, including Dande, expressed concern at the thought. Dande was agreeing with the other healers by supporting their arguments.

I count 2 healers aside from myself who have commented on what would happen if everybody was issued with a moonstone.
In your eyes this makes this the opinion of the general healer population?
Not every healer reads these posts, and im sure some of them who do dont check them regularly or feel the need to comment.
And does the ownership of a moonstone allow you into the healer temple and access to the healer trainers? No
So fighters couldnt train horus any more than a healer with a dagger can train detha

I dont think it would harm my livelyhood a) because i am lazy enough to think that anybody who does my work for me is a good thing and b) because a fighter cant heal and fight at the same time without a significant amount of troilus.

To Lex

45 troilus isnt a great amount in anything, its mearly a good place to start, a healer with 45 horus cant raise anybody who isnt quite for another healer and a fighter with 45 troilus or swingus cant block that much more damage or swing that many more times.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Mjollnir
I count 2 healers aside from myself who have commented on what would happen if everybody was issued with a moonstone.
In your eyes this makes this the opinion of the general healer population?
Not every healer reads these posts, and im sure some of them who do dont check them regularly or feel the need to comment. Many people here and in the lands have changed, or said they would change, their attitude towards mystics because of the actions of a single mystic. Fist of Fluff said so in an earlier post in this very thread for instance. 2 healers? Well, isn't that enough if one mystic is enough? [;)]
Originally posted by Mjollnir
And does the ownership of a moonstone allow you into the healer temple and access to the healer trainers? No
So fighters couldnt train horus any more than a healer with a dagger can train dethaEvery exile comes with 100s of inborn healer ranks. A newby healer isn't as efficient as an experienced healer of course, but he can certainly raise some fallens and heal people in many situations. It's not a question of being as good as all the other healers, it's a question of being useful in some situations, and I have two healers, both of which were useful the minute they got their moonstone.Originally posted by Mjollnir I dont think it would harm my livelyhood a) because i am lazy enough to think that anybody who does my work for me is a good thing and b) because a fighter cant heal and fight at the same time without a significant amount of troilus.[/B]Fighters can fight then retreat to heal, and since they can brick better than healers, two fighters could heal each other in the middle of many critters that a healer would run from. I think you underestimate what effect it would have.

[Lex]

Originally posted by Dandelion
Someone had said that a newling healer could heal them faster than they could self-heal with their Troilus training. My point was intended to be that it will always appear so because both the newling healer and the fighter's self-heal (Troilus) are working at the same time.

Actually, it's about 4X as fast, meaning 75% of the healing is from the healer, and 25% is from troilus

Lex

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Drablak
Many people here and in the lands have changed, or said they would change, their attitude towards mystics because of the actions of a single mystic. Fist of Fluff said so in an earlier post in this very thread for instance. 2 healers? Well, isn't that enough if one mystic is enough? [;)]1 full mystic is a significant (> 2%) portion of the combined Full Mystics, and even of the Mystics Guild (there are currently just over 270 mystics, library-only rank experiment mystics included). 2 healers is not even a significant portion of the elite 4th circle, much less the whole guild.
and I have two healers, both of which were useful the minute they got their moonstone.Oh really? But where were they useful? Hunting with other newbies in the farms and fields? Trust me, a 0-rank healer will do NO significant good past the south forest. Your healer characters gain healer ranks, and thus improve quickly at early levels where rank gain is fast. That's why you don't notice how useless they would be in, say, TGBG.
two fighters could heal each other in the middle of many critters that a healer would run from.I maintain that even if the fighters bricked the critters, it still would not make a significant difference in the ammount of damage they took and the ammount of time they stayed up. Their spirit would be gone within 30 seconds, and they would have gotten a 20 histia boost each. Whoopty shit.

I would love to see an update in which Fighters could use Moonstones. I assure you no healer who is a 'Lord' or higher (and has a real perspective on the healer class as a whole) would so much as raise an eyebrow, except maybe the spoiled rescue healers who live on their 20 newbie shares.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Hidden
1 full mystic is a significant (> 2%) portion of the combined Full Mystics, and even of the Mystics Guild (there are currently just over 270 mystics, library-only rank experiment mystics included). 2 healers is not even a significant portion of the elite 4th circle, much less the whole guild.Actually I think your numbers are conservative, but that isn't the point. When is it ok to judge a group of people by the actions of a single individual, whatever the size of the group?
Oh really? But where were they useful? Hunting with other newbies in the farms and fields? Trust me, a 0-rank healer will do NO significant good past the south forest. Your healer characters gain healer ranks, and thus improve quickly at early levels where rank gain is fast. That's why you don't notice how useless they would be in, say, TGBG.Well, that's mostly true. Of course you don't give the numbers of rescues happening in sf as opposed to TGBG. And aren't you the one with a Spirtus ledger? A fighter can train spirtus too if he wanted to be better at healing.
But frankly I think that all that nitpicking is really beside the point. You think it wouldn't change a thing, I think it would make a difference. Let's leave it at that. My original argument was that what may be good for a profession, isn't necessarily good for Puddleby. Do you agree with that?

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Drablak
Actually I think your numbers are conservative, but that isn't the point. When is it ok to judge a group of people by the actions of a single individual, whatever the size of the group?Because the Mystic Guild controls who is let in, they have responsibility for their members. The healer's guild is open to all exiles who chose to join it, and thus cannot as a whole be held responsible, since it wasn't (for example) my decision to let Zaroff in.
Well, that's mostly true. Of course you don't give the numbers of rescues happening in sf as opposed to TGBG.That would be the overspoiled rescuehealer territory that I don't business in.And aren't you the one with a Spirtus ledger?Nope. I'm about 400 ranks away from that.A fighter can train spirtus too if he wanted to be better at healing.You are mistaken. Spirtus is like Bodrus in the sense that without profession specific trainers he does nil good. A figther with 100 spirtus would have about 10 seconds worth of healing in him.
But frankly I think that all that nitpicking is really beside the point. You think it wouldn't change a thing, I think it would make a difference. Let's leave it at that.Alright. In addition, I think that's a really dumb way to argue and you don't. Let's leave it at that.My original argument was that what may be good for a profession, isn't necessarily good for Puddleby. Do you agree with that? I agree that what you think is good for you (y'all, mystics) may not necessarily coincide with what is actually good for Puddleby, and therefore you. The mystics guild is a part of Puddleby, so what's good for puddleby is good for you. If something hurts Puddleby, it hurts you.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Hidden
Alright. In addition, I think that's a really dumb way to argue and you don't. Let's leave it at that.LOL. I agree it's a dumb way to argue, that is, nitpicking on a example given to illustrate a point instead of (or to avoid) answering the original question. But, the nice thing is that you answered all the questions remarkably nonetheless, wether you realise it or not. Let's leave it at that.

[Ruen]

Originally posted by Drablak
Many people here and in the lands have changed, or said they would change, their attitude towards mystics because of the actions of a single mystic.


I'm not sure that's really true, though it may have sounded like that. It sounds more like what happened was people had some problems that had been building all along and what happened with Neige and Manticore maybe just focused everyone on mystics.

In my case, I just don't understand the whole Neige and Manticore thing. I just don't get what the problem is, except that its some internal mystic thing and some people think Manticore is crazy. I've never met Manticore, so I couldn't say. My opinion of mystics is being changed by all this discussion about it. As I see it, people are rasing concerns, and then the mystics come and say "If you don't like it, don't become a mystic," which doesn't make too much sense, because as far as I can see the people they are talking to are already fighters and healers and so they can't become mystics and probably don't want to be.

When I tried asking about this, and talking about it and saying how distressing it was, then the mystics here stated playing games of "what if". What if fighters could use moonstones, what if Detha lived in Troilus' hut. What if is a game for mystis; I'm a fighter and I'm no good at what if. I like more practical questions like how many vermine can I kill on my own. Fighters can't use moonstones, and I have no problem with that because I've never had trouble finding a healer to heal me. My opinion of mystics is being shaped by stuff like the abruptness with which Luminary was replying to people and the fact that Drablak said I was trying to make him an enemy just because I don't get his whole what-if game. Its also being shaped by those apprentices and journeymen that I've met in the lands who seem much nicer, and whom I feel sorry for because it seems their leadership isn't doing well by them.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Ruen
I just don't understand all this spirituality business. Sounds darn confusing. Sounds like it might be a good idea to stay away from mystics because they are subtle, and ...uh... get upset quick. Not to mention it seems that some have gone insane. So, I guess I'd be a lot happier if the mystics out there would please not do ...umm... whatever it is that they do on my behalf, and I'll be sure to stay clear of them and get on with the vermine hunting. That was your very first post on the subject Ruen, well before any what-if games, as you put it. If you want to pretend that later post shaped your attitude, you had it to begin with. In your very first post on the subject you did not ask for clarification, you simply made a jugdement call. I tried to explain further but you don't want answers, your mind is already made up.

I won't judge all fighters by your actions though, but that's just me.

[Ruen]

Originally posted by Drablak
That was your very first post on the subject Ruen, well before any what-if games, as you put it.

That is incorrect. I had posted question earlier, I just forgot to sign my name. Luminary gave me a very abrupt non-answer.

The post you quoted was also meant as a question, in the form of a challenge. The question was "Is this really what you want me to think?" If I'd just had the attitude to start with I wouldn't have bothered posting on a discussion forum. Not all questions end in a question mark. I was also trying to shame some of the FMs who were posting into better behaviour, but that seems pointless now.

[Rincewind]

Just before this thread degenerates completely....

There's been quite a few comments in this thread and other similar places about pocket mystics/healers etc...
....The Mystic council is supposedly terrified of them.....
...Horus Healers try to not get depressed by them......
...and seems most people dislike the idea of them...

so what exactly is a pocket character ??

As far as i can tell, a pocket character is a secondary helper character, created with the aim of assisting the main character, either with skills the main character doesnt want to "waste" ranks on, or of a different class to the main, with the aim of assisting with skills unavailable to the them. Part of the definition seems to infer that they are not independantly played - or maybe even playable. Also that it requires little or no effort to make them - just get training the appropriate skill, and hibernate in the lib.

Examples would be .....
an otherwise appaling exile with a skea/dentir ledger, to be left at the edge of the snell, while the main character hunts.

a healer to raise/heal/chain the main fighter so that they can solo hunt more easily...would most likely train loovma/horus/higgy i guess

a maxed out PF to open those tedious paths/areas....though as this is only 100 ranks, i cant really see that it would be worth the hassle.

a baker/brewer/alchemist/clothing mender to save a few coins or learn the "RP" non-fighting skills

As for a pocket mystic, the only useful skills a "pocket mystic" could learn as far as i can see is illusion busting or perhaps teleporting too. However as both these skill are only available to full mystics and above, this requires a huge investment of time/energy simply to get to be able to train them, let alone become skilled; which rather defeats the whole objective - letting your main rankwhore character rankwhore in better places, as creating such a character takes away time that could be used to rankwhore more. I think Callia estimated earlier in the thread that even knowing what she does, it would take at least an ooc year to get to FM - i'd personally estimate much longer, now that there are so many more AMs/JMs about - all that effort just so your rankwhore character can get into noth/foothills or whereever at any time ??

To me this sounds at the very least, pointless, and pretty much a self-defeating exercise. If one were to creat such a character with this aim in mind, to get promoted it would have to become well known, and develop a personality of their own, which means that they wouldnt be a pocket character in the first place. The only other alternative, would be to trade on the main characters personality, and try to persuade FM friends to promote them....and thus alert the powers that be that such a character was about - a move i'd imagine unlikely to succeed as i very much doubt any FM would like to see this happen.

To wind this up, the ONLY way i can see to get a genuine pocket mystic, ie skilled without putting the work in, is to buy/borrow an already existing character, although someone somewhere has to put the work in, so it cant have started out with this aim.

Rincewind

[Phelps]

Originally posted by Dandelion


Ruen,
Iff'n yer gonna stay away from a whole profession 'cuz ya might run into someone who's nuts or hot-headed, you'd best be steerin' clear of healers, fighters, bards, knights, bakers, gamblers, monks, paupers, brewers, tailors, kings an' those unprofessioned-types, too (Did I fergit anyone?). Folx is folx. Some is nuts, some isn't. Meet 'em all an' decide fer yerself. Paintin' groups with too broad a brush'll just lead ya t'lonliness.

Dande

Are we nuts or hot-headed?


King Phelps the Everlasting

[Delirium]

Are we nuts or hot-headed?


What was it the Cheshire Cat said to Alice? "You are here, are you not."?

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Phelps


Are we nuts or hot-headed?


King Phelps the Everlasting

Yes.

[Manticorr]

I'm not sure that's really true, though it may have sounded like that. It sounds more like what happened was people had some problems that had been building all along and what happened with Neige and Manticore maybe just focused everyone on mystics.

Hey guys, this is, in fact, the first Manticore (and before that, SirManticore, haha those were the days). I was wondering if anyone could put me in touch with Noah or Hidden? If you don't believe me, that's fine, I would just appreciate an ICQ number or email address. [redacted]

Hilarious, I found out about this whole debacle by searching google for ' "clan lord" manticore'. I'd be interested to hear how Puddleby's doing these days. I wish I still had my old mac with its freaking *library* of CL screenshots.

Thanks,
-Manti