Orga stone trade

[Drablak]

[I also posted this on the ng /ponder what was I thinking?]

/WARNING long post

Because I have seen so many people opposed to this deal, I thought I'd put my view on it on paper.

From a completely biased pov, I am interested in this deal because I am
interested in exploring EP more than I do now. Yes there are ways to EP
at the moment, but they aren't always easy to navigate and they require
time. Through TK requires to gather crystal shards and then navigate a
zodiac maze where even the most proficient breaker can slip off upon
entering (those who have been there know what I mean). UK is, well, UK.
And MI isn't all that easy since the last update. There are other
routes too, all requiring various contorsions.

Of course, a group that wants to visit EP needs to be able to tackle
these areas, but having to do so adds time (and risks) to any expedition and thus
removes time available to actually explore EP. Also, because of the closed
quarters of some of the areas, EP is sometimes easier than those
accesses we now have to it (it's easier to have a healer run stuff on
EP for instance).

Another important aspect to the proposed portal is that it will
provide a way to retreat (if I understand correctly), a thing _none_
of the other access methods offer at the moment and which could prove
very useful. I think this is a major difference. Think about it.

Of course, being able to construct portals (trainers to learn to
construct these being part of the deal) is very interesting too. I am
not sure if they would be portals that lead only to the EP either,
maybe we'd be able to construct portals to other areas on the island
(can anyone say foothills)? Or maybe portals leading directly to
spheres beyond the first sphere of EP (all existing portals lead only
to the 1st sphere of EP). What's in the other spheres? I dunno. Maybe
bigger critters? It may be interesting to some people to have a portal
to the 4th sphere so as not to have to go through various hoops just to get to the first sphere and then move through the
EP to get to the 'fun' hunting area in the 4th sphere (just an
example). Same thing with TGBG2 in the FH, if we had a portal to Camp Dread so
that people could go and hunt there without having to commit to 3 hours
just to get there. Who knows? We won't know until we have access to the
technology.

Now, of course, there is the issue of the Brions having Orga Stones and
thus posing a threat to Puddleby. Of course we can't trust them, but
that didn't prevent anyone from trading purg pendants or other stuff to
get goodies in the past did it? Purg pendant in the hands of the Brions
could possibly represent a threat to purgatory, and our ability to
depart by extension, yet they were traded nonetheless. And we still can
depart. Compare this to Orga Stone which are fragile tools (anyone
remember how they broke easily at first when no one had much training
in them?) and have some pretty big limitations (range, requirements to
hold the stone, etc.). Add to that the fact that the Brions seem to
already have the ability to teleport anywhere they want, and I don't
really see what they could gain from these stones that they haven't
already. Yet, they still want them, so I guess they can surprise us
with a devious scheme, but I don't see it as anymore of a risk, on the
contrary, to earlier deals with them.

And on an OOC-side of things, it can only add some spice to the Brion
storyline. which may be stalling because of this deal not being made
(the offer dates way back). Anyone seen the new island coming out of
the ocean? Think it's a coincidence that it comes now? Think again.
/END OOC

So anyways, completely biased and completely personal opinion on this
trade. I am all for it.

Drablak

[Aravir]

Drablak writes:

I am not sure if they would be portals that lead only to the EP either,
maybe we'd be able to construct portals to other areas on the island
(can anyone say foothills)?

An interesting thought. My impression from the letter was that the portals would only lead to the Ethereal Plane. However, it might still be possible to achieve the desired result. If you build a portal in another area, and have it connect to the same area on the Ethereal as one in town, that would be just as good.

[Lilly]

In an IC fashion, Lai doesnt care one way or another who gets these stones or how they use them. None of her business, really. in an OOC fashion, however, I wholeheartedly support the idea of actually taking an active hand in moving the plot along. I don't really see why people are so concerned with caution - DT may increase some challenges based on the decisions we make with the Brion's, but they would not go so far as to make the game un-fun to play. If purgatory is broken for awhile, this merely means that rescues become all the more valuable, and there is more incentive not to throw your life away - as well as there being a plt to try and repair it. If the Brion's decide to send a wave of undine into the center of town with the stones every night - that just means there would be a point to actually trying to defend the town (or, people would actually use the bars instead of the town center to gather). All in all whether it helped us or hindered us it would breathe some new life into the game, which would be refreshing.

Arteress Lai

[Hrothgar]

In an OOC mindset I'l help anyone who can convice me that they are trying to push a plot along. The current brion situation is one of the very few instances I've seen where we have a chance to actively shape part of the world =) Also, they have promised to share any information obtained from the stones, and the Portals that Drablak mentioned would likely be a great continuation of other storylines (We know the orga have a major settlement around to the east, they use teleportation to get to our area, why not go to theirs.)
I honestly don't care who gets credit for completing the deal so long as everyone gets access to what can be learned. It would annoy me greatly if say PM (Example, not that much offense intended) got stones and altered the deal to recieve things for Juuuuust them because they are so special. Same goes for the mystic council.

[Kiriel]

Personally I have a problem with this whole thing, mainly because of the recent Manticore thing. I'm as big a fan of pushing stories along as the next person, but I have some IC issues with it because of what happened.

On the one hand, the mystic council says that Manticore's not a real mystic and he doesn't deserve a stone. Yet on the other hand, they want to give 6 stones to some definite non-mystics in exchange for an ethereal portal. It seems very inconsistent to me, and I don't know what to think about it. I've been mulling it over and any way I look at it, it seems hypocritical to me.

So I'm still trying to think of how to resolve this inconsistency in my mind before I can be really supportive of anyone's efforts to give the Brions the stones, even if I do like the idea of making something useful happen.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Kiriel
Personally I have a problem with this whole thing, mainly because of the recent Manticore thing. I'm as big a fan of pushing stories along as the next person, but I have some IC issues with it because of what happened.I can understand and I respect that.

[Lundar]

Replying to:

<I>"In an IC fashion, Lai doesnt care one way or another who gets these stones or how they use them. In an OOC fashion, however, I wholeheartedly support the idea of actually taking an active hand in moving the plot along."</I>

OOC:

It is true that actively supporting the deal with the 'Brions will help move the plot along, but so will actively OPPOSING it. Put yourself in your character's shoes: What would they do in this situation? If Lai doesn't care about what happens either way, then that's fine too. However, taking an active role is usually more fun than just being passive. Does Lai really not care if Puddleby is destroyed? That's one possible outcome for either supporting or opposing the 'Brions.

Do as you will though, and most importantly, have fun! If you're not having fun, you're missing the point of the game.

-PWC Lundar<P>

[Delirium]

I will not be helping with any FMOCR's to get stones for the 'Brions. Tenebrion told a group I was with that *HE MADE* his books from the *SKINS OF SYLVAN CHILDREN*!!!!! I have a vision stone of that meeting posted on the uploads section of our clan pages - http://www.windsofdawn.org/uploads.html - it's the one labeled "FB meet Tenebrion". I feel sick to my stomach when I think of the number of children murdered for the sake of his vast library. How can anyone even think of doining anything that would help this vile monster!

-Delirium

(OOC: yes, it might be cool to have a portal in town, but there is just no way Delirium could help with anything that could work to Tenebrion's advantage - not after what she heard him say. The guy is a baby-killer and mass-murderrer as far as Delirium is concerned, and she would gladly use Tenebrion for target practice with her bow).

[Ruen]

Originally posted by Delirium
Tenebrion told a group I was with that *HE MADE* his books from the *SKINS OF SYLVAN CHILDREN*!!!!!


Ick! And people are making deals with this guy and his brothers???!!! Why?

[Lundar]

Delirium writes:

<I>"I will not be helping with any FMOCR's to get stones for the 'Brions. Tenebrion told a group I was with that *HE MADE* his books from the *SKINS OF SYLVAN CHILDREN*!!!!! I have a vision stone of that meeting posted on the uploads section of our clan pages - http://www.windsofdawn.org/uploads.html - it's the one labeled "FB meet Tenebrion". I feel sick to my stomach when I think of the number of children murdered for the sake of his vast library. How can anyone even think of doining anything that would help this vile monster!"</I>

Tan'ki for sharing the visionstone Delirium, I found it very interesting. That being said, I think that you should review your facts before you raise such bold accusations against Tenebrion.

In the visionstone, Tenebrion does NOT say that he created the books in his library, rather he states that he has collected them, from various sources. Who knows what motives the original creators of the tomes could have had, for using sylvan skins in their books?

Conceivably, the books could have been created by desparate sylvans who needed a long-lasting alternative to paper. Who is to say that the skin was not given voluntarily, or taken from dead sylvans? This is not to say that making books out of skin is in very good taste, but collecting such books should not be a crime.

Also, there is no mention made in the visionstone that the sylvan skins come from infants. That's a rather nasty accusation to make, don't you think? Logically, an adult sylvan would provide more skin than an infant would.

Here is a short excerpt of the relevant parts of the conversation:

<I>Lex asks, "did you make them?"
Tenebrion asks, "The books?"
Tenebrion says, <B>"I have collected them."</B>
Lex says, "but... you don't come across books like these too often"
Tenebrion says, "They are rare."
Jo Ma'ril asks, "where'd you find them?"
Tenebrion says, "Here and there."
Tenebrion says, "I have many books. These are but a few."
Praetorius asks, "Ew, these pages are made of skin?!?"
Tenebrion says, "Skin lasts longer than paper."
Jo Ma'ril asks, "What language are these books over here written in?"
Tenebrion says, "They are in many different languages."
Praetorius asks, "Might I ask, what kind of skin are they made of?"
Tenebrion says, "Sylvans mostly."
Tenebrion says, "It lasts the longest I have found."</I>

-Lundar<P>

[Delirium]

I will have to review the visionstone myself. Perhaps I am remembering a different conversation, but I distinctly remember Tenebrion saying that the skins of sylvan children were used because they had "special properties."

In any case, most of what you say sounds like rationalization. However Tenebrion says he got the books, I believe he is responsible for the creation of at least some of them, if not all of them. As for skin taken from the dead... Goddess!! You can't be serious?! I..... I... don't know where to start.....

/action sighs

Look. Tenebrion has a library of books made from Sylvan skin. Does this not at least raise in your mind the possibility that he is a mass murderer? If you suspect that someone is an assassin sent to kill you, would you trade your sword for his horse? Such is the deal that has been proposed.


-Delirium

[Lundar]

Delirium writes:

<I>"However Tenebrion says he got the books, I believe he is responsible for the creation of at least some of them, if not all of them."</I>

What makes you say this? Where is your proof? It's rather unfair of you to make such accusations against Tenebrion based on circumstantial evidence.

<I>"As for skin taken from the dead... Goddess!! You can't be serious?! I..... I... don't know where to start..... "</I>

As a sylvan myself, I feel more than a little uncomfortable about the use of sylvan skin in creating books. However, like I said, I do not think we are in a position to judge such actions as either right or wrong until we understand the reasons and circumstances surrounding the creation of such tomes.

You say Tenebrion murdered hundreds of sylvan infants to create his books. I say it could just as easily have been the noble sacrifice of a dying sylvan, who wished to preserve the words of his people. The truth is that we do not know.

<I>"Look. Tenebrion has a library of books made from Sylvan skin. Does this not at least raise in your mind the possibility that he is a mass murderer?"</I>

By your logic, the librarian Edric must be a wood-cutter, since he has a library of books made from paper.

-Lundar<P>

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Delirium
she would gladly use Tenebrion for target practice with her bow
...if she had a Bow, anyway. &lt;G&gt;

Originally posted by Lundar
It is true that actively supporting the deal with the 'Brions will help move the plot along, but so will actively OPPOSING it.
Do you have any evidence of this? It looks to me like the Brions are going to hold their ground on this deal, and personally hearing people bicker about the deal is nowhere near as interesting as the results of the deal going through.

[Ruen]

Originally posted by Lundar
<I>Praetorius asks, "Might I ask, what kind of skin are they made of?"
Tenebrion says, "Sylvans mostly."
Tenebrion says, "It lasts the longest I have found."</I>


I'm not saying this proves anything, but doesn't this little exchange seem to imply that Tenebrion has experimented and found that sylvan skin lasts longer than other types of skin (like maybe dwarf or thoom)? And if he knows for a fact that sylvan skin lasts longer than say zo or whatever wouldn't he have had to aquire samples of each when they were more or less fresh? At the very least I think this implies that he knows quite a bit about the books creation.

If you heard me say "I've found that giant vermine give the best furs when skinned," honestly, how would you assume I'd come by the information?

[Delirium]

Lundar said:

By your logic, the librarian Edric must be a wood-cutter, since he has a library of books made from paper.


No, Edric bears the responsibility for the cutting of the trees that are used to make the paper in the books he orders, but need not himself be a woodcutter. I think you are mistaken, though, in saying that Edric's books are made from wood-pulp paper. I think you will find that most of his volumes are of parchment, which lasts much longer, and is made of the skins of animals. In the case of a parchment volume, Edric holds responsibility for the killing of the animals used to make the volume, but need not himself be a heardsman.

As Ruen points out, Tenebrion implies he had a hand in the choice of materials.

-Delirium

[Drablak]

Deli, didn't you admit to killing humans before? Does that make you a mass murderer?

[Delirium]

Nai, that was self-defense. As I clearly stated before, those humans were part of an army that was attacking our city. Had we not defended ourselves, we would have been killed. As it was, I lost many dear friends in that seige. I am hurt that you would call me a murderer for defending my home, Drabby.


-Delirium

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Delirium
Nai, that was self-defense. As I clearly stated before, those humans were part of an army that was attacking our city. Had we not defended ourselves, we would have been killed. As it was, I lost many dear friends in that seige. I am hurt that you would call me a murderer for defending my home, Drabby. I didn't call you a murderer, I asked the question. Isn't it possible that the Brion defended their homes from sylvans? I was just showing that knowing a single fact (the Brion have books made from sylvan skin, Deli killed humans) doesn't always lead to the right conclusion (the Brion and Deli are mass murderers).

I don't think you are a murderer, and I didn't mean to compare you to the Brion, since you have shown me that you are a decent sylvan being. I also have heard many bad things about the Brions, so I have a rather negative opinion of them in general, yet I think everything isn't always white or black.

[Aravir]

Perhaps someone should just ask Tenebrion how he came by those books. He may offer an innocent explanation, which probably wouldn't satisfy anyone because of the possibility that he might be lying.

However, if he did make them, he might just say so. After all, he doesn't seem to think there's anything strange about letting people (especially Sylvans) see those books in the first place. He may just be so amoral that it hasn't occurred to him that others might object to them.

[Lex]

Originally posted by Kiriel
On the one hand, the mystic council says that Manticore's not a real mystic and he doesn't deserve a stone. Yet on the other hand, they want to give 6 stones to some definite non-mystics in exchange for an ethereal portal. It seems very inconsistent to me, and I don't know what to think about it. I've been mulling it over and any way I look at it, it seems hypocritical to me.

I believe that in both cases, their (mystics) response has been a mix of IC and OOC.

My IC response is that I really don't care. My OOC response is that the brions are so boring that anything that gets them actively doing something is good.

By the way, even though the it was the mystic council that agreed to the trade, they can't do it without a LOT of help from exiles. The 6 stones are supposed to be traded in 13 OOC weeks, so they have to get a stone successfully half the time. If the rest of the community collectively says "no, we won't help you" the trade will never take place.

Lex

[Lex]

Originally posted by Hidden
Do you have any evidence of this? It looks to me like the Brions are going to hold their ground on this deal, and personally hearing people bicker about the deal is nowhere near as interesting as the results of the deal going through.

I agree. The GMs only have so much creative energy, and they're not going to invest a lot of time in several different "outcomes" when only one can ever take place. They created a story and we are going to play along, even if they have to bend and twist it until we swallow it.

Lex

[Lilly]

I havent seen the vision stone, but nobody seems to be mentioning on the forum that the skin came from *dead* sylvans...just sylvans. The most logical source to find such skin would be to have living people sell their skin to him, and then heal the damages with a moonstone. This would allow the sources of such skin to return again when more skin was necessary. In my experiences Tenebrion has always seemed far more interested in trading for things he needs rather then just taking them.

Arteress Lai

[Farhope]

1) What or who is the "council"?
2) I don't trust the 'Brions brothers. I will certainly not help to have more stones for them. I always say I find it a bad idea to help them.

[OOC: Sure, I think it would be more fun to help them]

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Farhope
1) What or who is the "council"?
2) I don't trust the 'Brions brothers. I will certainly not help to have more stones for them. I always say I find it a bad idea to help them.

[OOC: Sure, I think it would be more fun to help them] Well, I don't know who is the council. I don't really care either. Sor has a Koppi annoucement saying that it should be every exile that negotiates for the trade, but it always has been that way. As far as I know, the 'council' hasn't been to a secret meeting with the brothers. Most of the time, it's mostly fighters and healers that talk to the brothers, with sometimes a mystic present. I think these mystics report back to the council and they discuss the offer among themselves. They have now issued a letter saying they would make the trade. Personnally I think that it's great. I am rather surprised in fact, since many of the mystics I talked to were concerned. I said earlier why I think it's a good idea. I haven't seen anyone express a tangible concern against it yet, except for "we shouldn't 'cause they're not to be trusted".

[Lundar]

<I>"No, Edric bears the responsibility for the cutting of the trees that are used to make the paper in the books he orders, but need not himself be a woodcutter."</I>

Because Edric owns books made of paper, he is responsible for the cutting of the trees? I don't think this makes much sense. If I were to somehow obtain one of Tenebrion's books(made of sylvan skin) would that also make me a mass-murderer in your eyes?

<I>"As Ruen points out, Tenebrion implies he had a hand in the choice of materials."</I>

The quote again is:

<I>Praetorius asks, "Might I ask, what kind of skin are they made of?"
Tenebrion says, "Sylvans mostly."
Tenebrion says, "It lasts the longest I have found."</I>

So Tenebrion has collected books that are made from the skins of various different peoples/animals. He's found that over the years, the books made of sylvan skin have lasted the longest. How does this imply that Tenebrion created those books?

-Lundar<P>

[Lex]

Originally posted by Drablak
As far as I know, the 'council' hasn't been to a secret meeting with the brothers.

By "council", I just meant a large number of mystics, not necessarily only mystic council members.

And yes, there was a meeting. One day there were about 8 mystics in the lands (when often it's amazing to see more than 2) and Umbrion was clanning, all for several hours. 2 + 2 = 4 :)

Anyway, it was a day or two later that Lundar reported about the stone trade.

Lex

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Lex
By "council", I just meant a large number of mystics, not necessarily only mystic council members.

And yes, there was a meeting. One day there were about 8 mystics in the lands (when often it's amazing to see more than 2) and Umbrion was clanning, all for several hours. 2 + 2 = 4 :) Drat! You mean I am not on the A-list? /action looks dejected

[:D]

Well, as I said "as far I as know," I guess I now know better.

/ponder there must have been a meteor shower at the time, what with so many FM in the lands at once...

[Unregistered]

On the sylvan skin issue
This may seem cold and brutal but as a scientific curiosity does anybody know how Tenebrion stores his books?
He must be doing something special inorder to stop the skin from disintegrating.
Also skin doesnt hold ink all that well ( as everybody who has drawn their own tatoos when they cant aford the real ones will know) and evern from dead skin the ink would be so faded that it should be totally unreadable

[Delirium]

First, to our unregistered friend:

It is not raw skin, but parchment. Parchment is similar to paper, but is made out of animal skins. It is very durrable and holds ink well (OOC most manuscrpits from the middle ages are on parchment).

Second:

Lundar and I spoke at length in town. This is *MY* summary of the views Lundar expressed (and reflects my biases):

Lundar takes the position that Tenebrion is innocent until proven guilty and it is fine to make deals with him right up until he is proven guilty. Lundar feels that the evidence against Tenebrion is all circumstantial and thus dismisses it all. He seems all the more willing to dismiss the evidence because he sees profit in the exchange.

It is my feeling that, while the evidence against Tenebrion might not convict him in court, it raises grave suspicions. I think that it would be foolish to deal with Tenebrion when he is probably guilty of vile murders. Giving the stones to Tenebrion seems to me to be like handing a knife to an assasin sent to kill you.

Goddess save us all from these foolish Mystics!

-Delirium

[Drax]

Pardon me for interrupting your debate,

A small thing such as Tenebrion's bindery methods shouldn't deter Puddlebeans from supporting the mystic council. They have a desire to see this deal through, and I feel they should be supported. I'm certain that their actions are in the community's best interests, as usual.

After all, these are the wisest of our scholars, and have only taken us down the wrong path on the rarest of occasions. For example, Lundar himself recently led a force against the largest Orga army ever amassed in Tanglewood... and defeated them, soundly. Surely, he and these other mystics (spriggins aside) have done much to earn our trust. Now is the time for us to earn theirs.

Additionally, I should say that we have very little to fear from Tenebrion. In fact, I think he is more concerned with us, than we are with him. I'm sure you are all aware of the incident that led to his emissary's death (in our own town center,) which is likely the reason he has not put forward more direct contact with the community as a whole. He fears the taste of our blades.

Lastly, I'd like to add that fearful debates have led nowhere over the past few puddleyears. Our community is stronger, but just think of what we *could* be?

As the saying goes; let's not pray to an absent god. With this trade, we may finally learn the secrets of our plane, and harness the technology to move freely between it and the ethereal one. It's possible we may even accomplish more than ever dreamt.

I look forward to seeing you all on the other side. ;)

-Drax

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Drax
A small thing such as Tenebrion's bindery methods shouldn't deter Puddlebeans from supporting the mystic council. They have a desire to see this deal through, and I feel they should be supported. I'm certain that their actions are in the community's best interests, as usual.

As usual? Can you name an action of Full Mystic(s) that were done with the community's best interests that happened after the Ripture War?

After all, these are the wisest of our scholars, and have only taken us down the wrong path on the rarest of occasions. For example, Lundar himself recently led a force against the largest Orga army ever amassed in Tanglewood... and defeated them, soundly. Surely, he and these other mystics (spriggins aside) have done much to earn our trust. Now is the time for us to earn theirs.

Are you saying that Lundar let this force or merely took place in it? Are you saying that it was Lundar's idea to take the battle to the Orga's home and planned how to defeat them?

I think fighters and healers have done much alread to earn the respect of Mystics by helping them get to the ethereal trainers despite not getting anything back from that and in helping them get strange stones despite not getting anything back from that either. Maybe now it's time for the Mystics to prove to fighters and healers that they will use this knowledge wisely and for the betterment of us all.

Additionally, I should say that we have very little to fear from Tenebrion. In fact, I think he is more concerned with us, than we are with him. I'm sure you are all aware of the incident that led to his emissary's death (in our own town center,) which is likely the reason he has not put forward more direct contact with the community as a whole. He fears the taste of our blades.

Why was this emissary able to be killed when we can't hurt each other except in the Arena and the Badlands? I think Tenebrion created this slave with the ability to be attacked by exiles in order to create discord amongst us so that we would not be united against him. I also doubt that Tenebrion has much to fear from us since I don't think we can make him fall if he's really as powerful as he wants us to think of him.

As the saying goes; let's not pray to an absent god. With this trade, we may finally learn the secrets of our plane, and harness the technology to move freely between it and the ethereal one. It's possible we may even accomplish more than ever dreamt.

I look forward to seeing you all on the other side. ;)

I'd like this as well but I'm not sure if the Brions is the source of this knowledge since it comes with too many strings attached, both known and unknown.

[Aerick]

First, as a point of question, isn't parchment made from reeds, and vellum what is made from skins?

Also, I think that the best solution is to break the whole Ethereal Plane, and see if they want to negotiate a bit better THEN. But that's been tried for a while, I think, and realistically, I think the only way to get ANYthing done is to do what they want.

-Aerick

[Aerick]

Please ignore my earlier error regarding the nature of parchment. I did some research, and it is, in fact, animal skin.

-Aerick

[Drax]

Himitsu,

Your questions are reasonable, I think, but appear to be merely critical, rather than objective. I'd prefer not to address these magnified, insignificant issues.

If you persist and feel these are paramount, however, I'll answer.

Then, it is clear I won't dissuade you from your opinion, until you open yourself to the idea that we are, in fact, on the verge of something special. Call it a pinnacle or a cliff, either way we are on the verge of something new--the ability to maneuver between ours and the ethereal plane. In addition, our scholars may yet find even greater things with this ability.

Both the pinnacle and the cliff require a "leap" of faith. I base mine upon the good will of mystics, not that of Tenebrion. This is though he has never shown me ill will, nor any exile I know, personally. In my mind, he is simply a means for us, as we are to him.

I encourage all to join me in supporting the mystic guild. Yes, there may be risk involved. The reward, however, may be far greater.

-Drax

[Delirium]

Nai Aerick, you are thinking of papyrus, which is made of reeds. Vellum is parchment of particularly high quality, and both are made of animal skin.

The fact that Drax considers Tenebrion's preference in materials for book-making a "small thing," reminds me that not all here are exiled for political reasons or come here of their own will.

I may consider Lundar a fool, but he at least recognizes the severity of the crimes of which I suspect Tenebrion is guilty. Also, while Lundar reports on the raid of the orga, he makes no claim to having led it. In fact, he cites the leadership of K'pyn. He also reports on a subsequent raid by ELF into HH, in which I took part. He did not lead that either. Note that I am willing to work with Lundar if I think it is in the interests of Puddleby, as demonstrated by my participation in the ELF hunt. He and I have a major disagreement over what those interests are with respect to Tenebrion.

-Delirium

[Drablak]

OOC

Himi, your post seems to be part IC and OOC, which is it?

The fact that Tenebrion's emissary was killed while he could have made him invinceble, for example, is metagaming thinking. I am not sure what the IC part of that is. IC, he did send an emissary that was killed by exiles.

/END OOC

And I resent the fact that you say that no one got anything back from getting people to the ethereal trainer. All the information I have is on my scroll for anyone to read. And since Deli considers that escorting fighters to the trainers' groto is "in the interests of Puddleby", I don't see why escorting mystics to trainers is anything different.

[Lundar]

Himitsu writes:

<I>"As usual? Can you name an action of Full Mystic(s) that were done with the community's best interests that happened after the Ripture War?"</I>

Besides boosting, locating, scanning, openning illusions, tuning sunstones, and teleporting exiles, you mean? Or are you trying to imply that Mystics do not <I>always</I> act in the best interests of the community? If you are, then you are correct. Sometimes I act in the best interests of my clan, my Guild, my friends-- sometimes even myself! My apologies if this goes against your view of Mystics as public servants.

On the Orga raid:

During the time when the Orga were invading the East Field, I sensed that there was a greater disturbance within the Tangle Wood. I urged my fellow exiles to take the fight to the Orga, and led a small party into TW. The credit for the actual tactical leadership that helped us defeat the Orga would have to go to Sagramor and K'pyn, who managed to organize our unruly mob into a force to be reckoned with.

On Tenebrion and his books:

My point is simple; that the ownership of a book made of sylvan does not necessarily imply that one helped in its creation. I merely wished to squelch the rumor that Tenebrion was a "mass-murderer" before it spread, and harmed the effort to collect stones for the 'Brions.

-Lundar<P>

[Drax]

Delirium,

Please do not be too hasty in your presumptions. I don't offer summary of your state of mind or life history---I'd kindly appreciate it, if you were to refrain from offering that of mine.

Reserve that for when you get to know me better, should you choose to open your mind and soul. ;)

-Drax

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Drablak
OOC

Himi, your post seems to be part IC and OOC, which is it?

The fact that Tenebrion's emissary was killed while he could have made him invinceble, for example, is metagaming thinking. I am not sure what the IC part of that is. IC, he did send an emissary that was killed by exiles.

/END OOC


There's nothing OOC about my post at all. There's a particular magic about the Lok'Groton island chain that makes it so that no exile can harm another unless they are in places where that magic has been removed (Arena, Badlands). Tenebrion made a servent to go to Puddleby and speak with us exiles that was not touched by this magic and I think that it was deliberate on Tenebrion's part. It takes effort to be immune to that magic since everyone who comes here is affected by it and so I don't think it was an accident.

I have no idea what metagaming thinking is. Is that a fancy way of saying that you think I was being OOC?

And I resent the fact that you say that no one got anything back from getting people to the ethereal trainer. All the information I have is on my scroll for anyone to read. And since Deli considers that escorting fighters to the trainers' groto is "in the interests of Puddleby", I don't see why escorting mystics to trainers is anything different.

Your ethereal knowledge is most interesting and that might help us out when or if we make further studies of the Ethereal Plane but I don't think it's helped us out already. I can't remember a time when I benefited by knowing the current status of ether or if I ever needed to know this. If anyone else has, I'd like to know who and when and why it happened. Basically, the knowledge is good to know and I train with the Ethereal trainers because it might be useful someday but I don't think it has so far.

Plus, using metal which has become scarce lately into making Ethereal Amulets takes them away from making chains and chains are definitely more useful than Ethereal Amulets.

As to the trainers in the Trainers' Groto. I believe Delirium helped take fighters to get Rodnus training which is in the interests of Puddleby because those fighters are training to be easier to heal and in tough battles, every second counts. If you have a fighter with 200-300 Histia and they're bricking some tough beast, you definitely don't want them falling since that can put the entire team or town into jeopardy.

I'm not saying that the ethereal knowledge won't be useful someday but that it hasn't so far as opposed to the benefit of getting 4th-circle+ fighters to the Rodnus training.

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Lundar
Himitsu writes:

<I>"As usual? Can you name an action of Full Mystic(s) that were done with the community's best interests that happened after the Ripture War?"</I>

Besides boosting, locating, scanning, openning illusions, tuning sunstones, and teleporting exiles, you mean? Or are you trying to imply that Mystics do not <I>always</I> act in the best interests of the community? If you are, then you are correct. Sometimes I act in the best interests of my clan, my Guild, my friends-- sometimes even myself! My apologies if this goes against your view of Mystics as public servants.

Acting in the best interests of people or organizations other than Puddleby doesn't always mean acting against Puddleby. For example, let's say you're on a clan hunt and you hear of a raid of vermine in town and that exiles are defending Puddleby by attacking them. You're right now somewhere far away and you decide to not go back because you'd rather continue on your clan hunt instead. In this case, you are acting in your own self-interests but not harming Puddleby because vermine are a minor threat and Puddleby is in good hands. Now let's say this same scenario but Puddleby is being attacked by something stronger and the exiles present are losing ground and many lie fallen, too weak to kill what invaded. You decide to not go back to town because you figure someone else will come help. No one did and the invaders destroyed an important building before leaving. This would also be in your own self-interests but it's harmful against Puddleby. Oddly enough, it seems it's possible to be both selfish and selflish at the same time or maybe this is just a case of balancing what you want with what is right or good and determining which is the better course of action to take.

In my original post, I wasn't saying that mystics don't do anything in the best interests of Puddleby but wondering about Drax's assertion that mystics do everything in the best interests of Puddleby.


On the Orga raid:

During the time when the Orga were invading the East Field, I sensed that there was a greater disturbance within the Tangle Wood. I urged my fellow exiles to take the fight to the Orga, and led a small party into TW. The credit for the actual tactical leadership that helped us defeat the Orga would have to go to Sagramor and K'pyn, who managed to organize our unruly mob into a force to be reckoned with.

I just found your new scrolls and am impressed with you convincing others to take the fight on to the home of the orga and in getting so many to come. That's most impressive indeed. What I found interesting is why didn't the Orga follow you to where the friendly orga was pushing you? That snell seemed relatively safe and empty. How was this possible? This is certainly an interesting event and maybe we'll find the reason why it happened in the future.

I also liked Deadmeat's quote: "If the other orga knew what he was up to, they'd totally kick his ass."

On Tenebrion and his books:

My point is simple; that the ownership of a book made of sylvan does not necessarily imply that one helped in its creation. I merely wished to squelch the rumor that Tenebrion was a "mass-murderer" before it spread, and harmed the effort to collect stones for the 'Brions.

You're correct, and one possibility would be if Tenebrion bought the books from an antique dealer or found the books since the books would have been made in the past and Tenebrion would have nothing to do with it. If knowledge is to be gained then it must be preserved, although I would like better ways to go about doing it.

If, on the other hand, Tenebrion bought the books from someone who made them then he's indirectly involved because buying a product encourages more of that product to be made. Or if Tenebrion bought the blank books and wrote in it himself or if Tenebrion made the books himself or created a slave to make them then he's directly involved in getting Sylvan skin from some source to make the books.

In our attempt to not say Tenebrion is guilty before having all of the facts, let's make certain to not say Tenebrion is innocent before having all of the facts. Let's just be cautious as he may be guilty and it's always good to be wary since that saves your own skin more often than not.

P.S. I just realized that was a bad pun. :eek:

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Himitsu
There's nothing OOC about my post at all. There's a particular magic about the Lok'Groton island chain that makes it so that no exile can harm another unless they are in places where that magic has been removed (Arena, Badlands). Tenebrion made a servent to go to Puddleby and speak with us exiles that was not touched by this magic and I think that it was deliberate on Tenebrion's part. It takes effort to be immune to that magic since everyone who comes here is affected by it and so I don't think it was an accident.

I have no idea what metagaming thinking is. Is that a fancy way of saying that you think I was being OOC?
You are in error, none of the Brion are exiles. They were not sent here by the mad emperor. They do not have the ability to depart as we do, and it's one of the reason they are interested in learning from us. They claim that they were here long before "exiles" started coming here. They say that the fact that we can come to these lands came as a result of their "protection spells" weakening, something that started after the appearance of the south forest mirror. They do not know what caused it. So, every brother can be harmed and that is why they fear to travel among us, and why they have these elaborate conference rooms where you can't reach them.

metagame is an expression that means that you draw conclusion from knowledge of the game itself, or the game mechanic. In AD&D for example, a fighter jumping off a cliff because he knows it's 1d6/10 feet and he has 82 hp so he can't die is metagaming, as opposed to RP. There is a difference (although a subtle one) with OOC in the sense that the fighter jumping the cliff isn't being OOC, but his action comes from the player thinking in terms OOC. In this case, your knowledge that the GM could have made the emisary invincible made you beleive that he was ment to be killed, [I]or so I though.

[Bob the Archer]

So Tenebrion says the book is made out of Sylvian skin. And you believe him? Is he so totally trustworthy? Has he no history of making claims made to rile us?
Has anyone examined the book?

Besides, (looks carefully first) that's no skin off my back *evil grin*

[Lundar]

Himitsu writes:

<I>"Acting in the best interests of people or organizations other than Puddleby doesn't always mean acting against Puddleby."</I>

<I>"In my original post, I wasn't saying that mystics don't do anything in the best interests of Puddleby but wondering about Drax's assertion that mystics do everything in the best interests of Puddleby."</I>

I don't think that was what Drax was implying, but to reiterate, Mystics act in the best interests of their friends/Guild/self just like everyone else does. On the issue of the Ethereal Portal though, I believe this is something that will benefit all exiles-- fighters, healers, and mystics alike, and improve our relations with the 'Brions.

<I>"I just found your new scrolls and am impressed with you convincing others to take the fight on to the home of the orga and in getting so many to come. That's most impressive indeed."</I>

Don't make me sound like a hero :p Getting people to fight the orga is as simple as SSing "Massive orga raid in TW!" ;)

<I>"What I found interesting is why didn't the Orga follow you to where the friendly orga was pushing you? That snell seemed relatively safe and empty. How was this possible?"</I>

They could have just been trying to keep exiles away from whatever they were doing in OC. Who knows?

<I>"In our attempt to not say Tenebrion is guilty before having all of the facts, let's make certain to not say Tenebrion is innocent before having all of the facts. Let's just be cautious as he may be guilty and it's always good to be wary since that saves your own skin more often than not."</I>

Exactly.

-Lundar<P>

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Drablak
You are in error, none of the Brion are exiles. They were not sent here by the mad emperor. They do not have the ability to depart as we do, and it's one of the reason they are interested in learning from us. They claim that they were here long before "exiles" started coming here. They say that the fact that we can come to these lands came as a result of their "protection spells" weakening, something that started after the appearance of the south forest mirror. They do not know what caused it. So, every brother can be harmed and that is why they fear to travel among us, and why they have these elaborate conference rooms where you can't reach them.

Where do you get this information from and is it referenced anywhere? I'd like to read more about the Brions since it seems my knowledge is lacking. I knew most of what you said but not about their protection spells or them weakening after the mirror appeared since that's been there for a long time.

What you said makes it seem that this magic is applied to each of us exiles as sort of a magical ward while I thought this magic applied to all of the Lok'Groton islands.

Still, I am to believe that the Brions can hide an entire island chain but they can't figure out that their emissary's life is in danger and sent him to the middle of town without some sort of protection? That doesn't sound very smart to me.

metagame is an expression that means that you draw conclusion from knowledge of the game itself, or the game mechanic. In AD&D for example, a fighter jumping off a cliff because he knows it's 1d6/10 feet and he has 82 hp so he can't die is metagaming, as opposed to RP. There is a difference (although a subtle one) with OOC in the sense that the fighter jumping the cliff isn't being OOC, but his action comes from the player thinking in terms OOC. In this case, your knowledge that the GM could have made the emisary invincible made you beleive that he was ment to be killed, [I]or so I though.

If I was going to talk about GMs or gods then I would have used an OOC tag and done it without trying to hide it in IC terms. We both know the GMs could have made the emissary invincible but he wasn't for a reason, at least I think there was a reason. Maybe this reason was IC or maybe the GM wanted the emissary to be killed and he was sure that someone would do it or maybe he thought the killing was only a possibility and wanted the exiles to decide what happened on their own and making the emissary invincible would have removed that. Or maybe there's a good reason why Tenebrion didn't put any protection on the emissary, maybe it was a test to see how trustworthy were are. I'm not going to speculate on OOC reasons when not even the IC reasons are clear to me and that's what is really important in the end. Whatever the reason, if I'm IC I'm totally IC and if I want to be OOC I'll use the OOC tag or post in the ooc area.

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Lundar
I don't think that was what Drax was implying, but to reiterate, Mystics act in the best interests of their friends/Guild/self just like everyone else does. On the issue of the Ethereal Portal though, I believe this is something that will benefit all exiles-- fighters, healers, and mystics alike, and improve our relations with the 'Brions.

It was when he said "as usual" that frosted me. I agree that mystics act for a variety of reasons and not all of them are for the betterment of Puddleby's society necessarily, either on purpose or on accident. I thought that by him explaining how mystics helped the community he'd say that there were times when mystics didn't.

Don't make me sound like a hero :p Getting people to fight the orga is as simple as SSing "Massive orga raid in TW!" ;)

If you had a bad reputation, some might not have listened or believed you. I know that if some said the same thing, I wouldn't believe them at first.

[Lundar]

Himitsu writes:

<I>"As to the trainers in the Trainers' Groto. I believe Delirium helped take fighters to get Rodnus training which is in the interests of Puddleby because those fighters are training to be easier to heal and in tough battles, every second counts."</I>

Don't be too quick to judge what's "in the best interests of Puddleby" or "in the best interest of the community." Often when I find someone using that phrase, what they truly mean is "everyone in the community-- except the people I don't like" or "besides mystics" or whatever. Our "community" is made up of a diverse range of exiles; from heroes and criminals, scholars and idiots, young and old. Few actions are truly in the best interests of everyone, and few people consider all the consequences of their actions before acting.

Was Delirium truly thinking: "I will help ELF reach the Trainer's Grotto because it is in the best interests of the community!"? More likely her reasons were something like: "Yes, I will help ELF because they are a nice clan" or "Because I want to go on a fun hunt to Hatred's Hollow" or "Because I'm bored and have nothing better to do" or whatever.

As for helping mystics reach Ethereal trainers, the results of their research may not immediately benefit the public at large, but it's certainly something which is in the interests of the mystics involved. Remember-- mystics are a part of the "community" too.

-Lundar<P>

[Mjollnir]

Originally posted by Drablak
[B][IC] You are in error, none of the Brion are exiles. They were not sent here by the mad emperor. They do not have the ability to depart as we do, and it's one of the reason they are interested in learning from us. They claim that they were here long before "exiles" started coming here. They say that the fact that we can come to these lands came as a result of their "protection spells" weakening, something that started after the appearance of the south forest mirror. They do not know what caused it. So, every brother can be harmed and that is why they fear to travel among us, and why they have these elaborate conference rooms where you can't reach them.



What makes you think that departing is an ability available only to exiles? We were sent here as criminals by a deranged Emperor do you really think he would provide spells of protection to stop us from dying?
Frankly im surprised we havent seen a shipment of Mobius' sentinals attacking town trying to clear space for him to send new exiles here.

Doesnt departing have something to do with the fact that we have a purgatory here? what miracle made it I couldnt say but its a fact, without that we would fall and stay down.
And as such id say that anybody in this island chain can depart and the Brions dont travel amoungst us for their own reasons, especially if they have spells that prevent exiles from harming them like they use on some of their slaves.
Sarir has been seen in town on more than one occasion and he hasnt been able to be harmed.

Also the brions have shown that they already have some knowledge of teleportation, if they got into real trouble they could use their magic to kill us all or teleport away, both Umbrion and Melabrion have shown the ability and even the willingness to kill exiles.

Case in point Slyph Vs Umbrion who fried her to PND for refusing to give up a Kyuem part, and Melabrion Vs Nunul who repeatedly killed him for having the cheek to sleep in his conference room.

As for their conference rooms who ever said they were for giving us conferences? they were here long before us and their keeps are ages old most likely they gave conferences to their slaves and servents much like a King holding court.

[Drax]

Originally posted by Himitsu


It was when he said "as usual" that frosted me. I agree that mystics act for a variety of reasons and not all of them are for the betterment of Puddleby's society necessarily, either on purpose or on accident. I thought that by him explaining how mystics helped the community he'd say that there were times when mystics didn't.





Himitsu,

To clarify, I said "as usual" to assert my opinion, that mystics typically act in the best interests of the community. Certainly, there are those that do and those that do not. By and large, however, they are fine citizens. In fact, I'd consider them pillars of our community.

This concept is important, because this is how I base my opinion on the trade. Tenebrion's use of the stones is not important to me, today. The fact that mystics 1) want to trade, and 2) usually have the best interests of our community in mind, is enough for me, personally. Add to that, that the emergence of this new technology will give new "dimension" to the community as a whole, the deal is made especially appealing.

Tenebrion's intentions are not my concern. I'll not speculate on his motives, other than they are in his best interest, not necessarily our community.

Then again, are yours, or mine?

[;)]


-Drax

[Fist of Fluff]

Got a question about Ethereal training...

Just what benefit does it have to anyone, Mystic or otherwise? I'm not being sarcastic, I just don't know. What does it mean if one area has a higher amount of Ether than another? Does anyone actually know?

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Mjollnir
What makes you think that departing is an ability available only to exiles?What makes you think departing is an ability available to everyone?We were sent here as criminals by a deranged Emperor do you really think he would provide spells of protection to stop us from dying?What makes you think that it's an ability provided by the Emperor? It may be a byproduct of our exile. I am not sure we are even in the same plane as the Emperor anymore, maybe by 'crossing' we gain that ability.Frankly im surprised we havent seen a shipment of Mobius' sentinals attacking town trying to clear space for him to send new exiles here.What the hell do you mean?Doesnt departing have something to do with the fact that we have a purgatory here?Yes it does, what's your point? what miracle made it I couldnt say but its a fact, without that we would fall and stay down.Quite true, and the Brion tell us there is a danger to purgatory and that we need ethereal knowledge to prevent it.And as such id say that anybody in this island chain can departYou assume that because there is a purgatory, everyone can depart to it? What makes you think that? Do you see orga fall and then depart? Because there are purg pendant everyone can use one to teleport to purg? isn't that the same reasoning you use? and the Brions dont travel amoungst us for their own reasons, especially if they have spells that prevent exiles from harming them like they use on some of their slaves.It seems some of their slaves can be harmed, and other cannot, it may not be something that the Brion control though.Sarir has been seen in town on more than one occasion and he hasnt been able to be harmed.Sarir also claims to be en enslaved race, while the Brion claim to 'create' them/it. I am not sure what you think the fact that he couldn't be harmed proves.Also the brions have shown that they already have some knowledge of teleportation, if they got into real trouble they could use their magic to kill us all or teleport away, both Umbrion and Melabrion have shown the ability and even the willingness to kill exiles.You assume many things. Maybe they can do these things while in their keep where they have the devices that let them to these things? Maybe they couldn't do them in town center? Every Brion has a crystal room with a kuyem and (most of them) with a mirror. All devices that they use to travel the planes. The crystal room for instance represents a constellation (from the earth sphere) that is stationary above the Lok'Groton island chain and that we beleive is used as a beacon to guide plane travel (as a means to know where to return).
It's not because you can teleport in some circumstances that you have the ability to do anything. Purg pendants teleport to purgatory, for instance, but they don't let you go to the astral plane.Case in point Slyph Vs Umbrion who fried her to PND for refusing to give up a Kyuem part, and Melabrion Vs Nunul who repeatedly killed him for having the cheek to sleep in his conference room.Again, it doesn't mean that they could do that in town center. The drake that lived near south pass could fry most exiles that went to see him in east forest, yet he was killed when he showed up in town.As for their conference rooms who ever said they were for giving us conferences?Yes, whoever said that? I didn't. But they have conversations there. they were here long before us and their keeps are ages old most likely they gave conferences to their slaves and servents much like a King holding court.Actually, the general theory is that they mostly use these rooms when they meet their brothers, hence the fire circle where all the conf rooms are accessible. I don't see your point.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Fist of Fluff
Got a question about Ethereal training...

Just what benefit does it have to anyone, Mystic or otherwise? I'm not being sarcastic, I just don't know. What does it mean if one area has a higher amount of Ether than another? Does anyone actually know? Well, there are two issues that I see. First, there is supposed to be a danger to purgatory, caused by things like exiles departing from the EP and Abyss. There is a leak of ether towards purg and it may be a 'bad thing'. One way to fix that could be to build a kuyem inside purg to plug the leak. The other issue is possible use of portals to travel more quickly to certain areas. To build a portal you need ethereal knowledge, or so we think. For example, I think you need to use a kuyem to power the portal, and a kuyem must be build in a steady flow of ether.
I'd say both of these issues are of interest to everyone. Then there is exploration of the Ethereal plane, which could be helped by ethereal knowledge too. I can determine in which sphere (out of nine) I am for instance. I may be able to open some of the 'dense ether' spots that we beleive are passageways to higher spheres of the EP.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Himitsu
Where do you get this information from and is it referenced anywhere? I'd like to read more about the Brions since it seems my knowledge is lacking. I knew most of what you said but not about their protection spells or them weakening after the mirror appeared since that's been there for a long time.Most of the knowledge about the Brions comes from Babajaga scroll on them. I think that the bit about the protective spell you can read in my conversation with Tenebrion. It's in my scroll and has been for some time. If it's not in that conversation then it's in one of Babajaga's scrolls. You can come and talk to me if you are interested in talking about these things Himi, I am always happy to talk :)

[Aravir]

Originally posted by Drablak
Sarir also claims to be en enslaved race, while the Brion claim to 'create' them/it. I am not sure what you think the fact that he couldn't be harmed proves.

I believe Mjollnir was referring to Himitsu's point (made in response to Drax) that the Brions could have send an emissary who couldn't be hurt if they really wanted to. It was towards the beginning of this discussion.

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Drablak
there is supposed to be a danger to purgatory, caused by things like exiles departing from the EP and Abyss. There is a leak of ether towards purg and it may be a 'bad thing'.

I'm sorta alongside FoF here.
I'm clueless as to what "ether" could do as harm. Have we any knowledge of ether being dangerous outside of what heresay we've gotten from the brions?

We have had invasions of ether critters for sure...but who's to say how they got to town? With the prior attacks sent by the brions consisting of Darshak and kniggits, AND their apparent control over entrances/exits of EP, its not so large a jump to suspect the EP critter invasions were sent/enabled-by the brions themselves.

As far as departs from EP/Abyss harming Purgatory, what proof have we got? The questionable word of the brions?

100% of my experience with "rifts" created by large amounts of ether was when the Puddleby-Pie-Contest/Babajaga-Wedding occurred.
A rift opened...no critters came jumping out however. I fell that day, because of my numbskulled curiosity of what lie beyond the rift.

-Sticky Dorf

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Drablak
What makes you think departing is an ability available to everyone?What makes you think that it's an ability provided by the Emperor? It may be a byproduct of our exile. I am not sure we are even in the same plane as the Emperor anymore, maybe by 'crossing' we gain that ability.

This depends on how we gained these abilities to not hurt each other and to depart. My theory is that there is a magic placed on these island chains, whether we're on the same planet as our original one or not. Simply being on these island chains gives us these abilities and I have doubts that Mobius was the one who gave us these abilities or created Purgatory. This is why I believe that Tenebrion had to purposely remove this magic from the emissary he sent because simply by existing on these island chains grants you these magical protection. So Sarir, who may be created by Tenebrion, is at least protected from getting hurt by the other exiles so I think Tenebrion didn't bother to remove the magical protections which I think he did when he sent his emissary.

Of course, this is all a theory based on an assumption but it does fit in with my observations. Regardless of the abilities of the Brions, I think Tenebrion could have done more to protect his emissary either through magical means or by putting a gate around him if he wanted to or believed there was potential danger to him.

[Mjollnir]

Originally posted by Drablak
[B]What makes you think departing is an ability available to everyone?

Alright ill admit that i have no proof that everybody can depart, but that depends on your definition of everybody.
If by everybody you mean the population of puddleby then its pretty conclusive that everybody has the ability.
If by everybody you mean every living creature then its pretty safe to say that everybody cant, unless each type of creature has its own alter (we think the orga do for one)
When i say everybody i only included the 7 races with higher brain functions who can think and reason for themsleves.
The brion brothers have been identified as Sylvans (although that hasnt come up in the discussions about sylvan skin books) and there is no reason to believe that those 6 sylvans should be any different from all us other sylvans.

What makes you think that it's an ability provided by the Emperor? It may be a byproduct of our exile.

I never said it was provided by the Emporer infact i said that it couldnt be as he would not care one way or the other if we survive our exile.
This was just an alternative to assuming that it was an inherent ability to these islands.
The only reason i brought it up was because you stated that the brions had not been sent here by the mad Emporer, why should that have anything to do with an ability like departing?


I am not sure we are even in the same plane as the Emperor anymore, maybe by 'crossing' we gain that ability.

There has been no evidence of people crossing planes back on the main land so its pretty safe to guess everybody there exists on the same plane.

I said

Frankly im surprised we havent seen a shipment of Mobius' sentinals attacking town trying to clear space for him to send new exiles here.

To which Drablak replied
What the hell do you mean?

This was mainly a sarcastic comment it didnt mean anything except that you would have thought that the equivalent of a jailor would have appeared to check the conditions of our prison.
If one of Mobius' spies were to report that we are thriving here you would have thought he would have taken steps after all we were sent here to be punished.


I asked
Doesnt departing have something to do with the fact that we have a purgatory here?

Drablak replied
Yes it does, what's your point?

My point is that if its a function of purgatory rather than some ability in the exiles themselves is that there is no logical reason why it shouldnt work for everybody.

You assume that because there is a purgatory, everyone can depart to it?

Everybody with the consious will to live rather than just the instinct.

Do you see orga fall and then depart?

Who says they dont? just because they dont travel through the same area of purgatory as us doesnt mean that they dont use it, they would come out at their local alter possably in the orga fortress or at some other secret site.
Just because we dont see a ring of blue sparkles appear around them doesnt mean they arnt departing, those bodies dissapear very quickly.
It may be we see the sparkles around exiles because we are attuned to seeing them as a depart occurs, there is nothing to guarentee that it should happen the same way to the orga, if it did they might come out in the same place in purgatory as us.

Because there are purg pendant everyone can use one to teleport to purg? isn't that the same reasoning you use?

Where did I say that? but yes i think if a fighter could get into the 4th circle room in the healer temple they might be able to teleport to purg. Its only because they are stopped from reaching the trainer that they cant use them just like the 3rrd circle healers and below, are you saying that there is some mystical ability to use them confered on everybody who passes through the doors of the 4th circle room?


It seems some of their slaves can be harmed, and other cannot, it may not be something that the Brion control though.Sarir also claims to be en enslaved race, while the Brion claim to 'create' them/it. I am not sure what you think the fact that he couldn't be harmed proves.

I believe that it proves that the brions have the ability to confer invulnerability onto one of their slaves but perhaps this is a time or energy consuming process that they cant afford to use it for every trifling little matter or on great numbers of creatures.
The Brions must have limits on their powers just like the healers and mystics have on theirs, if they didnt they wouldnt neeed us to get them things like the orga stones, they could simply obliterate anybody or anything that stood in their path.
Mystics only receive an orga stone if they are deemed worthy by the person who hands them out, do you think that if the brions had limitless power they couldnt force him to hand them over, if they even needed them at all.


Maybe they can do these things while in their keep where they have the devices that let them to these things?

At this point i have to wholehartedly agree with you, you have just pointed out why they dont travel in town and it isnt because they are afraid of us.
It could be because they draw their power from the ether and the kyeums and crystals and mirrors are all ways of channeling and focusing that power.


It's not because you can teleport in some circumstances that you have the ability to do anything.

Again I never said that they did but just as an exile who is attempting to travel to a new or dangerous area will take the right tools the brions would almost certainly come prepared.
They could carry an Ethereal portal stone with them and use that to open up a means of escape. They have shown to be masters of ether and they do travel the ethereal plane. a Brion might choose to risk traveling through an unanchored portal rather than stay and surely be beaten by a mob af angry exiles.

This is all speculation no exile, not even the ones who serve the brions can say with all that certainty why they do what they do.

The drake that lived near south pass could fry most exiles that went to see him in east forest, yet he was killed when he showed up in town.

Chances are he would have set up his lair in the place that made him most powerful, there could be some relic hidden in his cave that made him stronger while in its ambiance (nobody has been able to climb up into it and see what sort of treasures he hid there) or It could be the case that there is something in the area of town that weakened him, perhaps the mere presence of our Alter drained his powers, who knows?


Yes, whoever said that? I didn't.

Sorry i misinterpreted yoru statement about the conference rooms as a question asking why they wernt easily accessable.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Mjollnir
Alright ill admit that i have no proof that everybody can depart, but that depends on your definition of everybody.That was in direct answer to your question as to why I thought departing could be an ability restricted to exiles. So it's your definition of everyone that coun't.The brion brothers have been identified as Sylvans (although that hasnt come up in the discussions about sylvan skin books) and there is no reason to believe that those 6 sylvans should be any different from all us other sylvans.That isn't true at all, have you ever met a Brion? This is what you get when you /info one" Tenebrion has not disclosed his race, is male, is a Fighter, and is not wearing the symbol of any clan. He is holding a dagger, and he is wearing a catsbane necklace and a cloak. Tenebrion has 1 good karma.
. The Brions aren't sylvans.I never said it was provided by the Emporer infact i said that it couldnt be as he would not care one way or the other if we survive our exile.Sorry, my mistake.The only reason i brought it up was because you stated that the brions had not been sent here by the mad Emporer, why should that have anything to do with an ability like departing?I was answering Himitsu's remark that there is something magical about these islands, and she thinks it applies to (her definition of) everyone. I presented an alternative theory that it is something that comes from our (traumatic) exprience of being exiled. It may well be linked to this event (being exiled). Why didn't the winged centaur depart? I am not saying that they tell the truth, but the Brion did say that they don't have the ability to depart.There has been no evidence of people crossing planes back on the main land so its pretty safe to guess everybody there exists on the same plane.I was saying that Puddleby and the islands on which it is build may not be on the same plane as the place where the Emperor lives. It has no relevance to the fact that people in the mainland did not travel the planes, a fact that would be difficult to prove anyway. For all we know, when the Emperor exiles someone he may throw him into a "horrible black void" thinking he disposes of that troublesome individual, unknowing that we end up here. It isn't very clear how we just appear in temple. IMO.My point is that if its a function of purgatory rather than some ability in the exiles themselves is that there is no logical reason why it shouldnt work for everybody.The reverse is also true. But I can at least mention an observation in favor of my pov: when we first arrive here, we appear in temple, just as if we had departed. That seems to link our arrival with purg in some way. What if people that did not arrive by that means aren't linked to it as we are? None of the Brion have been exiled, they did not come here the same way we did, and they didn't appear in front of the altar either. So there is no proof either way, but I, personally, think it's very likely that departing isn't a universal ability.Everybody with the consious will to live rather than just the instinct.That's as good a definition as any, yet I think that the Centaurs, winged or not, have shown to have higher brain functions, as you said, and Falineas certainly has a will, yet all her race disappeared.Who says they dont? just because they dont travel through the same area of purgatory as us doesnt mean that they dont use it, they would come out at their local alter possably in the orga fortress or at some other secret site.Granted.Just because we dont see a ring of blue sparkles appear around them doesnt mean they arnt departing, those bodies dissapear very quickly.Granted too.Where did I say that?You said that they can teleport so they should be able to teleport away in case of danger. I replied with an example that it's not because you can teleport in some circumstances, that you can do it at will and wherever you want.I believe that it proves that the brions have the ability to confer invulnerability onto one of their slaves Not if the Sarir tells the truth that they are an enslaved race, in which case their ability to "not be harmed" could simply be an inate ability to that race.At this point i have to wholehartedly agree with you, you have just pointed out why they dont travel in town and it isnt because they are afraid of us.I did not say it isn't because they are afraid of us. I gave a possible explanation as to why they have powers when in their keep that you and others beleive would make them invincible in town. In any case, the Brions did say that the reason they do not come to town is that they are afraid. As with everthing they say, you can shoose to beleive them or not.They could carry an Ethereal portal stone with them and use that to open up a means of escape. They have shown to be masters of ether and they do travel the ethereal plane. a Brion might choose to risk traveling through an unanchored portal rather than stay and surely be beaten by a mob af angry exiles.I am not sure you have seen such a device used. I don't think a lone Brion in town center would have a chance to escape through a portal created by a portal stone. Opinions may vary.Chances are he would have set up his lair in the place that made him most powerful, there could be some relic hidden in his cave that made him stronger while in its ambiance (nobody has been able to climb up into it and see what sort of treasures he hid there) or It could be the case that there is something in the area of town that weakened him, perhaps the mere presence of our Alter drained his powers, who knows?Yes, exactly. All arguments also valid for the Brions and their emissaries.Sorry i misinterpreted yoru statement about the conference rooms as a question asking why they wernt easily accessable.No problem.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Nunul
I'm sorta alongside FoF here.FoF did not present a POV, Nunul, he asked a question.I'm clueless as to what "ether" could do as harm. Have we any knowledge of ether being dangerous outside of what heresay we've gotten from the brions?Ether isn't dangerous in itself, or else we'd all be dead (since it's everywhere). A concentrated flow of ether may harm someone. I know from experience that a burst of ether can kill everyone in a radius of 10 exiles, and most of them would require Koric or Lorikeet to raise.
To corroborate the theory of damage to purg we have a few observations. Increased number of critters in purg, the problems healers had at one point with their purg pendant. I have directly observed flow of ether from EP to purg. All circumstancial evidance though. Yet, would anyone be willing to take a chance to lose purgatory?
Or, to answer your question in another way: no, Nunul, it should not alter your ability to coinwhore, so don't worry about it [;)]

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Himitsu


This depends on how we gained these abilities to not hurt each other and to depart. My theory is that there is a magic placed on these island chains, whether we're on the same planet as our original one or not. Simply being on these island chains gives us these abilities and I have doubts that Mobius was the one who gave us these abilities or created Purgatory. This is why I believe that Tenebrion had to purposely remove this magic from the emissary he sent because simply by existing on these island chains grants you these magical protection. So Sarir, who may be created by Tenebrion, is at least protected from getting hurt by the other exiles so I think Tenebrion didn't bother to remove the magical protections which I think he did when he sent his emissary.

Of course, this is all a theory based on an assumption but it does fit in with my observations. Regardless of the abilities of the Brions, I think Tenebrion could have done more to protect his emissary either through magical means or by putting a gate around him if he wanted to or believed there was potential danger to him. See my answer to Mjollnir. Why didn't the winged centaur depart? Why do the Brion pretend they can't depart? What could they gain by pretending that? And I don't think they are as powerful as they want us to beleive either.

[Aravir]

Drablak wrote:

That isn't true at all, have you ever met a Brion? This is what you get when you /info one" Tenebrion has not disclosed his race, is male, is a Fighter, and is not wearing the symbol of any clan. He is holding a dagger, and he is wearing a catsbane necklace and a cloak. Tenebrion has 1 good karma.
. The Brions aren't sylvans.

While Tenebrion isn't Sylvan now, he's said himself that he used to be. It's in this transcript (http://www.free-conversant.com/aravir/transcripts/tenebrion9autumn545) .

Why didn't the winged centaur depart?

What does she have to do with anything? And how do you know she never has?

(Skipping many things of dubious relevance.)

I did not say it isn't because they are afraid of us. I gave a possible explanation as to why they have powers when in their keep that you and others beleive would make them invincible in town. In any case, the Brions did say that the reason they do not come to town is that they are afraid.

That doesn't mean they're afraid of being killed. Maybe they just don't want to come to town because they expect that a horde of people would surround them pushing, shouting insults, and generally being really annoying?

[Lundar]

In response to:

<I>"What does she[Falinea] have to do with anything? And how do you know she never has [departed]?"</I>

Long ago, the race of Winged Centaurs were exterminated from Lok'Groton by the Orga. Presumably, if the only criteria for departing is a "conscious will to live" as Mjollnir suggests, then the Centaur would have simply departed, and escaped their destruction.

-Lundar<P>

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Aravir
While Tenebrion isn't Sylvan now, he's said himself that he used to be. It's in this transcript (http://www.free-conversant.com/aravir/transcripts/tenebrion9autumn545)Interesting, I didn't know that. I will read that transcript. Still, he isn't a sylvan now.What does she have to do with anything? And how do you know she never has?Where are you coming from? Did you read the posts? It's relevant because some people argue that "everyone" should be able to depart. Then there are arguments about who "everyone" is, some about higher brain functions. Winged centaur are intelligent creatures, so why shouldn't they have the ability to depart as we do? How do I know she never has? I don't, but all her race was killed by the orga, so I suppose that if they had the ability to depart, they would have. You know? As we do when we get slaughtered in OC, depart and come back to try again. Since all her race disappeared, I am guessing they could not do that.(Skipping many things of dubious relevance.)Wow, dubious relevance to whom? If you are to insult me, at least have the courtesy to point out what you mean.That doesn't mean they're afraid of being killed. Maybe they just don't want to come to town because they expect that a horde of people would surround them pushing, shouting insults, and generally being really annoying?I would think that they would have said it in a different manner if that was the reason, as in "I'd rather not go to town for fear of being insulted by people of dubious intelligence." The way I understood it, they are afraid for their lives, as in "You don't come to live so long by taking chances."

[Aravir]

Originally posted by Lundar
In response to:

<I>"What does she[Falinea] have to do with anything? And how do you know she never has [departed]?"</I>

Long ago, the race of Winged Centaurs were exterminated from Lok'Groton by the Orga. Presumably, if the only criteria for departing is a "conscious will to live" as Mjollnir suggests, then the Centaur would have simply departed, and escaped their destruction.

-Lundar<P>

Assuming that's what Drablak meant, there are two large problems with that theory.

First, it presumes that the Winged Centaur civilization was located in the Lok'Groton. While it may have been, the (little) information I've found only indicates they resided on an island someplace, not necessarily in this island chain.

Second, it presumes that the Winged Centaurs did not depart to escape destruction. Since nobody, including Falinea, knows what happened to them, there's no way to determine what they did or didn't do to escape.

And now, in an attempt to insert something of relevance to the topic...

Has anyone ever asked Falinea what she thinks of the Brions? She's lived here a while, and may have some useful information on their motives or actions.

[Delirium]

Lundar said:
My point is simple; that the ownership of a book made of sylvan does not necessarily imply that one helped in its creation. I merely wished to squelch the rumor that Tenebrion was a "mass-murderer" before it spread, and harmed the effort to collect stones for the 'Brions.

The operative word here is "squelch." This is nai mere rumor. It is a reasonable suspicion based on the available facts. It is only under the most innocent, and, I might add, unlikely set of circumstances that Tenebrion has no guilt. It seems far more likely that Tenebrion IS infact a mass murderer, through his hands or others.

In this case, it is not enough to dismiss the evidence by saying "It's not enough to convict Tenebrion." Would you leave your children in the care of a suspected child-killer? We are speaking here of giving great knowledge to one who might turn it against us. It is not enough to say that he would be found "not guilty" in a court of law where there was a presumption of innocence. In this case, Tenebrion must be proven innocent. If you could prove him innocent of the crimes I believe him to be guilty, then I would help you aquire the stones. However, until then I will continue to make my justified suspissions public. You will not simply "squelch" me.

Lundar also said:are you trying to imply that Mystics do not always act in the best interests of the community? If you are, then you are correct. Sometimes I act in the best interests of my clan, my Guild, my friends-- sometimes even myself! My apologies if this goes against your view of Mystics as public servants.

So in whose interests are Lundar and the rest of the mystic council acting? They claim to be acting in the interests of Puddleby, but I do not think I am alone in considering this exchange a betrayal of Puddleby. I have trouble believing someone such as Lundar , who seems generally honourable, could actively betray puddleby. I think he is simply being duped. Still, I wondered how he could turn a blind eye to the evidence and rationalize it away. All the more so, because I have been following the progress of Tenebrions's efforts to get a teleportation stone for some time (once again, I refer to my uploaded vision stones at http://www.windsofdawn.org/uploads.html (see the one called EtherStone.sit)) and previously Tenebrions offers seemed to be met with resistance and suspicion by the Mystics. When I spoke with Lundar in town the other day, though, he spoke of "profit" in the exchange - a word that took me so by surprise, I was led to openly wonder whether he had taken a bribe. He vehamently denied taking a bribe, and I am sure he was sincere in that he took no coin. However, I want to thank Drax for opening my eyes. He says:

Then, it is clear I won't dissuade you from your opinion, until you open yourself to the idea that we are, in fact, on the verge of something special. Call it a pinnacle or a cliff, either way we are on the verge of something new--the ability to maneuver between ours and the ethereal plane. In addition, our scholars may yet find even greater things with this ability.

What is more valuble to any mystic than coin? Knowledge! While the least honourable of Mystics has been known to sell out his own true love for coin, the more honest need a more powerful inducement to put aside their principles. The most honest, like Lundar, may even be doing it unconciously, rationalizing away the evidence against Tenebrion. Tenebrion has been trying to get an orga stone for more than five years. Over time his offers have gotten better and better. As the saying goes, everyone has their price. I had though it was just an issue of getting a door to the EP, but know I see that much more is involved. Enough so that some are willing to overlook that they are deling with someone who is, most likely, a mass murderer.

Finally, two more things.

First, my motives for helping with the ELF hunt seem to have become a subject of debate. I simply mentioned it to indicate that while Lundar and I may disagree strongly, to put it mildly, over the issue of the Brions and the Orga stones, we can still work together on other goals. I do enjoy helping people, which is partly why I became a healer, but I don't claim to be a saint. In point of fact, no mention of helping fighters get to the Grotto was made to me until well into the hunt, although had it been, I'd have been even more likely to say yei. I'd also be happy to help with any trip to get mystics to their trainers. But why did I accept then? In part, I was in the mood for a hunt. I was warned against hunting with ELF - "ELF hunts usually end in disaster!" a friend said. I considered that warning, but I figured that as a WG-opening pf and healer with a bit of horus, disaster was less likely if I were there. Also, I wanted the opportunity to get to know the ELF clan a little. I think Lundar may be the member I know best. As a sylvan myself, I would like to know more about this clan. I've made no secret of the fact that between the first thousand or so years of my life and my arrival in Puddleby,I seem to remember nothing. As it turned out, we were too busy to more than exchange pleasantries, and I never got the chance to ask any of them whether they had heard of my home city, Amon Deren Veleg. While the goal was not reached, and the tactics did not match the practiced precision of FB, neither did it end in disaster. I would not hesitate to hunt with ELF again.

Second, I have not been able to find Babajaga's diary. Someone seems to have taken it from the shelf in the library, along with all her clan's scrolls. Has anyone seen it?

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Lundar
In response to:

<I>"What does she[Falinea] have to do with anything? And how do you know she never has [departed]?"</I>

Long ago, the race of Winged Centaurs were exterminated from Lok'Groton by the Orga. Presumably, if the only criteria for departing is a "conscious will to live" as Mjollnir suggests, then the Centaur would have simply departed, and escaped their destruction.

How do you know the Winged Centaurs are all dead? Falinea just said that she can't find them and presumes they are all dead. Just because us exiles would depart and go back into battle, it's possible that the Winged Centaurs departed and decided to live somewhere where the Orga can't get them. It's a shame they can't contact Falinea but maybe there's a good reason for that.

Another possibility is that the Winged Centuars are all indeed dead but could have departed but just didn't know how to which would be a shame.

There's a lot we don't know and I do not presume to know much. As a mystic, one thing I've learned is that hiding information is as powerful as giving out the wrong information.

[Aravir]

Drablak wrote:

Wow, dubious relevance to whom?

Not to whom, to what. And the answer is, to the "Orga stone trade" discussion.

If you are to insult me, at least have the courtesy to point out what you mean.

Very well, if I should decide to insult you at some point I will be sure to point it out to you.

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Delirium
Second, I have not been able to find Babajaga's diary. Someone seems to have taken it from the shelf in the library, along with all her clan's scrolls. Has anyone seen it?

SWC Babajga has a journal at http://coldnsnowy.nomad-souls.org/ and she mentions moving to another city. That was on July 23, 2002 and no one has seen or heard from her for quite some time which causes Sleipnir to be very worried. Unfortunately, he seems to have left Clan Lord so the famous Slyph and the Slyphonics is dead too. And I never got to see them in action either. [:(]

[Drablak]

Not to whom, to what. And the answer is, to the "Orga stone trade" discussion.It's of dubious relevance only in your opinion. The discussion is about the possible motive of the Brion, and in this particular case, what ability they posess or not. Of a more general nature, it is relevant to know if they have been known to lie outright or not. They pretend not to be able to depart, people don't beleive them and say they should be able and present theories to support their pov. If you're not interested in the discussion, just don't participate.Very well, if I should decide to insult you at some point I will be sure to point it out to you.That's twice now.

[Drax]

Originally posted by Delirium


What is more valuble to any mystic than coin? Knowledge! While the least honourable of Mystics has been known to sell out his own true love for coin, the more honest need a more powerful inducement to put aside their principles.




Delirium,

Again dear passionate miss, I'm afraid you presume too much. You assert this is my understanding of the motives of mystics, which I clearly stated earlier, are not a concern of mine. Their motives are exactly that... theirs.

What you quoted was simply my opinion, not a summary of that of others.

In addition, you suggest that this deal results from an exception to the usually high standards of "more honest" mystics. Is it possible that you yourself might be mistaken about their motives, or in fact, their principles?

I suggest you re-examine that issue, and may even ask some of your more trusted, trustworthy mystic friends.

In the mean time... think you could lend a hand with this stone a my friend lost? I think he misplaced it, somewhere east of Tanglewood... [;)]

-Drax

[Delirium]

Drax,

I make nai presumptions about what you think the motives of mystics are. In your previous arguments, you have proven yourself to be of, at best, amoral charachter. You may not care to discover who is guilty of the murder of so many sylvans, but it is a question that matters greatly to me, and, as the primary suspects are Tenebrion and his brothers, it is a question of fundamental importance in this trade. Lundar at least recognizes the severity of the crime I suspect Tenebrion of, rather than simply dismiss it as you do.

Yi suggest I am mistaken about the motives and princilples of mystics. Do you mean to imply that they do not have puddleby's best interests at heart, for that is what your words seem to imply to me. And furthermore, how can you claim to know nothing of the motives of mystics and then turn around and say that I am mistaken about them. You can't have it both ways Drax. Either you don't know anything, and thus nothing you say in this argument is of relavence, or else your words seem to imply you do know something and have allied yourself with the mystic council. If you are acting as a lacky of the mystic council, I suggest to them that they reign you in, for your arguments so far have only strengthened my opposition to this trade. You should leave the debate to your betters, for Lundar argues far better than you.

As for consulting mystics, The full mystic I know best is Lundar. The mystic guild member I know best would be Himitsu, and she seems to share many of my missgivings about this trade.

Your devious mind has simply supplied a motive for why the mystic council might betray us all. You ment it as an argument for supporting the mystic guild, I know. Obviously, you failed to consider how an honest person might view that motive.

And nai, do not think I am easily tricked into aiding this trade.


-Delirium

[Lundar]

Delirium writes:

<I>"It is a reasonable suspicion based on the available facts. It is only under the most innocent, and, I might add, unlikely set of circumstances that Tenebrion has no guilt. It seems far more likely that Tenebrion IS infact a mass murderer, through his hands or others."</I>

...in your opinion. You entire argument seems to be:

Observation: Tenebrion has a library full of books made of skin, mostly sylvan.
Conclusion: Tenebrion must be a mass-murderer of sylvan babies!

I will not make such a leap in reasoning, especially taken with the contrary evidence that Tenebrion has stated that he had collected the books, and not created them himself. The fact that Tenebrion's owns books made of sylvan skin arouses in me the vaguest of suspicions, but not enough to deter me from supporting the trade with the 'Brions.

<I>"Would you leave your children in the care of a suspected child-killer? We are speaking here of giving great knowledge to one who might turn it against us."</I>

Nai, I would not leave my children(if I had any) with Tenebrion, but we are not discussing baby-sitting here, are we? ;) As for your second point, it is the 'Brions who are giving *us* the knowledge that could be turned against *them* in exchange for fragile teleportation stones, which we apparently have an infinite supply of.

<I>"So in whose interests are Lundar and the rest of the mystic council acting? They claim to be acting in the interests of Puddleby, but I do not think I am alone in considering this exchange a betrayal of Puddleby. I think [Lundar] is simply being duped."</I>

I will not presume to speak for the Council, but I believe that the deal will be beneficial for everyone:

1) Exiles will get a two-way permanent portal to the Etherel Plane, making hunting and exploration of the plane easier and safer.
2) Mystics will gain knowledge to create their own portals, which will help to further our explorations of EP as well as provide other possible uses.
3) The issue of teleportation stones has always been a sore spot between Puddleby-Brion relations, and providing the stones will greatly improve these relations.
4) If the 'Brions are successful in learning anything new about the stones, Mystics will be able to improve their currently limited teleportation skills.

I don't think anyone is being "duped" here. The benefits for supporting the trade are clear, as opposed to the vague "suspicions" of those who oppose it.

-Lundar<P>

[Mjolnir]

I was unaware of the story behind the winged centaurs nor did i think about them when i made my assumptions about departing having only ever heard vague tales of Falinea and never any background information.

As to why they are missing as Himitsu pointed out there is no evidence that they are dead just that Falinea cant find them perhaps they never built an alter of their own and so couldnt depart in which case they are dead or did depart and are still wandering around some forgotten level of purgatory looking for an exit, or maybe they departed and appeared in some other part of the world far way from Lok'grotan and have no idea how to get back.

There is no evidence of the centaur civilization anywhere on the explored islands so we have no way of knowing what happened to them.
Although being winged centaurs they could have lived on an island with no place to access it from the sea.
But if the case is they were destroyed by the orga it can be presumed that they lived somewhere on puddlebies main island since there is no evidence that orga build boats.
(Are the ruins in the foothills the last remains of the winged centaur city? perhaps Falinea should be invited along on a foothills raid to see if they offer some clues)

I thought that the brions were Sylvans (and as it turns out they were once) because they look like sylvans and i belive i saved some transcripts of converstaions with them where they were infoed and were said to be sylvan, ill have to check again.

As for departing I know 2 things for sure
1) it has something to do with the presence of a purgatory in these isles
2) the alters are involved

From this i can only conclude that it requires the presence of purgatory to be able to depart which would allow everybody to do it (seee earlier definitions of everybody)
And that it requires an alter to provide an exit to it.

Perhaps only people or creatures who build alters can sucessfully depart which might explain the dissapearence of the winged centaurs, that would be something to ask Falinea about next time she is seen.

(now to turn around and argue the opposite point)
Perhaps the brions are unable to depart because it was they who provided the ability and cannot cast the protective spells on themselves.
Melabrion has a gem that is powered by people departing, how do we know that they didnt manipulate the ether and form purgatory inorder to allow to depart and to draw power from it?

[This is pure speculation and shouldnt really be taken too seriously, its just another conspiracy theory]

Now as exiles become tougher as a group there is much less departing going on now than there used to be and the Brions arnt drawing asmuch power from them, reducing their powers and leading them to try and trade for powerful items from us.

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Drablak
FoF did not present a POV, Nunul, he asked a question. [;)]

FoF most certainly did. He (and I to an extent) have the point of view of exiles who need more data to form an opinion.

You believe you have enough data, and you have formed your opinion. Your PoV is of one who has enough data to form an opinion.

You will also note that I clearly did not state opinions in my post, merely the facts as I have experienced them. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Drablak
Or, to answer your question in another way: no, Nunul, it should not alter your ability to coinwhore, so don't worry about it [;)]

Hold off on answering me like I am Mike until I toss a few F-Bombs into my posts. :mad:

-Sticky Dorf

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Nunul
FoF most certainly did. He (and I to an extent) have the point of view of exiles who need more data to form an opinion.FoF said "what's the use of ether?" and you said "what proof do we have that ether is dangerous?" I took that as two separate things. FoF just ask the question with no 'observation' that would indicate his take on them. You list a series of couter-points. And you implied that FoF was of the same opinion as you while he did not express an opinion.You will also note that I clearly did not state opinions in my post, merely the facts as I have experienced them.I think you did state an opinion, or I perceived it like you did.Hold off on answering me like I am Mike until I toss a few F-Bombs into my posts. :mad:What? You think I would have winked at Mike while saying that? Lighten up you old sticky dorf! I was pulling your beard [:)]

[Drax]

Originally posted by Delirium

In your previous arguments, you have proven yourself to be of, at best, amoral charachter.


Open your mind and soul to me, then you may judge my character.


Yi suggest I am mistaken about the motives and princilples of mystics. Do you mean to imply that they do not have puddleby's best interests at heart, for that is what your words seem to imply to me.


It appears your perceptions are failing you... they do not merely twist and bend the reality, but invent a false one.

Again, I do not imply anything regarding the motives of mystics. Meet with me, and we may discuss mine.


And furthermore, how can you claim to know nothing of the motives of mystics and then turn around and say that I am mistaken about them. You can't have it both ways Drax. Either you don't know anything, and thus nothing you say in this argument is of relavence, or else your words seem to imply you do know something and have allied yourself with the mystic council. If you are acting as a lacky of the mystic council, I suggest to them that they reign you in, for your arguments so far have only strengthened my opposition to this trade. You should leave the debate to your betters, for Lundar argues far better than you.


Yet another example of your forked tounge getting the best of you, dear sweet friend. If the gods still lived, I'd pray to them to heal whatever ailment apparently afflicts you.


Your devious mind has simply supplied a motive for why the mystic council might betray us all. You ment it as an argument for supporting the mystic guild, I know. Obviously, you failed to consider how an honest person might view that motive.


I humbly request that your false assertions end here, so that I may rest from fending off the flurry of your ruthless assaults. I grow weary, from fighting the stink your lies and weakly bound rationale leave behind.

I'd say we all need a rest, after all. As you know, the next full-moon raid is just around the corner. [;)]

-Drax

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Drablak
you implied that FoF was of the same opinion as you while he did not express an opinion.[:)]

my intended implication was that I shared FoF's desire to know more about Ether.

I went on to explain my POV (but not my opinion) concerning my knowledge of ether.

Too many thoughts in one post I guess.

(perhaps thats why I haven't caught up with Konoko)

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Drax
Open your mind and soul to me, then you may judge my character.

What's your obsession with people opening their mind and soul before they can judge your character? It's kind of creepy and I'd rather judge your character by what you say here and by what you do in the lands.

Again, I do not imply anything regarding the motives of mystics. Meet with me, and we may discuss mine.

When most people are in the lands they are busy, so why don't you tell us your motives in these forums?

Yet another example of your forked tounge getting the best of you, dear sweet friend. If the gods still lived, I'd pray to them to heal whatever ailment apparently afflicts you.

I note you haven't directly rebutted what Delirium said.

I humbly request that your false assertions end here, so that I may rest from fending off the flurry of your ruthless assaults. I grow weary, from fighting the stink your lies and weakly bound rationale leave behind.

The best way to stop false assertions from being said is to show how they are false rather than tell the person saying them to stop expressing their opinions and insulting them in the process.

If you can't handle a prolonged debate, maybe you shouldn't get into them in the first place.

[Drax]

Himitsu,

Alright, fine. I'll reluctantly dissect all of this, with the hope that Dilirium and yourself will find whatever it is you are looking for from me.

Originally posted by Delirium

I make nai presumptions about what you think the motives of mystics are.


Yes, you have. From a previous note, you wrote,


"However, I want to thank Drax for opening my eyes.

He says: quote: 'Then, it is clear I won't dissuade you from your opinion, until you open yourself to the idea that we are, in fact, on the verge of something special. Call it a pinnacle or a cliff, either way we are on the verge of something new--the ability to maneuver between ours and the ethereal plane. In addition, our scholars may yet find even greater things with this ability.'

What is more valuble to any mystic than coin? Knowledge! While the least honourable of Mystics has been known to sell out his own true love for coin, the more honest need a more powerful inducement to put aside their principles. "


That's one several examples I could give including wild supposition, but my purpose is not to defame any of you, or show ill will. Suffice it to say that I did not imply that mystics are only interested in knowledge, nor did I imply that they would put aside their principles in its' pursuit.


In your previous arguments, you have proven yourself to be of, at best, amoral charachter.


I am not amoral.


You may not care to discover who is guilty of the murder of so many sylvans, but it is a question that matters greatly to me, and, as the primary suspects are Tenebrion and his brothers, it is a question of fundamental importance in this trade. Lundar at least recognizes the severity of the crime I suspect Tenebrion of, rather than simply dismiss it as you do.


I do not dismiss it, yet. It is my opinion that there is not enough evidence to support your theory that Tenebrion is a "mass murderer." Therefore, I'll not engage in that debate.


Yi suggest I am mistaken about the motives and princilples of mystics. Do you mean to imply that they do not have puddleby's best interests at heart, for that is what your words seem to imply to me. And furthermore, how can you claim to know nothing of the motives of mystics and then turn around and say that I am mistaken about them. You can't have it both ways Drax. Either you don't know anything, and thus nothing you say in this argument is of relavence, or else your words seem to imply you do know something and have allied yourself with the mystic council. If you are acting as a lacky of the mystic council, I suggest to them that they reign you in, for your arguments so far have only strengthened my opposition to this trade. You should leave the debate to your betters, for Lundar argues far better than you.


More wild accusations. I do not imply that mystics "do not have Puddleby's best interests at heart." Nor, do I work for the mystic council, nor do I feel they are my betters.

I'm a simple citizen, offering help to those who have helped me.

The depths to which this flurry of accusations sank is almost too painful to fathom. [;)]


Your devious mind has simply supplied a motive for why the mystic council might betray us all. You ment it as an argument for supporting the mystic guild, I know. Obviously, you failed to consider how an honest person might view that motive.


I am honest, and did consider my own point of view.


And nai, do not think I am easily tricked into aiding this trade.


Oh well, I'll have to try something else, then. [;)]

And dear miss Himitsu, I'll add these answers, hopefully to satisfy you:
* It's unfortunate you find me creepy.
* My motives aren't for this forum... too much has already been misinterpreted, or flatly misrepresented.
* I can handle prolonged debate, when it qualifies as such. [:)]

-Drax

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Drax
And dear miss Himitsu, I'll add these answers, hopefully to satisfy you:
* It's unfortunate you find me creepy.

I don't find you creepy, I found you saying people need to open their mind and soul to understand what you're saying creepy and I also find it creepy that you keep on using these terms of endearment like "dear."

[T'rr'll]

Mostly OOC, Boris made an interesting comment on the Open Hands Forum -

" Jo Maril said to Cinnabrion : "If you would just tell ue what you were gonna do with the stones maybe it would be easier to give them to you."

Cinnabrion said in respocne to Jo's comment : "If ya knew what we were up to You'd try and stop us."

Now lets look at this statement. Why would a guy who wants our help tell us this? I'll tell you why. Because the brions are in the unenviable position of being both the bad guys and the storyline information distributers. Yes the brions want us to give them stones, but as information brokers they have to tell us it's a bad idea to do so at the same time.
Folks seem to feel that giveing in to the brions wishes as the only possable way to drive the stroy forward. This isn't true. Ranks upon rank of exiles marching threw tennebrions tower to drag the evil one out of their and takeing over his castle makes a whale of a story. I think this is what DT wants, they've promised the alliance of the five clans a castle long ago, well here it is, get off yer butts and go take it."

T'rr'll [:D]

[Delirium]

Lundar says:
You entire argument seems to be:

Observation: Tenebrion has a library full of books made of skin, mostly sylvan.
Conclusion: Tenebrion must be a mass-murderer of sylvan babies!

I will not make such a leap in reasoning, especially taken with the contrary evidence that Tenebrion has stated that he had collected the books, and not created them himself. The fact that Tenebrion's owns books made of sylvan skin arouses in me the vaguest of suspicions, but not enough to deter me from supporting the trade with the 'Brions.


You are very badly mistaken Lundar. My argument is that there is a great deal of evidence that Tenebrion is a vile untrustworthy creature, and consequently no deal should be made with him that might be to his benefit.

I have focused on what I consider his most reprehensible crime. The fact that Tenebrion has said he collected the books is not contrary evidence. It is *your* assumption that since he said he collected them, he had no hand in their creation. If someone told you they colleted maha claws, would you assume they did not hunt Maha? We are not talking about one or two books here. He has shelf upon shelf of these books. Each book has many pages. Thousands must have died to create these books. Never before have I seen such books. If Tenebrion created none of these books himself (and I doubt this), he must still have collected them aggressively and in doing so, must have caused the creation of some of those books, which makes him as guilty as if he created them himself. Would exiles hunt cats so frequently if we were not paid coin for their furs? As to the issue of the skins of sylvan children being used (and it was children, not babies, that I recall Tenebrion mentioning), I still have not had a chance to review the visionstone. I do remember a statement from Tenebrion that children's skins were used in the books, but it may well have been that I had read the transcript of another conversation in which Tenebrion made such a statement and I took what I saw myself and what he said in that meeting of which I made the visionstone
as confirmation of that other transcript's accuracy. However, since I have been unable to find that other transcript (I suspect it may be in Babajaga's diary, which seems to be missing from its shelf), you will note that I have not been bringing up this particular issue in my more recent arguments. It is you, Lundar, that seems compelled to repeatedly bring it up.

In other statenments, Tenebrion has shown a callous disregard for the lives of his guards: When asked if he he could have his guards not attack exiles when we came to meet with him at *his* request because we wound up having to kill some to reach his meeting room, he responded that he could just get more, so it didn't matter. Umbrion has worked with the Darshak and hired them to attack puddleby. Tenebrion appears to be a cannibal - his cook makes stew out of people. The list of evidence goes on and on and on. Some of these things could be dismissed if taken individually, but only a naive fool would dismiss it all, taken together.

Finally, even if you take the brothers at their word, and believe they are telling the truth about everything, they flat out tell us that if we knew what they were up to, we would try to stop them!!!!!!

Still, Lundar and Drax want to go ahead with the trade???

Nai, we should be doing all we can to stop this trade! I urge my fellow exiles not only to not help in getting additional stones, but to actively interfere with ANY attempts to do so. Clearly, anyone aiding in such an attempt is betraying puddleby and could justifiably be taken to court. Also, it is my understanding that a mystic must be left alone in the stone room in OC4 to get a stone. If it appears a group of sufficient strength has gathered to get to OC4, one could go along with the group and enter the room with the mystic so they can't get the stone. We must make sure this trade does not come to pass. Rather, we should be pursuing Boris's suggestion. Let this serve as notice that exiles who help betray puddleby may find their time wasted.

-Delirium

OOC:

Lundar's clicker said:
OOC:
It is true that actively supporting the deal with the 'Brions will help move the plot along, but so will actively OPPOSING it. Put yourself in your character's shoes: What would they do in this situation?

Be carefull what you ask for. I'd been holding Deli back on this one, knowing that she can be a bit impulsive and not given to considering the consequences to herself when she thinks issues of right and wrong are involved. She's a complex character with a complex background that I've created and she and I don't always agree. When you write a story, the characters don't always act as you would, and that's often the case with Delirium. All Delirium's responses here (up until this ooc note) have been purely IC. Lundar made a good start in arguing with Deli, but he quickly took a wrong turn from Deli's point of view. Drax started out on the wrong tack, and only managed to infuriate Deli. At this point, I'm not sure there is anything Drax could do to salvage Deli's oppinion of him. I'm not sure PWC Drax fully appreciated that he was arguing with a character rather than a PWC, but he really did hurt Lundar's case in her eyes. There were arguments that might have at least cast enough doubt in her mind to make her not take any action, but that's water under the bridge at this point. The debate with Lundar and Drax has only served to strengthen her resolve to oppose the trade. She's spitting fire and ready to go! If this were a story I was writting, she would be at it now. Lundar asked what characters would do in this situation. In the case of Delirium, he's got his answer now.

But this is an RPG, not a story, and other people are involved. If I let Deli be IC true to herself, I run the risk of OOC making people angry, hence a dilema. In the past I've usually gone more towards the IC side. Do I let Delirium do what she wants in this case?

-Delirium's clicker

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Delirium
But this is an RPG, not a story, and other people are involved. If I let Deli be IC true to herself, I run the risk of OOC making people angry, hence a dilema. In the past I've usually gone more towards the IC side. Do I let Delirium do what she wants in this case?

I think you should be true to your IC self, even if your OOC self disagrees and even if you risk making other IC and OOC people angry with you IC and/or OOC.

It's been my experience that other people come in and out of your life but you have to live with yourself for as long as you are alive. If you change how you believe or act in order to make people like you then what kind of person will you turn out to be? You will be like a mirror, having no substance but merely reflecting what you think other people expect from you.

I now think it's possible to be both enemies and allies with the same person at the same time and to remain friends. So even though you might anger some people, I think that is worthwhile to remain true to your own goals and ideals and I hope that these angered people won't forget the reasons why they are your ally and friend and treat you accordingly.

[Lundar]

Replying to:

<I>"My argument is that there is a great deal of evidence that Tenebrion is a vile untrustworthy creature, and consequently no deal should be made with him that might be to his benefit."</I>

And I am not arguing that the 'Brions are taintless saints. However, I do believe that they can be trusted, so far as this deal is concerned, and that this will help improve our currently strained relations with the 'Brions.

<I>"I have focused on what I consider his most reprehensible crime."</I>

<I>"It is *your* assumption that since he said he collected them, he had no hand in their creation... Thousands must have died to create these books... If Tenebrion created none of these books himself, he must still have collected them aggressively and in doing so, must have caused the creation of some of those books, which makes him as guilty as if he created them..."</I>

And it is *your* assumption that thousands of sylvans were killed in the making of these books(the skins could have conceivably come from a small number of sylvans), *your* assumption that any sylvans were killed at all(the sylvans could have simply been healed), *your* assumption that the skins were given involuntarily, and *your* assumption that Tenebrion encouraged the creation of such books(Tenebrion could have easily begun collecting the books after the original creators had perished).

My point is that we do not know any of the circumstances regarding the creation of the books, and that all of your "evidence" that Tenebrion is a mass-murderer is circumstantial. If you cannot see this, I do not know what to say. I grow tired of repeating myself.

<I>"In other statenments, Tenebrion has shown a callous disregard for the lives of his guards..."</I>

...And so have most exiles. I guess that puts us on the same boat?

<I>"Umbrion has worked with the Darshak and hired them to attack puddleby..."</I>

...In response to exiles repeatedly invading his Keep.

<I>"Clearly, anyone aiding in such an attempt is betraying puddleby and could justifiably be taken to court."</I>

Betraying who's interests? The community's? Oh, right, you mean "the interests of the entire community-- besides those who want to see a trade with the 'Brions." You may be surprised to find that there is a large number of exiles who DO support a trade with the 'Brions, who would find your assumptions presumptuous.

<I>"It is my understanding that a mystic must be left alone in the stone room in OC4 to get a stone. If it appears a group of sufficient strength has gathered to get to OC4, one could go along with the group and enter the room with the mystic so they can't get the stone."</I>

Haven't you learned anything from the incident between Neige and Manticore? Interfere with an FMOCR in such a manner, and you will find yourself making a lot of enemies, very quickly.

-Lundar<P>

[Finnias]

Maybe it is time to put this to a vote?

[Lundar]

Exiles vote with their bodies. Come support the FMOCR this ooc: Friday, at 12pm PST. All exiles are welcome.

-Lundar<P>

[Delirium]

Notice that Lundar does nothing to address the brothers own statement that we would try to stop them if we knew what they were up to. Clearly, Lundar has allowed his greed for this new knowlegde offered by Tenebrion and his brothers to cloud his judgement. We must act to save puddleby from this foolishness.

I am well aware of Neige and Manticore. Neige acted out of the blue, but I give fair warning of my actions. Those who follow Lundar in this follishness will only have themselves to blame if they find that their efforts are wasted. And Lundar, I have heard greater anger expressed towards the mystic council than towards Neige himself. It is possible to fool many people, and even most of the people for a short time. As Lundar has reminded me, time is short and drastic action may be called for.

So, with the situation as it stands, I wish to make it clear that I act on my own to prevent this grave wrong. I have not sought the approval of any group to which I belong.

The Brion brothers have told us we would try to stop them if we knew what they wanted with the Orga stones. Those who aid the trade in any way betray us all, and must be stopped and brought to justice!

-Delirium

[Mjollnir]

As long as things like the court system are abusable i cant forsee many successful hunts to places like OC4 especially if they aid the brions in some way.

Delirium has given due warning and has protected herself somewhat against retaliation by any exiles she annoys (assuming she goes ahead and sabotages the hunt) if many people oppose this trade as mush as she does precautions will have to be taken inorder to ensure a successfull hunt

Personally im for trading with the brions, they have facilities that we lack and could discover much more than we could about the stones simply from experimentation.

We may not like what the brions plan on doing with the stones but do the brions like what we are doing with their "gifts"?

using ethereal amulets to roam the ethereal plane could be doing more harm than we are aware of or giving us the capability of doing something catastrophic yet the brions do not try to cut us off from it. instead they occasionally offer guidence. can not our mystics do the same for them with what they know?

Remember these are mystic items that need training for use perhaps all that will happen if/when we hand them over is they will not be able to work them or they will shatter much like the purgatory pendents did when tenebrion first got them (or so im told)

[Aravir]

I don't like the idea of stopping the Council by suing Mystics. That would be sinking to their level, and I don't believe that's a good thing to do.

Delirium's idea about having people go along to enter the stone room is interesting. If a group of exiles show up for a raid and announce right from the beginning what their intentions are, and thus keep anyone from getting the stone, perhaps that would be all right.

[Ruen]

Originally posted by Delirium

The Brion brothers have told us we would try to stop them if we knew what they wanted with the Orga stones.

You know, I've heard this a number of times, and even seen a word for word quote of the brother who said this in the discussion, and I don't remember anyone who was pro-trade address it adequately.

These guys are arrogant enough to say that we'd *try* to stop them if we knew what they were up to while they are in the process of trying to convince people to do what they want us to do. It sounds to me like they're doing something similar to offering to sell a pie to a halfling who's missed breakfast while saying "you wouldn't buy this pie if you knew where its been." In either case at best the person selling is making fun of the other person in a mean-spirited way. At worst you're being offered goods that you're better off without and being laughed at the while.

So I'd like to know from the pro-trade people, given the statement, why are you willing to gamble on us not getting dark-berry pie?

[Lundar]

Delirium wrote:

<I>"Notice that Lundar does nothing to address the brothers own statement that we would try to stop them if we knew what they were up to."</I>

I have, however, adequately addressed all of your other quibbles, I believe? Let me now try to address the statement made by Cimmbrion. This is what Umbrion replied, when asked about the statement in question:

<I>Umbrion says, "perhaps you misunderstood him"
Umbrion says, "certainly he meant..."
Umbrion says, "should you know the project without fully understanding it..."
Umbrion says, "your initial reaction might be alarm."
Umbrion says, "I assure you..."
Umbrion says, "the project is no threat to you"</I>

Various other 'Brion brothers have also given their assurances that the teleportation stones will not be used to harm exiles, and from my own understanding of the stones, I also believe that they would probably not be used against exiles, because their utility is extremely limited in this regard.

Aravir writes:

<I>"I don't like the idea of stopping the Council by suing Mystics. That would be sinking to their level, and I don't believe that's a good thing to do."</I>

For the record, the Council has never EVER sued anyone for any reasons.

<I>"Delirium's idea about having people go along to enter the stone room is interesting. If a group of exiles show up for a raid and announce right from the beginning what their intentions are, and thus keep anyone from getting the stone, perhaps that would be all right."</I>

I fail to see how this would be different from suing the Mystic outright. The result would be exactly the same, only you would deny the Mystic a trial under the court of law.

-Lundar<P>

[Himitsu]

Various other 'Brion brothers have also given their assurances that the teleportation stones will not be used to harm exiles, and from my own understanding of the stones, I also believe that they would probably not be used against exiles, because their utility is extremely limited in this regard.

It seems you believe Umbrion's explanation over Cimmbrion's earlier statement while I find it a bit silly. If the project isn't against us exiles and we might even be supportive of it, then why don't they tell us what the project is to tear down any mistrust exiles have for the Brions?

For the record, the Council has never EVER sued anyone for any reasons.

I think that "their" that Aravir used was referring to Mystics and not the Council.

I fail to see how this would be different from suing the Mystic outright. The result would be exactly the same, only you would deny the Mystic a trial under the court of law.

As the Neige trial shows, the court of law isn't always about righting a wrong or getting justice.

[Lundar]

Himitsu writes:

<I>"It seems you believe Umbrion's explanation over Cimmbrion's earlier statement..."</I>

In addition to the assurances given by both Tenebrion and Melabrion.

<I>"If the project isn't against us exiles and we might even be supportive of it, then why don't they tell us what the project is to tear down any mistrust exiles have for the Brions?"</I>

I do not know, Himitsu. Why not try asking the 'Brions yourself?

<I>"I think that "their" that Aravir used was referring to Mystics and not the Council."</I>

Mystics have not used the court in such a manner either, to my knowledge.

<I>"As the Neige trial shows, the court of law isn't always about righting a wrong or getting justice."</I>

Correct. I was merely trying to point out that by interfering directly with a Mystic trying to get a stone in OC4, the results would be exactly the same as suing a Mystic right before they entered the Power Room-- the party's efforts would be wasted. Futher, interfering with a Mystic in the Power Room would deny the Mystic even of the slight chance at a fair trial.

-Lundar<P>

[Aravir]

Does anyone have a source for transcripts of those discussions with Cimmbrion and Umbrion?

[Delirium]

Nai, Lundar, in point of fact, nothing you have said has reduced any of my concerns. If anything, your arguments increase my concerns. At first I thought you were simply blind, but now you have given me cause for deeper concern. My point was that you had made no effort, however feable, to rebutt one of my points. I agree completely with Himitsu that Umbrion's words are not satisfactory. If this project would not harm us, then they should just explain it. I personally can think of several ways the stones could be used against us, but will keep them to myself, not wanting to give our enemies ideas, particularly when their agents may be listening, or even speaking in this forum.

Also, it seems that the mystic council considered these very stones enough of a danger that they want to keep one out of the hands of Manticore. Manticore may well have been insane - I don't think I ever exchanged words with him. But if the council was right about Manticore, that seems all the more reason to keep them out of the hands of those who have actively attacked the town in the past!

I disagree with Aravir about the use of the courts in this matter. While jurries may render imperfect verdicts as a result of bribes or lies of those who would decieve us, the court is the proper place to take those who would commit the crime of betraying Puddleby by conspiring with the 'Brion brothers. If the jurry is corrupt or missled, then one should consider other methods to stop the betrayal. And I advocate nai only bringing the mystics to justice, but the fighters and healers who would help bring this trade about as well. If nai fighters and healers help, nai trade will take place.

-Delirium

[Lundar]

Delirium writes:

<I>"I agree completely with Himitsu that Umbrion's words are not satisfactory."</I>

But Cimmbrion's are?

<I>"Also, it seems that the mystic council considered these very stones enough of a danger that they want to keep one out of the hands of Manticore."</I>

I don't believe that "danger" was ever an issue in the Council's concern.

<I>"My point was that you had made no effort, however feable, to rebutt one of my points."</I>

F'nord. No effort indeed! I may as well stop wasting my ink then.

Regards.

-Lundar<P>

[Hidden]

Let me point out that in the past exiles have indeed gone with FMOCRs with the intent of going into the power room and ruining the raid. Those were the Cmdrs. They were left for dead in OC3 and treated the party to some bravery and compassion experience as they headed out. Not only that, but now that the court has been revealed as a method of stopping the raid, someone could merely preemptively countersue any troublemakers. No more FMOCRs will be stopped until a new method is found, I assure you.

[Delirium]

The Cmdrs were two fighters, neither particularly strong at the time (were they even 2nd circle?). I had understood they were stopped because they were so abusive towards the healers that the healers decided not to heal them (As a new healer, I was ordered not to heal one of them by the hunt leader, and that was the reason given to me). A stronger and more polite group with fighters and healers (and who knows, perhaps even a mystic) could do the job. Furthermore, if the majority in the town, or, more specificlly, of those selected for the jury recognize the mystic council's betrayal in dealing with Tenebrion, then any bringing "preemptive suits" might find themselves sitting out the FMOCR in jail.

As for Lundar's last response:

1) I nai trust any of the brothers. I believe them to be guilty of a great many crimes. I think Cimmbrion's statement was a slip-up born of arrogance, and Umbrion's response an effort to cover for his brother's truth telling.

2) If the stone was nai danger, then why did you not want Manticore to have it?

3) I do see that you have spent a great deal of effort to rebut my arguments, and you have now attempted to address that one point. As I indicate above, I find your rebuttal unsatisfactory.

Understand this: My oppinions of the brothers' guilt is based on evidence I have seen with my own eyes or has be related to me by those I trust. I realize that much of the evidence is circumstantial, but there is such a preponderance of it that I would need absolute proof of their innocence before I would be willing to believe them. However, given the potential risks with this trade, I would be morally opposed to this trade if I even had the smallest suspicion of their guilt. The risks to puddleby are just too great.

-Delirium

[Hidden]

To successfuly stop a raid in which all other participants were working against you you would need at least a three quarters full size FMOCR team. No less would do for survival. Chances are, there wouldn't be even half that available from the pool of non-participants and those opposed. Additionally, you could always be sued home one at a time, which would require an additional personel investment to prevent.

You greatly overestimate the number of people who support your position strongly enough to take active part in stopping FMOCRs.

[Luminary]

Sorry I'm lagging behind in this discussion, but here's a couple of thoughts I have had while perusing old writings:

On departing, someone (Mjollnir?) stated:
<i>If by everybody you mean the population of puddleby then its pretty conclusive that everybody has the ability.</i>

Wasn't it Angel (maybe Spirit?) that couldn't depart? It's been a long time but, to the best of my recollection there was an exiled, female Human Healer that could not depart.

I have a personal hypothesis (no real evidence, yet) that the magic used to bring us to this place of exile has a number of unexplained side effects, which affect all of us in different ways. Among the effects are loss of all or some of our memory of our past, loss of our native language and the gained ability to speak the common tongue, cessation of aging, and, possibily, the ability to travel across the planar boundary between our material plane and Purgatory when fallen.

On refuting Cimmbrion (or refuting anything the 'brions state):

There is no way for Lundar, me, or any other exile to explain exactly what was meant by his, very foreboding statement. Likewise, there is no concrete way to disprove Tenebrion, Melabrion and Umbrion's statements clarifying Cimmbrion's. Personally, I call it a wash, and use other criteria to make my judgements.

Luminary

[Lundar]

Delirium writes:

<I>"Given the potential risks with this trade, I would be morally opposed to this trade if I even had the smallest suspicion of their guilt. The risks to puddleby are just too great."</I>

It is not the intention of those who support the trade to make war upon the 'Brions. Quite the opposite, our intentions are to improve our diplomatic relations with the Brothers. It is YOU and those who oppose the trade that threaten to destroy the relations with the 'Brions that we have built up over the years, and throw Puddleby into conflict with the powerful wizards. True, there are risks for supporting the deal, but there are risks for any stance you might take, support, opposition, or indifference. I for one will not be detered from the course that I feel is wisest, simply because of someone's "suspicions."

-Lundar<P>

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Luminary
Wasn't it Angel (maybe Spirit?) that couldn't depart? It's been a long time but, to the best of my recollection there was an exiled, female Human Healer that could not depart.
It was Angel, but the issue was not that she was unable to depart, simply that she absolutely refused to under any circumstances. I believe her reasoning was some sort of suspicion of side-effects of departing that she wanted to have no part of.

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Luminary
Wasn't it Angel (maybe Spirit?) that couldn't depart? It's been a long time but, to the best of my recollection there was an exiled, female Human Healer that could not depart.


Cradlesong is no Angel, and CERTAINLY not a female, but he did have a trying time in Tenebrion's tower after falling on its upper-most floor. Cradlesong fell into the area during a rescue attempt. Tenebrion bolted and fried him for days as he awaited a rescue. Tenebrion even had the gall to fry him as a wedding went on in his courtyard.

To make a long story abbreviated, Cradlesong was unable to depart until he was delivered by a brave rescue team to the relatively quiet town center of Puddleby.
(yes Hidden...IC and OOC was unable to /depart)

(By the by, this is damning evidence of Tenebrion's evil nature.)

-Sticky Dorf

[Unregistered]

Not really
Tenebrion was meerly protecting his tower in the same way that exiles protect town from invading monsters.
Do we not kill them utterly rather than just hurt them until they go away? No

As to why Cradlesong couldnt depart, what are we to do if the Brions decided to make that a permanent feature of some areas like their towers or mazes or even the ethereal plane itself?
Exiles who fell there would have to wait for a strong enough and willing rescue team or lie there and rot until the chaos storm templed them

[Delirium]

Good relations with a cannibalistic murderer!? HA! I suppose that means he will eat you last. I suppose I should not be surprised that some of the inhabitants of a prison colony would choose their own selfish interests over the cause of justice. I do not seek a war, I only seek justice for those whose skin was used in such a vile manner! And the books themselves must be laid to rest so the souls of our kin can be at peace!

I hope that Hidden is wrong and most exiles do not support this criminally foolish enterprise. Still, it is clear that there are a number of criminally minded exiles are willing to support this trade. Some secrecy is required to ensure the cause of Justice! Contact me directly if you wish to aid this cause! (I will, of course keep all communtication strictly confidential) It is time to plan our action!

-Delirium

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Delirium
[...]cannibalistic murderer[...]They eat people now? I want some of what you're smoking! [;)]

[Delirium]

As I said earlier:
Tenebrion appears to be a cannibal - his cook makes stew out of people.

I make nai accusations without reason.

I note too, that Drabby has a significant self-interest in this matter, giving him motive to make baseless accusations against me. I do not smoke anything!

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Delirium
I note too, that Drabby has a significant self-interest in this matter, giving him motive to make baseless accusations against me. I do not smoke anything!I never tried to hide my interests in this matter, on the contrary I made them quite clear from the onset. I do beleive that this is a trade for the good of Puddleby though, otherwise I would not support it, whatever my personal interests.
Many people have had dealings with the Brions, and some have even sworn an oath to them. I wonder why you are not as adamant in dealing with these people that have clearly established that their foremost alliegance is with the Brion. One of them even applied to become a member of WoD, and I don't remember you becoming so agitated then.
The founder (I beleive) of Falineas blade, Tessa, went as far as participating in an operation on a member of Nox made by Tenebrion in which he did something to her brain. Yet, even after that fact you still participated in FB, and associated yourself with her.
I find very strange that you now accuse many exiles, acting in what they perceive is the best interest of Puddleby, of so many vile motives, while you did nothing to people who clearly act, and do not hide that fact, in the interest of the Brions.
Your erratic and somewhat out of character behavior makes me wonder if you are not posessed or under the influence of something, hence the reference to smoking.

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Unregistered
As to why Cradlesong couldnt depart, what are we to do if the Brions decided to make that a permanent feature of some areas like their towers or mazes or even the ethereal plane itself?
Exiles who fell there would have to wait for a strong enough and willing rescue team or lie there and rot until the chaos storm templed them

A: Please Register.

B: I would see it as perfectly IC if the brions (If in fact they posses that ability) were to put safeguards on areas. I see no problem with it IC or OOC.

-Sticky Dorf

[Delirium]

Yes, there are those who work with the brothers and their are those who work with the Darshak. These people betray puddleby in their small way on a daily basis. This betrayal is much larger, and betrayal by those you trust is much harder to endure.

If you think I must oppose membership of someone because of their affiliations, then you missunderstand the nature of this clan. There are many differing views in WoD, but we unite for a common purpose of helping new exiles. When I share a common purpose with another exile, I am willing to set asside our other differences and try to work with that exile. In trying to stop this missguided deal, I will work with all who contact me (you can use the e-mail button below). I will also work with you or Lundar in other matters, as I have stated previously. Sometimes one must work with criminals for the greater good.

As for Tenebrion's opperation, you miss-characterize the events. The operation was the result of an advisarial challange Tenebrion issued to the Sisterhood. It was decided to meet his challange, but on condition that Tessa be there to ensure the saftey of the subject. As for Tessa's feelings about Tenebrion, she refused to heal or hunt with anyone who used a sword of souls because she thought they increased Tenebrions power and viewed the use of a SoS as a betrayal of Puddleby. Were she still in the lands, she might well be among those contacting me to prevent this deal.

I take offense at your characterization of my actions. I might well ask what you have been smoking to overlook the ample evidence of Tenebrion's missdeeds?

[Lundar]

Delirium writes:

<I>"I take offense at your characterization of my actions."</I>

It is YOU who characterize US as "vile", "selfish", and "criminal-minded", when we are only doing what we believe to be in the best interests of Puddleby. But enough. It seems you will not be convinced by any ammount of logic or reason. There is no point in arguing with you further.

-Lundar<P>

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Delirium
Yes, there are those who work with the brothers and their are those who work with the Darshak. These people betray puddleby in their small way on a daily basis. This betrayal is much larger, and betrayal by those you trust is much harder to endure.So if you had not trusted me in the first place, this would be ok? You seriously think that not interfering with people that admit working expressly for someone you characterise as a "cannibalistic mass murderer of children" is a lesser evil and that a group of people that support a trade that could prevent an open war with the same people, these people doing so with the expressed beleif that it is for the good of Puddleby?
Sometimes one must work with criminals for the greater good.You are willing to work with criminals, yet you would pretend to judge those who are willing to trade with people who haven't been proven to be criminals. How strange principles you have.As for Tenebrion's opperation, you miss-characterize the events. The operation was the result of an advisarial challange Tenebrion issued to the Sisterhood. It was decided to meet his challange, but on condition that Tessa be there to ensure the saftey of the subject.So you admit knowingly dealing with Tenebrion in an experiement on a sylvan being? That's the cannibalistic mass murderer of sylvans? How strange. I wonder what was in it for Nox at the time. Didn't you think that whatever Tenebrion might discover could very well be used against all of Puddleby? Against other sylvans?As for Tessa's feelings about Tenebrion, she refused to heal or hunt with anyone who used a sword of souls because she thought they increased Tenebrions power and viewed the use of a SoS as a betrayal of Puddleby. Were she still in the lands, she might well be among those contacting me to prevent this deal.She might, yet each and every time I saw her after that experiement she was covertly holding a gem with a remarkable resemblance to those the Brions have and that are beleived to be related to souls. She spoke to herself while trying to hide the gem and would be heard mumbling about "her precious."I take offense at your characterization of my actions. I might well ask what you have been smoking to overlook the ample evidence of Tenebrion's missdeeds?Be careful of judging others and their motivations lest you find yourself the subject of the same scrutiny. Yes, I do find your actions very strange, and your principles quite flexible. And, considering the evidence, I can only wonder at your motivation in this affair. Perhaps that experiment by Tenebrion altered you in some way. Have you had any contact with Tenebrion's gift that Tessa had?

[Delirium]

Drablak - your reasoning appears to have been clouded, for you make my words say things they do not. With such faulty logic, it is little wonder you can deny the logic of the evidince against Tenebrion.

/action sighs

First, I said, "betrayal by those you trust is much harder to endure." Somehow, you get from this that "betrayal by those you don't trust is o.k." when, in fact, the opposite is implicit in my statement.

Second, you asked why I was "not as adamant" in dealing with those who have alliances with Tenebrion and others. That does not mean I condone their actions, knowingly help them in their betrayals, or even suggest that honest exiles in Puddleby not interfere with those betrayals. In point of fact, you are the one currently working with these exiles in the effort to get orga stones, not I. I am opposing their interests in serving their masters by opposing this trade. So actually, I do interfere with their actions.

Third, you find my remark about criminals hard to understand. Let me put it another way by giving an example: I would work with a thief if as a result I could prevent a murder. You can't mean you would refuse to work with the thief and let the murder take place? So, yes, I would work with those I think are engaged in criminal activities, such as yourself, if I thought some greater good would come of it.

Forth, I did nai deal with Tenebrion in any matter. I know those who were there, and those who I know well and spoke to before the experiment, I attempted to discourage from participating. I did then and still do now fear that any knowledge gained by Tenebrion will eventually be used against us. You seem to imply you share this fear, yet you still support the trade?

Finally, I had thought the stone to come from another source, but I never touched it or caught more than a glance of it. I do think I know who the stone was given to upon tessa's leaving the lands. I suppose I should ask. However, you are truely grasping at straws to suggest that some action of Tenebrion's to influence me would cause me to be so opposed to his interests.

/action gigles

As for Lundar's remark - I could well say the same of you. I have presented my logic and reasoning, yet no amount of logic and reasoning seems to convince you of the wrongness of your actions. How would you feel if the pages of someone's books might be made of your grandchildren?

Those of you who wish to help prevent the betrayal of Puddleby and have not yet contacted me, please do so soon.

-Delirium

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Delirium
Drablak - your reasoning appears to have been clouded, for you make my words say things they do not. With such faulty logic, it is little wonder you can deny the logic of the evidince against Tenebrion.Your arguments are weak and lack substence. I am only looking at your statements and the actions you admit.
First, I said, "betrayal by those you trust is much harder to endure." Somehow, you get from this that "betrayal by those you don't trust is o.k." when, in fact, the opposite is implicit in my statement.You admited that you do not interfere with oath-sworn Brion's minion, yet seem adamant to pursue people who act for the good of Puddleby. Your actions speak of themselves and you only try to cloud the issue.In point of fact, you are the one currently working with these exiles in the effort to get orga stones, not I.None of the people I work with are Brion's minions. It seems you cannot even get your facts straight.Third, you find my remark about criminals hard to understand. I don't need an explanation of what you meant. You need to look at that sentence in this context. I find it totally hilarious that you would say that and not see how silly it sounds considering your position.So, yes, I would work with those I think are engaged in criminal activities, such as yourself, if I thought some greater good would come of it.I am not a criminal and I do not engage in criminal activities.Forth, I did nai deal with Tenebrion in any matter. I know those who were there, and those who I know well and spoke to before the experiment, I attempted to discourage from participating. I did then and still do now fear that any knowledge gained by Tenebrion will eventually be used against us. You seem to imply you share this fear, yet you still support the trade?Yes I support the deal concerning orga stones because I can have an educated evaluation of the risks involved. We know the stones and their limitations. You condoned a deal in an experiment with no knowledge of the possible consequences, either on the subject or as a result of it. Moreover people you are associated with were given potentially dangerous artifacts and you dismiss this as trivial. You are the one that is a criminal.However, you are truely grasping at straws to suggest that some action of Tenebrion's to influence me would cause me to be so opposed to his interests.Beleive what you will. I don't think the gem comes from Tenebrion, but from Melabrion, and it's quite possible that Melabrion is acting in his own interests in this, in opposition to his brothers'. I have seen Melabrion with a gem like the one Tessa had. I have seen Melabrion use it on Kalian who departed in front of him. Melabrion was the one who tried to cloud the issue by stating that it was a dangerous deal for Puddleby. You seem to play his side very well.

I would strongly advise anyone who wants to contact Delirium to be very careful and to take precautions before meeting her. I am not sure she is acting of her own will. The experiement conducted on a member of Nox, and the artifact they were given, may very well be causing them to act in ways they would otherwise not, and it's possible that they plan to use this artifact on whoever contacts them.

[Farhope]

Drablak, you go too far here. You accuse Delirium to work against Puddleby and to be a criminal. No, she opposes you, no more.

I oppose you also as I see what you push to be something unwise. Why do you that? not for the good of everyone (nobody does that) but to continue your studies in an easier way. Don't wait for any support from me anymore.

[Mjollnir]

Im going to chirp up and express neither my support or rejection for the deal with the brions.

I shall make up my mind once certain fears have been either proved true or false
But this is my view on the subject

Firstly i belive that the brions have better facilities and more methods of experimentation open to them than we have, so we can learn alot more about the stones from them than we can by ourselves.
The brions have promised to share the results of their experimentation with us and i only have 2 qualms about that.
1) will the results be shared with all exiles or just to the mystics?
If only the mystics are to get the results will they be shared with the rest of the exile population or kept to themselves with the rest of the mystic secrets?
2) Will they tell us everything they find out or are they going to keep back some crucial part of their results which may be used against us?

Secondly the orga stones are similar to purgatory pendents in a way, they both transport people to another location and they both require training to use them without breaking.
I've heard tales of when Tenebrion first traded for some purgatory pendents (which was a much more popular deal since he was offering a weapon everybody could use not something for the few) that they shattered when he tried to use them and he would have to take the tests and become a 4th circle healer inorder to train with Virgil.
How do we know that the stones wont ssimply shatter in their hands the first time they try to use them.
Although this time they might have acces to the training if there is a willing mystic with a teleportation ledger out there.

Thirdly if they use the orga stones to teleport their armies against us I have faith that we will beat them back we have done so in the past and will do so again.
We have abilities that they lack, no Brion employs healers they simply send wave after wave at us hoping that sheer force of numbers can beat us down while we can heal our fighters and even raise them from fallen. We have many good mystics who can use their skills to discover where enemies are hiding or boost us so that we may fight better.
And Tenebrion must be aware that if he were or his brothers were to attack Puddleby exiles would rise up as a United force and seek revenge, so far he has only dealt with those people bored enough or interested enough to go and treat with him or attack his keep on their way to the ethereal plane. He has never seen the coordinated convinced group that we could raise as has not been done since the ripture war.

What is the limit to how many an orga stone can carry at once? can they send a whole army or only small groups?
And doesnt the mystic using the stone get taken along for the ride? if what people have said in other threads Tenebrion would be wary of doing this as he may not be able to protect himself from falling away from his keep.

OOC Warning look away now to avoid mind boggling
OOC HWC fully supports the deal since it appears to be he only storyline DT is running for us at the moment and might have been resolved long ago had exiles not been so stubborn and suspicious.
But i will withold my support IC until i know more fully what is going on (basically im saying whats in it for me?)

[Is it just me or does anybody else think this thread is deteriorating into a slagging match (or flame war if you prefer)between Delirium and Drablak+Lundar?]
End of OOC

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Mjollnir


OOC Warning look away now to avoid mind boggling
OOC HWC fully supports the deal since it appears to be he only storyline DT is running for us at the moment and might have been resolved long ago had exiles not been so stubborn and suspicious.
But i will withold my support IC until i know more fully what is going on (basically im saying whats in it for me?)

[Is it just me or does anybody else think this thread is deteriorating into a slagging match (or flame war if you prefer)between Delirium and Drablak+Lundar?]
End of OOC


OOC
I'm on the fence still. On one hand, I want the storyline to get the hell moving. On another hand, I hate that we only have one choice (apparent) that will move it along. A while back I attempted to offer my services to Melabrion (in a dwarven capacity). We had a couple chit-chats via SS but never got to discuss much in person. I went as far as to sleep in his audience chamber, awaiting his arrival since its such a pain to rush out there on a moments notice when he pops into the lands. Mjollnir was wittness to what this got me.

So, there it is...I made an attempt to push some kind of alternate cooperation along.

I don't like the idea of moving the storyline ahead with such a massive tool as a strange stone, let alone 6 of them. I hate even more that seemingly, this is the only way.

I will not be supporting the FMOCRs any longer...with ANY of my characters. I tire of playing peek-a-boo with the brions.
End of OOC [/B][/QUOTE]

-Sticky Dorf [;)]

[Mjollnir]

Things might have gone better for you had you not been so unlucky to wake up just as Melabrion was leaving. Aside from that it was a good plan aslong as you didnt mind the constant falling because of the rocks that Melabrion threw when you had the cheek to try it out

Delirium
I assume you share some of the qualms about using Swords of souls? Then worry not as they appear to have followed the phantasmanomicons and vanished from the lands leaving only the ethereal amulet trader inside Tenebrions keep

[Lundar]

Mjollnir wrote:

<I>"1) will the results be shared with all exiles or just to the mystics?
If only the mystics are to get the results will they be shared with the rest of the exile population or kept to themselves with the rest of the mystic secrets? "</I>

I am not sure whether the 'Brions are going to share their results only with mystics, or with exiles in general, but we will share whatever information we learn regarding the orga stones, as we always have.

<I>"2) Will they tell us everything they find out or are they going to keep back some crucial part of their results which may be used against us?"</I>

The 'Brions have stated that they will share any important discoveries regarding the orga stones. We will have to trust the Brothers on this one.

<I>"Secondly the orga stones are similar to purgatory pendents in a way, they both transport people to another location and they both require training to use them without breaking."</I>

Similar, but with important differences. The purgatory pendants seem to have a strong connection with Purgatory, and allows exiles to travel between the planes. The orga stones seem to work only within our own plane.

<I>"I've heard tales of when Tenebrion first traded for some purgatory pendents (which was a much more popular deal since he was offering a weapon everybody could use not something for the few)"</I>

You are incorrect in this. The trade of purgatory pendants also received a great deal of resistance from exiles, perhaps an even greater ammount than the current trade. At first, Tenebrion tried to make a deal with the "Puddleby community," but the talks eventually broke down, and Tenebrion ended up making deals with indivisual exiles.

<I>"What is the limit to how many an orga stone can carry at once? can they send a whole army or only small groups? And doesnt the mystic using the stone get taken along for the ride?"</I>

There is no known limit to the number of orga stones that one can carry at a time, but only one can be used to hold a "mark" at a time. Orga stones require that all the indivisuals being teleported be cross shared, so the 'Brions most likely would only be able to transport a small force at best. And yes, the user of the stone is teleported along with those he or she wishes to teleport.

<I>"Is it just me or does anybody else think this thread is deteriorating into a slagging match (or flame war if you prefer)between Delirium and Drablak+Lundar?"</I>

Yes I realize this. All I wished to do was address Delirium's concerns, and quash a vile rumor regarding Tenebrion. Instead, it seems that all I have accomplished is solidifying her opposition to the trade. I will now cease trying to convince her of my viewpoint.

-Lundar<P>

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Farhope
Drablak, you go too far here. You accuse Delirium to work against Puddleby and to be a criminal. No, she opposes you, no more.

I oppose you also as I see what you push to be something unwise. Why do you that? not for the good of everyone (nobody does that) but to continue your studies in an easier way. Don't wait for any support from me anymore. Check your reading glasses Farhope, she behaves in a very weird way, her arguments are incoherent and she accused many good-willing exiles of a number of vile intentions. Moreover she displays signs of being posessed.
She opposes me and others who have always worked for Puddleby while she associates with people who are sworn supporter of those she calls criminals. And her own sisterhood made questionable dealings with these same people. I also observed firsthand the odd behavior of Tessa.

I am sorry you think I am supporting something unwise. I never tried to hide that I have personal interests in this. In fact, if you and Deli had taken the time to read the very first post in this discussion, I made it quite clear that I had personal interests in this. But if you think that I would support this deal if I thought it was bad for Puddleby then you don't know me well. I am saddened that you think so little of me.

[Ruen]

Could someone give additional background on the Sword of Souls? I take it that its a weapon than has some connection with Tenebrion and may be dangerous

[Aravir]

There is some information on the Sword of Souls in an old post to this forum:

http://www.windsofdawn.org/forum/showthread.html?s=&threadid=1045

[Delirium]

You say I am acting in a weird and incoherent way? Ha!

In your attempts to discredit me, you twist my words beyond breaking, and wind up telling lies! I pointed out a number of these in my previous post, but then you do the same thing again in your subsequent posts. If you are willing to so distort my statements which are plain here for all to see, how can we trust the accuracy of your other statements? You discredit yourself.

I never said I would not interfere with the actions of the Brion's minions. Concerning the WoD applicant of whom you spoke, I can only recall being on the same hunt as him once. That was a WoD clan hunt, which, as you should well know, are open to all who wish to come with us. Furthermore, the hunt in question was at Melabrions keep, and this exile tried to pursude the clan to hunt elsewhere. He was unable to deter us from hunting at MK, and may have even left early, but I don't recall clearly. I am adament in opposing all actions which might harm the well-being of our town, whether they be yours or some agent of the Brions. I would hardly call having hunted with someone once on an open hunt "associating" with them.

You may not be actively planning anything with the Brion's minions, but that does not change the fact that you and they are working towards the same goal, and in that way, you are indeed working with them. I stand in opposition to enhacing the power of the Brion brothers.

I think it may be possible you and Lundar think your intentions are good, but in that case, it would not be the first time that well-intentioned people were blinded by their own greed, in this case, taking the form of your thirst for knowledge, which as you say, you have not hidden. None the less, I consider such blindness criminal. I am not complete opposed to having an Etherial portal, but the cost the 'Brions ask for it is that we betray ourselves. To comply with such a cost is criminal.

So, when I said I would be willing to work with criminals to further a good cause, I was thinking partly of yourself and Lundar. I mean criminals by my definition, not yours. If you wish to blast me for being willing to help you and Lundar in other matters, well, so be it. However, that seems a tacit admission that at some level you do feel that what you are doing is wrong. As for me, I won't abandon friends just because I think their actions are missguided.

Finally, you also raise the issue of Tenebrions experiment again and accuse me of "condoning" it when I specifically said that I tried to pursuade those who I thought might listen to me *NOT* to participate. I am but a Vesper Via. There was little else I could do to stop the experiment from taking place, but what I could do, I did. As for Tessa acting strangely - when I first met her in the lands, before you were even exiled, she acted strangely. This was nothing new after the experiment. Also, Tessa worked long and hard to understand the dew infections and find a cure. Many of Puddleby's finest exiles tried to discredit her and many more came to view her as a crackpot. In the end, however, it was her efforts that saved us all from Qual, and revealed that those fine exiles had been working under Qual's influence. So if you wish to compare me to Tessa, go ahead. I take it as a compliment. I hope that I can endure as she did.

Yes, this discussion does seem to have degenerated. I think because, having failed to refute my arguments, those who support this trade can only try to discredit me. I do nai invent stories of demonic possesion. I would like to believe those who support this trade are otherwise honest indiviuals who have been led astray, though in the face of the recent attacks, I must admit to doubts.

Oh, Ruen - you can find what Tessa had to say about the sword of souls by searching old postings here. She was once a member of this clan.

-Delirium

[Delirium]

You say I am acting in a weird and incoherent way? Ha!

In your attempts to discredit me, you twist my words beyond breaking, and wind up telling lies! I pointed out a number of these in my previous post, but then you do the same thing again in your subsequent posts. If you are willing to so distort my statements which are plain here for all to see, how can we trust the accuracy of your other statements? You discredit yourself.

I never said I would not interfere with the actions of the Brion's minions. Concerning the WoD applicant of whom you spoke, I can only recall being on the same hunt as him once. That was a WoD clan hunt, which, as you should well know, are open to all who wish to come with us. Furthermore, the hunt in question was at Melabrions keep, and this exile tried to pursude the clan to hunt elsewhere. He was unable to deter us from hunting at MK, and may have even left early, but I don't recall clearly. I am adament in opposing all actions which might harm the well-being of our town, whether they be yours or some agent of the Brions. I would hardly call having hunted with someone once on an open hunt "associating" with them.

You may not be actively planning anything with the Brion's minions, but that does not change the fact that you and they are working towards the same goal, and in that way, you are indeed working with them. I stand in opposition to enhacing the power of the Brion brothers.

I think it may be possible you and Lundar think your intentions are good, but in that case, it would not be the first time that well-intentioned people were blinded by their own greed, in this case, taking the form of your thirst for knowledge, which as you say, you have not hidden. None the less, I consider such blindness criminal. I am not complete opposed to having an Etherial portal, but the cost the 'Brions ask for it is that we betray ourselves. To comply with such a cost is criminal.

So, when I said I would be willing to work with criminals to further a good cause, I was thinking partly of yourself and Lundar. I mean criminals by my definition, not yours. If you wish to blast me for being willing to help you and Lundar in other matters, well, so be it. However, that seems a tacit admission that at some level you do feel that what you are doing is wrong. As for me, I won't abandon friends just because I think their actions are missguided.

Finally, you also raise the issue of Tenebrions experiment again and accuse me of "condoning" it when I specifically said that I tried to pursuade those who I thought might listen to me *NOT* to participate. I am but a Vesper Via. There was little else I could do to stop the experiment from taking place, but what I could do, I did. As for Tessa acting strangely - when I first met her in the lands, before you were even exiled, she acted strangely. This was nothing new after the experiment. Also, Tessa worked long and hard to understand the dew infections and find a cure. Many of Puddleby's finest exiles tried to discredit her and many more came to view her as a crackpot. In the end, however, it was her efforts that saved us all from Qual, and revealed that those fine exiles had been working under Qual's influence. So if you wish to compare me to Tessa, go ahead. I take it as a compliment. I hope that I can endure as she did.

Yes, this discussion does seem to have degenerated. I think because, having failed to refute my arguments, those who support this trade can only try to discredit me. I do nai invent stories of demonic possesion. I would like to believe those who support this trade are otherwise honest indiviuals who have been led astray, though in the face of the recent attacks, I must admit to doubts.

Oh, Ruen - you can find what Tessa had to say about the sword of souls by searching old postings here. She was once a member of this clan.

-Delirium

[Ruen]

Originally posted by Aravir
There is some information on the Sword of Souls in an old post to this forum:

http://www.windsofdawn.org/forum/showthread.html?s=&threadid=1045

Thank you.

Tessa's arguments on that thread make a good deal of sense to me. I take it that the mystics don't share this view since they wish to trade with the 'brions for another such gift.

[Drablak]

Deli: you say your statements are plain for all to see and I agree. You oppose any deal with criminals yet would associates with criminals. I do not accept that you meant me and Lundar since I do not consider myself a criminal, and you certainly have not proven in any way that we are criminals. You might have meant your sisters since they have conducted a deal that you yourself considers a crime. You only hunted once with a brion-minion but you would welcome him in your clan, I call that association.

And the discussion degenerated when you started calling people criminals for doing something they consider the best compromise considering the alternatives.

Ruen: those who traded for Swords of Souls were fighters. The trade of Orga Stone for a portal is quite different. We know what the Stones are, and what they are capable of. We also know what a portal is and many use them regularly.

Also, we support the trade not only for a gift (which is for all of puddleby, not a single individual), but also because the Brions have repeatedly asked for this trade and have increased their threats to Puddleby over time if we could not come to an arrangement. They also threatened to close access to their islands and keeps where many fighters like to go to hunt. I even know a dwarven healer who goes there solo to coin hunt. This deal was proposed a very long time ago and the Brions have become more and more impatient in recent years. Supporting the trade is also to appease them and return our relations with them on a more neutral level (as opposed to increasingly beligerent level on their part).

For the record, I agree with Tessa's concerns with the SoS, but I think this is not related to this trade.

[Aravir]

Originally posted by Drablak
Also, we support the trade not only for a gift (which is for all of puddleby, not a single individual), but also because the Brions have repeatedly asked for this trade and have increased their threats to Puddleby over time if we could not come to an arrangement. They also threatened to close access to their islands and keeps where many fighters like to go to hunt. I even know a dwarven healer who goes there solo to coin hunt. This deal was proposed a very long time ago and the Brions have become more and more impatient in recent years. Supporting the trade is also to appease them and return our relations with them on a more neutral level (as opposed to increasingly beligerent level on their part).

This seems to me like a rather good arguement against the deal.

[Sunblaze]

I got a weird feeling that I know what is going to be on that new island, Drablak. Okay, I cheated by using a image viewer. [:D]

Personally, I think both sides of this "Orga Stone Trade" debate are completely insane. People are starting to have enough of it and the debate is ruining the game. I like to sue the people who made up that quest of "Brions wanting the orga stones" under the fact it is breaking up friendships and the people who play the game.

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Drablak
I am not a criminal and I do not engage in criminal activities.
By definition of being an exile, you are a criminal, and thus by definition all your activities are the activities of criminals.

And in response to Delirium, we cannot refute arguments that do not exist. You seem to oppose the deal for the sake of opposing the deal and causing trouble. So far the only claims you have made were ad hominem, unproven attacks against the character of the Brions.

Does Delirium remind anybody else of Monty Python's argument sketch?

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Hidden
By definition of being an exile, you are a criminal, and thus by definition all your activities are the activities of criminals.That would be true if I agreed with Moebius' definition of a crime. I was exiled because I taught things that the mad emperor found may endanger his emperorship. I don't consider myself a criminal.

[Drax]

Apologies in advance for the aside in your debate:


Originally posted by Drablak


Ruen: those who traded for Swords of Souls were fighters. The trade of Orga Stone for a portal is quite different. We know what the Stones are, and what they are capable of. We also know what a portal is and many use them regularly.

<snipped>

For the record, I agree with Tessa's concerns with the SoS, but I think this is not related to this trade.



And, for the record, I also have learned well what the Sword of Souls is, and what it is capable of.

It is my belief, that:

* Souls are born with some purpose. Life is the pursuit of that purpose or accomplishment. Some call this, "destiny." I think it's better described as a "pattern" in the fabric of our collective lives.

* In life, accomplishment is made or missed. In death, that purpose is misplaced. If the body dies before the soul's purpose is fulfilled, that purpose still exists. Unfortunately, the soul cannot continue without the body. Therefore, as the body dies, the soul disintegrates.

* Last, even if accomplishment is attained in life, it can be forgotten in death.

Therefore,

* It is a noble mission to 'fix' the wayward path of souls, which forces them to dissipate. To give them new purpose, and empower them, united.

* To seek out wayward souls, and to give them a new purpose, is just. The sword of souls is a tool, that enables that end.

Is it not noble to be the caretaker of the souls of the dead? Not to be their master, but their vessel?!?

-------------

It is my belief, that this is the way of the world. And, such is the purpose of the Sword of Souls. Therefore, the life of the Soul Seeker is as a difficult road, oft misunderstood by others. We are forced to bear the scorn of the unenlightened.

But, as with much of life, there is still reward. This road is paved with the cheers and revelry of the saved... these are the newly reborn.

-------------

Hope this helps some of you understand.

-Drax

[Hidden]

Drablak, nobody gives a whoopty crap about whether or not you THINK of yourself as a criminal. Can you imagine if the law worked like that?

Policeman: Did you just kill that man in cold blood?
Drablak: Yessir, but I don't believe it was a crime. He was annoying me.
Policeman: Oh. Well. Carry on then.

Fact is, you broke the law and that makes you no different than the rest of us. I was exiled for much the same reason as you, but I don't have the arrogance to think that just because I am an educator of sorts that I'm above the law.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Hidden
Drablak, nobody gives a whoopty crap about whether or not you THINK of yourself as a criminal. Can you imagine if the law worked like that?Why are you replying if you don't give a whoopty crap?Fact is, you broke the law and that makes you no different than the rest of us. I was exiled for much the same reason as you, but I don't have the arrogance to think that just because I am an educator of sorts that I'm above the law. That's because you have the naivete to think that Moebius is a lawfully elected tyrant? You think that's a democracy? You mean you can't imagine there can be injustice in the world?

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Drablak
Why are you replying if you don't give a whoopty crap?
As a mystic, it is your job to obscure the truth under a pile of bullcrap. As a follower of Mak'ros, it is my job to dig the truth out from said pile.

That's because you have the naivete to think that Moebius is a lawfully elected tyrant? You think that's a democracy? You mean you can't imagine there can be injustice in the world?Did you elect Kahn St'ple? How 'bout judge Haengemie? No? Well, they're still the law around here. You're missing the point if you don't think Mobius is in charge of the Ascendancy, however much you like it or not. This may come as a surprise, but the world isn't centered around you. A crime, however unjust the law is, is still a crime until that law is overturned.

[Drax]

A reminder for those who wish to participate:

Here is the date for the upcoming FMOCR (pulled from the newsgroup):

Friday, the 4th of October at 7:09pm 'till 9:09pm (PST)

Good hunting!

[:)]

-Drax

[Delirium]

Drablak,

Hidden may be rather crass in the way he points it out, but he is correct. Criminal is not a label you can accept or deny for yourself. Few criminals want the label, and those who do are generally of the sort I generally avoid associating with. The theif who steals to feed his starving family is still a thief, even if the reason he hasn't enough food is that his lord levied taxes that were too heavy upon him and refused to hear his plea for food. In an unjust land, the just are criminals. I assume I too must have committed some crime in the eyes of that silly emporer to be here, but I have no memories of what that might have been. In fact, since I can remember the first thousand or so years of my life, but have no memory of the Asendancy piror to my arrival here, I can only assume that more than 500 years are missing from my memories.

As to Hidden, yes, I have speculated as to the motives of those who support the trade, for which you take me to task. I find it curious that you do not similarly take Drablak to task for his fanciful fabrication that I am somehow possesed. But you are wrong that there is no substance to my arguments.

If you suspected a banker of embezzlement, would you deposit your money with him? Even if the evidence was only suggestive enough for an investigation, I would not wish to deal with such a banker until he had been cleared of the charges.

In the case of the brothers, there is a body of evidence against them, at least enough for an investigation, and I think somewhat more than that. Yet the mystic council seems reluctant to press the brothers for answers, or, if they have the answers, chooses not to let the rest of us know them. Here, once again, are the issues I find troubling:

1) Books made of Sylvan skin. While it is my heart-held belief that these books were, infact, created by the brothers and that the brothers killed many in the creation of these books, I do recognize that I cannot, at this time, prove it. Lundar and Drablak have shown a complete unwillingness to investigate this issue, based only on a staement that the books were "collected," which, as I have perviously pointed out, does nothing to prove Tenebrion did not have a hand in their creation. However, even if they are guiltless in the creation of the books, I would still oppose dealing with any who held sylvan remains in their possession until such time as the remains were laid to rest. For all I know, some of the skins from which those books were made could be of my relatives. My city seems to have vanished, for none here have heard of it, and I have met no one I remember knowing before I came here. Even if they are not my relatives, I feel a moral obligation to see those remains laid to rest.

2) Tenebrion employs a canibal as a cook. I have yet to see the trade supporters make up an excuse for this, so I don't think simply pointing this out is sufficient for now.

3) Both Tenebrion and Melabrion have tortured exiles (Nunul and Cradlesong). Perhaps the others have as well, but I have not heard of it. I do not consider torture acceptable under any circumstance. It would be one thing if they were acting in self-defense, or locked them up in their dungeons for trespassing, but Nunul had come to help, and Cradlesong was tortured for days on end.

4) Tenebrion and Umbrion have both been responsible for multiple attacks on our town. The brothers appologists would have you believe that these attacks were simple retaliation for trespassing, but only a few in town were responsible, but all in town were harmed by the attacks. Such attacks show a dissregard for the lives of the innocent.

5) They have a disregard for the lives of their own servants. Tenebrion doesn't care if exiles kill his guards since he can "easily get more."

6) They enslave others. I am of the oppinion that no person should be enslaved by another.

7) We have one of the brother's staements that if we knew what they were up to, we would try to stop them. Yes, others of the brothers have tried to brush this asside, saying that while we might initially oppose whatever it is they want to do, if we fully understood we would support them. If that is the case, why has there been no effort to provide a full complete explanation, and why have the mystics seemingly failed to press for one?

The list goes on, but my time is limited. There is, at the very least, ample evidence to investigate the brothers before this trade is completed, and it is my belief that a complete investigation would find the brothers guilty of a great many reprehensible crimes. Therefore, I oppose any trade with them.

-Delirium

[Delirium]

As Drax is so kind to point out, we have a FMOCR upon us. Now, it has come to my attention that if the raid is not successful, the orga may get a stone for themselves, and I certainly do not want to help the orga in any way. This raid occurs during my hunt group's regular time, and the full mystic who hunts with us has proposed aiding the FMOCR. Since I view the Orga and and Tenebrion with similar disfavour, I have no objection to this plan for our hunt group. I would likewise encourage others who may feel as I do about the trade to aid in the FMOCR and kill the Orga Magician. Afterwards, we can occupy the chamber to ensure a stone is obtained for neither the Orga nor the brothers.

My hunt group may change its mind and choose to hunt elsewhere since I doubt they all share my views on this matter, but I have no doubt that the members of FB have the skill to get me to OC4 during a FMOCR. Another complication in these plans is that spirit matters may prevent my participation, and it would not seem right to tell others to do what I am not able to. I suppose that those who feel as strongly as I do might try to help all exiles with the FMOCR reach OC4, though, and then do as I would. I must leave it up to each individual to choose as they see fit. FMOCRs are not always a major time commitment, and can take less than 1 OOC hour. Even 1st circle figters can be helpful in such raids by keeping the plentiful rat populations found in the OCs under control. Healers of any circle always seem to be welcome. Do not think you are not strong enough to do anything.

-Delirium

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Delirium
As to Hidden, yes, I have speculated as to the motives of those who support the trade, for which you take me to task. I find it curious that you do not similarly take Drablak to task for his fanciful fabrication that I am somehow possesed. But you are wrong that there is no substance to my arguments.I find Drablak's claims to be even loonier than yours. Not even worth arguing about, because it is so obviously false. You've been a nutcase much longer than the 'Brions have been around. [:p]

2) Tenebrion employs a canibal as a cook. I have yet to see the trade supporters make up an excuse for this, so I don't think simply pointing this out is sufficient for now.Has he ever actually cooked, or even attempted to cook anyone? I think he's just kidding around with us, personally.

3) Both Tenebrion and Melabrion have tortured exiles (Nunul and Cradlesong). Perhaps the others have as well, but I have not heard of it. I do not consider torture acceptable under any circumstance. It would be one thing if they were acting in self-defense, or locked them up in their dungeons for trespassing, but Nunul had come to help, and Cradlesong was tortured for days on end.Cradlesong was severely trespassing. Nunul has not provided enough data for me to make a decision either way.

4) Tenebrion and Umbrion have both been responsible for multiple attacks on our town.Allow me to point out that this was in the very early stages of our relationship with the 'Brions. Both sides were still probing the other's capabilities.

5) They have a disregard for the lives of their own servants.May I point out that neither do we?

6) They enslave others. I am of the oppinion that no person should be enslaved by another.Have any of said slaves ever expressed unhappiness? It is possible to live contentedly in a position of servitude.

7) We have one of the brother's staements that if we knew what they were up to, we would try to stop them.I challenge any opposer of the deal to give me even one way, on the off-chance that the stones did not break in their untrained hands, that they could use them to harm us. Since they request 6 stones, I'm apt to think that they want them for no other reason than personal transportation, which is harmless from my point of view.

[Mjollnir]

On both sides of the argument

Melabrion didnt torture Nunul, i should know i was there.(unless Nunul has stated somewhere that he was tortured by Melabrion in which case i retract the first part of this message)
Melabrion DID spend time throwing rocks at Nunul and knocking him over. but never enough to cause him to fall hard.
He DID also raise Nunul rather than just pepper his fallen corpse with rocks and left Nunul in full health when he finished the conference he was holding and from the things he said at the meeting i believe that he was just playing with Nunul.

Umbrion on the other hand
Did torture Sylph in an effort to reclaim a kyuem piece (which had been stolen from him in the first place)
Did not raise her but just kept flaming until Sylph was severly PND, he also threatened to force her to drink a nasty slave inorder to terrorise her into handing over the piece and when he had finished meeting with us he left her to rot in his conference room.

Personally i think that Melabrion is more likely to treat with us more fairly than some of his brothers, we do not cause him all that much trouble and did rescue his miners and keep his mines clear enough to put up a magic barrier across the river.
Umbrion is a brutal psychopathic killer who woud gladly wipe us off the face of these islands, (which he would do if he had the power and if he had the power he wouldnt need us to get the orga stones)

[Hidden]

Don't take the 'Brions at face value, Mjollnir. Not all is as it seems.

[Delirium]

First of all, calling someone a "nutcase" is an ad hominem attack. Shame on you Hidden![;)]

Second, Hidden's loyalties in this matter are no longer hidden. He is simply another lacky of the Mystic council, as revealed by events during the last FMOCR.

Falinea's Blade, the hunt group of which I am a member, not only participated in the FMOCR, but actually formed the core of the raid. One of our members led the raid while others played key roles. Honestly, had I known our group would be so important to the success of the raid, I would have tried to get the group to hunt elsewhere. Many of those on the raid knew of my intentions, as several have participated in this discussion here, and I had informed the Blades of my intentions, including the full mystic in the group. As became clear once we reached OC4 and the situation was nearly under control, they had made plans themselves, and tried to surround and block me. Unfortunately for them, my years in exile have made me a skilled runner, especially all those solo rescues I have done. I found it somewhat problematic that I only knew the approximate location of the stone room, but it did eventually occur to me that it was behind the large group of exiles sitting in a barrier formation. The barrier was not complete, however, and I was able to squeeze through into the stone room. There, despite the curses of those who would betray us to Tenebrion and his brothers, I made my stand. Alas, none there came to my aid. If only a few had been there to work with me in OC4, we could have prevented the betrayers from obtaining a stone. As it was, the mystic council and their lackies found it difficult to pull me out of the chamber, and they had to drag me all the way out.

Once they dragged me out, and my hope of thwarting their vile plan was dashed, they chose add insult to injury, and I was sued by Hidden, who acted in concert with Lundar. I was whisked away to court. I find it interesting that, once again, the mystic council leaves the presentation of their case up to a lacky, rather than presenting the case through one of their own members.

However, although the raid obtained a stone, I gained a small victory in that the court found me innocent, despite the fact that I found myself tounge-tied, and Hidden called two witnesses against me, while I chose to call none. The precident has been set - the court found that it was not a crime to try to stop the mystic council from obtaining stones to trade with the 'Brion brothers. Perhaps others will take heart from this precident and a larger group will succeed in the next raid where I alone failed in this one.

-Delirium

[Kiriel]

Just to clarify Delirium as I was with Hidden before he sued you. Lundar was the one responsible for being ready to sue you if the need arose but some technical difficulty prevented him from doing so. Hidden, who has made plain his support for the orga stone trade, sued you since Lundar was having difficulty, but it was not the plan of the mystics to have Hidden sue you initially.

Personally I'm not for the stone trade although I've chosen not to get involved in the fighting over it. I wasn't really thrilled that Hidden called me as a witness, but all he was asking me to do was state the truth of what you posted on the forum, so that's what I did.

[Lundar]

Delirium writes:

<I>"Once they dragged me out, and my hope of thwarting their vile plan was dashed, they chose add insult to injury, and I was sued by Hidden, who acted in concert with Lundar. I was whisked away to court. I find it interesting that, once again, the mystic council leaves the presentation of their case up to a lacky, rather than presenting the case through one of their own members."</I>

First of all, the "council" had nothing to do with this FMOCR or this courtcase. I was acting in the interests of the FMOCR party, who let me know that you had managed to tag along with the raiders, and I stayed behind in town to take you to court in the event that you tried to sabotage the raid. However, for some reason, Constance would not let me sue you. I asked Hidden to help me out, and he was able to successfully take you to trial. You can read a transcript of the courtcase <A HREF="http://www.free-conversant.com/lundar/transcript1" TARGET="_new">here</A>, on my scrolls.

One interesting thing you say during the case: "The trade should not be allowed to proceed untill we can all have a say." This coming from the person who was seemingly opposed to any dealings with the 'Brions whatsoever. So which one is it? Do you oppose the 'Brions completely, or do you just want to regonegotiate the trade? If it is the latter, I would like to see an actual executable plan for how all exiles can "have a say" in the matter of teleportation stones.

-Lundar<P>

[Mjollnir]

It isnt my place to ask this but i think it would be useful for all of us people who are on the fence of the orga stone trade.
Is it possible for the 2 parties to elect a single spokesperson who would then state a summery of their arguments for and against the proposed trade with the Brions?
Or could they message a single person with their arguments who would then post the arguments and the counter-arguments?

Delirium and either Lundar or Drablak seem to be the most vocal in their arguments and seem to be the best candidates but could the posts be kept clear of the personal attacks on each other and just state their main points clearly and concisely?

[Hidden]

For the record, I still loathe the council, and at least 75% of full mystics. I support the trade, but I am no lackey of the council.

And since Puddleby Court Juries are unsalvageably biased, no victory for either side means anything to precident. I consider it a win for the good side, since it got your sorry rear out of the camps.

I will be personally attending the next raid (since it does not interfere with my hunting group), and will see to it that neither you, nor any of your rabble-rousing friends are allowed in.

[Aravir]

In addition to the discussion here, there was also a long discussion (http://www.free-conversant.com/aravir/384/) in my notebook. It's ended now, and covered some different ground from the discussion here.

[Farhope]

Congratulations Delirium for your actions!
I was not around for the FMOCR, like always :-(

I support you totally!
Yes, I can not accept (even if Neige, Zorton and Robin think it is not a problem when it was Manticore) that orgas have the stone for them.
Yes, I can not accept that we trade them to the 'Brions without knowing much more about how they will use the stones and for what purposes (even if the unwise or greedy ones think it is not a problem).

I hope I will be able to help you another time.
Keep the good work!

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Hidden

Cradlesong was severely trespassing.

Cradlesong tripped and fell into the uppermost chamber while attempting (with a group) a rescue. He had the bad luck to be the closest to Tenebrion and recieved the bulk of his wrath.
Tresspassing is one thing Hidden, Torture is another.
While Cradle was being fried, Tenebrion repeatedly yelled at him to get out of his demense, knowing full-well that it was impossible. Cradlesong was unable to successfully depart. Normally, when a victim has fallen, the attack ends. Tenebrion never ended his assault on Cradle even after being fallen for days.

Originally posted by Hidden

Nunul has not provided enough data for me to make a decision either way.


I think Mjolnir covered this one. The event happened in his audience chamber. I only remember waking in full health with a dim memory of being felled then healed...MANY times. Some may call what he did "fun" and some may call it "torture".
By what do you define torture?

-Sticky Dorf

[Drax]

Originally posted by Delirium

(snipped)

...The precident has been set - the court found that it was not a crime to try to stop the mystic council from obtaining stones to trade with the 'Brion brothers. Perhaps others will take heart from this precident and a larger group will succeed in the next raid where I alone failed in this one.




Sadly, I think Delirium is correct. A greater number of disruptive exiles could have broken our opportunity to caputure the stone. Thankfully, I don't think such a group exists.

While the court has betrayed the efforts of so many, real justice was dealt in the reward. As I understand, the council now has 2 of 6 orga stones. And, the opportunity for a third lies just around the corner.

I look forward to that night, when our victory will be halfway done.

-Drax

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Delirium
Many of those on the raid knew of my intentions...

-Delirium

Thoroughly OOC ...

Thanks, Deli! I haven't had that much fun on a FMOCR in years! Brilliantly played.

BRAVA!

Dandelion

[Delirium]

OOC:

Thanks Dandelion[:)] . Many who were there expressed similar sentiments. But, OOC, how would you have felt if Delirium, doing little more than she did, had succeeded?

IC:

Having gone over the events with others who feel as I do, we have devised some strategies by which a small group or possibly even a single exile could prevent a stone from being obtained by a mystic. Alas, while the Mystics may now have been suscesful in a 3rd attempt, I think they already have enough stones to make the trade. I thought at least 4 mystics had stones prior to this set of raids. They may not, since I've heard these things do break, and the Mystics might not go through with the trade if they had to give up their stones, so it is still worth trying to prevent further stones from being gathered.

[Aravir]

Did the most recent attempt to get a stone succeed?

[Liolel]

I've been completly silent in this debate so far. I think that now it is time to voice my opinion. I've been undicided for a while but now I know where I stand.

I stand for the trade, but not because I trust the Brions or because either side has made a better argurment but for a friend.

My very first friend in these lands was worldwalker. I met him when he came to greet me while my spirt drifted into the strange land called agratis during the voyage here.

He as some of you may know is a planer traveler who came here and is now stuck here. He has talked to the brions and he thinks that if he can get to the 5th or 6th sphere of the etheral plane he can get back home. But I doubt that would ever happen if the trade doesn't go through.

That is my opinion but its still open to change. Yet it matter little as I'm a person whos never been to a fmocr nor is likely to go to one before this is resolved. But I've put my stand out interpt it as you would like.

[Mjollnir]

Assuming we give them the stones, have the brions said when they'll construct this portal for us or how long it will take?
Do we have any guarentees that they will uphold their part of the bargin at all?
And what about the other 80% (or whatever) of exiles who dont hunt the ethereal plane but do help out on the FMOCRs what do they get aside from the chance to fall in a new place where they will be quickly eaten to shreds?

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Mjollnir
Assuming we give them the stones, have the brions said when they'll construct this portal for us or how long it will take?
Do we have any guarentees that they will uphold their part of the bargin at all?
And what about the other 80% (or whatever) of exiles who dont hunt the ethereal plane but do help out on the FMOCRs what do they get aside from the chance to fall in a new place where they will be quickly eaten to shreds?


Heh...
What a completely funny OOC thing it would be if after giving the stones to the brions, a NPC arrived in Puddleby claiming that the building permits have not yet gone thru to begin to build it.
Hell, maybe it will be constructed inside the outpost [;)]

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Mjollnir
Assuming we give them the stones, have the brions said when they'll construct this portal for us or how long it will take?
Do we have any guarentees that they will uphold their part of the bargin at all?
And what about the other 80% (or whatever) of exiles who dont hunt the ethereal plane but do help out on the FMOCRs what do they get aside from the chance to fall in a new place where they will be quickly eaten to shreds? I am not sure how long it will take, but the new island is forming so I would think it shouldn't take too long to have the portal after the deadline.
And if you can actually help in a FMOCR, you can probably help on the ethereal plane as well. I am not sure about your 80% at all. As with most things, it depends a lot on your training and some people that are useful at FMOCR aren't that usefull on the EP and vice versa.

[Aravir]

What does a new island have to do with portals?

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Delirium
OOC:

Thanks Dandelion[:)] . Many who were there expressed similar sentiments. But, OOC, how would you have felt if Delirium, doing little more than she did, had succeeded?

That sounds like such a simple question! I wish I had as simple an answer.

It would depend, to a large degree, on what the "little more" turned out to be. What impressed the hell out of me was that Delirium very nearly managed to pull it off, without using any "abusable game mechanics.*" She also managed the whole thing with no name-calling, finger-pointing, tantrums or other nastiness. It was truly a breath of fresh air.

Even though she didn't succeed this time, it sure spiced things up!

Whether or not she succeeds, regardless of what the "little more" is, it will make things so much more interesting.

But ... if she succeeds using the same tactics, following the same "rules" she followed this time, it will be so much less complicated, so much more ... tidy ... and, in my opinion, a much larger victory. Does that make any sense?

*bleh! I don't want to argue what's abuse an' what's not here ... it's already raging in the NG.

Dande

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Delirium
I thought at least 4 mystics had stones prior to this set of raids.

I don't imagine the 'Brions would be interested in trading for "used" stones.

Dande

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Aravir
What does a new island have to do with portals? The new island is where the Brions said they would put the portal.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Dandelion
I don't imagine the 'Brions would be interested in trading for "used" stones.I don't know if it's the case, but I think stones are somewhat like chains. A chain doesn't wear down with use afaik so I figure the stone wouldn't either.

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Drablak
I don't know if it's the case, but I think stones are somewhat like chains. A chain doesn't wear down with use afaik so I figure the stone wouldn't either.

I don't know if it's the case or not either, Drabby ... I'm guessing!

Dande

[Drax]

Originally posted by Liolel

I stand for the trade, but not because I trust the Brions or because either side has made a better argurment but for a friend.



Liolel,

I think it's a very noble thing you're doing---to set aside these petty arguments, and support your friend.

Noble, indeed... and brave. To take such a stance is surely one that will be met with scorn, by those who don't share your purely altruistic perspective. Though I'm sure you will not need it, you have my support during these times. Moreover, my deep respect.

Humbly,

-Drax

[Hidden]

Stones do not "wear", per se, but they do have charge levels. Still, one gained from a FMOCR would be indistinguishable from one that's been in the hands of mystics for a while unless it had been recently used.

[Mjollnir]

I dont know whether or not the mystics or the other parties involved will answer this but I have some questions;

1)How many stones do the mystics have for trading?

2)Has there been a specific date set for the trade?
If so
2a)When is it and will the trade be an open affair with the general population being allowed to spectate?

3)Does anybody have any definate plans for what to do with the reward once we get it and what are they?

[Lundar]

Replying to:

<I>"1)How many stones do the mystics have for trading?"</I>

So far we have collected 3 of the 6 stones necessary to complete the trade with the 'Brions.

<I>"2)Has there been a specific date set for the trade?"</I>

The actual date for when we hand the stones over to the 'Brions will depend on a number of factors, including how soon we are able to collect the teleportation stones.

<I>"2a)When is it and will the trade be an open affair with the general population being allowed to spectate?"</I>

Yes.

<I>"3)Does anybody have any definate plans for what to do with the reward once we get it and what are they?"</I>

The "rewards" for the trade are: 1) a permanent portal to the ethereal plane, 2) knowledge of how to construct/destruct our own portals, 3) any knowledge that the 'Brions may be able to glean about the stones, and 4) improved relations with the 'Brions. I am not aware of any "plans" that other mystics or exiles might have concerning these items, but I certainly plan on using the portal to further explore the Ethereal Plane.

I usually write about any significant developments in the 'Brion trade on my webscrolls: http://www.free-conversant.com/lundar/. Paramedic's Thoomcare scrolls also report updates on the 'Brion situation, as well as other up to date Puddleby news: http://thoomcare.com/.

-Lundar<P>

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Lundar
The "rewards" for the trade are: 1) a permanent portal to the ethereal plane, 2) knowledge of how to construct/destruct our own portals, 3) any knowledge that the 'Brions may be able to glean about the stones, and 4) improved relations with the 'Brions. I am not aware of any "plans" that other mystics or exiles might have concerning these items, but I certainly plan on using the portal to further explore the Ethereal Plane.

4. Where will the portal be constructed? Will there be a choice. If so, who will decide where it resides?

5. Who will have access to traversing the portal?

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Nunul


4. Where will the portal be constructed? Will there be a choice. If so, who will decide where it resides?

5. Who will have access to traversing the portal? 4. On the new island rising in the ocean south of Centaur. I think the Brions decided.

5. Everyone as far as I know.

[Aravir]

Originally posted by Drablak
5. Everyone as far as I know.

In the discussion (http://www.free-conversant.com/aravir/514) in my notebook, Callia admitted that the portal would have "some sort of security measure." I don't know if who would have access is part of the Council's deal, or if it would be decided later by whoever controls the "security measure," but it seems pretty clear not everyone would have access (or else there would be no reason for security measures).

[Drax]

Originally posted by Aravir

...but it seems pretty clear not everyone would have access (or else there would be no reason for security measures).


Well, that's a relief. It would be unfortunate if unprepared or unwitting exiles wandered into the portal, without much chance of survival.

Thank goodness there is going to be some kind of security, to ensure the community's welfare.

-Drax

[Opxe]

Originally posted by Drax
Thank goodness there is going to be some kind of security, to ensure the community's welfare.

Does anyone have any idea of how these security measures would work, or what they would be?

Would the security be controlled by the Brions, the Mystic Council, or someone else?

[Mjollnir]

This deal has been on the table for 8 years how did the Brions know about the island that is currently raising? or sdo they have a hand in the fact that this island is appearing now just when the deal is finally going through?

as for the security measures i agree that there need to be some sort of preventative measures to stop every newbie exile from stumbling into the ethereal plane but if they get too restrictive or if they are controlled solely by either the mystic council or the brions people arnt going to be happy.

The subjects of mystic secrecy and whether or not we can trust the brions have raged throughout this debate and leaving the control of the portal to either of those groups alone will just fan those flames and bring the arguments back to the fore.

[Lundar]

Replying to:

<I>"This deal has been on the table for 8 years how did the Brions know about the island that is currently raising? or sdo they have a hand in the fact that this island is appearing now just when the deal is finally going through?"</I>

Yes, the 'Brions do indeed have a hand in the creation of this island.

<I>"as for the security measures i agree that there need to be some sort of preventative measures to stop every newbie exile from stumbling into the ethereal plane but if they get too restrictive or if they are controlled solely by either the mystic council or the brions people arnt going to be happy."</I>

I believe that the details of the security measures are still being worked out. I agree that some form of security measures are necessary, not just to keep ignorant exiles out, but also to keep our enemies, such as the Darshak and Orga, from making use of our portal.

-Lundar<P>

[Drablak]

I think a way to keep the newer exiles safe is a good idea. Maybe something like a doorman? The same as near the game preserve maybe, except newer exiles are left outside instead of older ones?

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Drablak
4. On the new island rising in the ocean south of Centaur. I think the Brions decided.

5. Everyone as far as I know.

4.1. Will this island be behind an illusion? Will it be as difficult to reach as the EP is currently?

4.2. The exiles didn't get a choice where the portal was to be constructed?

5.1. Does anyone have more information to add to this one? Is it indeed everyone?

6. Can a lone non-mystic exile get from TC to the portal solo and enter it?

[Lundar]

Replying to:

<I>"4.1. Will this island be behind an illusion? Will it be as difficult to reach as the EP is currently?"</I>

As I wrote in my previous post, I believe the details of this are still being worked on. The problem with illusions is that in recent times, the 'Brions own magic has been failing. Thus, Tenebrion's Isle, Melabrion's Isle, and Kizmia's Isle (which were once protected by illusions) are now accessible to us. We probably wouldn't want a portal behind an illusion that might fail at any time.

To answer your second question, reaching the Ethereal Plane should be much easier with the permanent portal (which is the point of having such a portal).

<I>"4.2. The exiles didn't get a choice where the portal was to be constructed?"</I>

Ethereal Portals (to my understanding) can only be constructed in locations where there are strong currents of ether. The ocean is one of the few places with such a current, which the 'Brions have access to.

<I>"5.1. Does anyone have more information to add to this one? Is it indeed everyone [that will have access to the portal]?"</I>

Everyone who has a reasonable chance of surviving on the other side, yes.

<I>"6. Can a lone non-mystic exile get from TC to the portal solo and enter it?"</I>

To my understanding, there will be no hostile creatures on this new isle, if that's what you're asking.

-Lundar<P>

[Lorikeet]

A whole island with just a portal and no creatures? Sounds like a waste to me.

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Lundar
Replying to:

<I>"4.1. Will this island be behind an illusion? Will it be as difficult to reach as the EP is currently?"</I>

As I wrote in my previous post, I believe the details of this are still being worked on. The problem with illusions is that in recent times, the 'Brions own magic has been failing. Thus, Tenebrion's Isle, Melabrion's Isle, and Kizmia's Isle (which were once protected by illusions) are now accessible to us. We probably wouldn't want a portal behind an illusion that might fail at any time.

To answer your second question, reaching the Ethereal Plane should be much easier with the permanent portal (which is the point of having such a portal).

<I>"4.2. The exiles didn't get a choice where the portal was to be constructed?"</I>

Ethereal Portals (to my understanding) can only be constructed in locations where there are strong currents of ether. The ocean is one of the few places with such a current, which the 'Brions have access to.

<I>"5.1. Does anyone have more information to add to this one? Is it indeed everyone [that will have access to the portal]?"</I>

Everyone who has a reasonable chance of surviving on the other side, yes.

<I>"6. Can a lone non-mystic exile get from TC to the portal solo and enter it?"</I>

To my understanding, there will be no hostile creatures on this new isle, if that's what you're asking.

-Lundar<P>


OK...I tire of dancing (too many dorfs have 2 left feet you see...)

a. Who is/will be working out the details with the 'Brions?

b. Do/will non-mystics have a voice/vote in the negotiations?

c. Will passage to/through the portal be in the hands of mystics or might there be a Sarir that will judge worthiness to pass.
(OOC: will we be relying on PCs or NPS to gain entrance)
With the recent discussions of available opening-mystics in the lands, no matter how small a concern...it is still a concern.

-DA Dorf

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Lorikeet
A whole island with just a portal and no creatures? Sounds like a waste to me.

Maroon says "Hello Lady Lorikeet! I am collecting coins and materials for an entrance through this wall which bars passage to that shiney new portal beyond. Hold out 500c or Wood or Stone to donate."


(two IC years later)


Maroon says "Hello Lady Lorikeet! We have all materials needed for the construction of the gateway through this wall to access the dusty old portal beyond. We are now just waiting for the permits to go through. It should be any day now!"


(an additionall two IC years pass...)


Maroon says "Hello Lady Lorikeet! We are sorry for the delay. The dorfs in charge of the construction of this gateway are still trying to decide what color mortar to use. It should be any day now!"

[Lorikeet]

lol Too true, Nunul :D

[Luminary]

Originally posted by Nunul:
b. Do/will non-mystics have a voice/vote in the negotiations?

c. Will passage to/through the portal be in the hands of mystics or might there be a Sarir that will judge worthiness to pass.


In answer to "b": Yes. What would be your suggestions for security of the Portal Isle?

To address "c": The reason security measures are necessary is to prevent unnecessary departs, and possibly, pendant-ing from the Ethereal Plane to Purgatory, as it appears that these actions cause a permanent weakening of the boundary between the two planes.

I can think of several situations where passage should, and shouldn't be prevented. I believe that a "security measure" should be able to differentiate between, at least, the following.

Case 1: A new exile wishes to repeatedly depart from the EP, goes through the portal, falls, and departs. Repeat 100s of times. (Note: the new exile would depart to the altar on Thieves' Island to avoid the repeated boat fees.)

Case 2: A 4th circle healer becomes bored, and decides to see what pendant-ing 100s of times from the EP would do.

Case 3: A very high-level exile, one who bricks and hits everything there and can Troilus faster than the lightning can damage them, wants to try solo-ing the EP.

Case 4: A high-level group wishes to hunt there.

Case 4a: The high-level group has a low-level exile who is an expert in Ethereal studies, with them.

Case 5: A mid-level group wishes to test their skills.

Case 6: A single Mid-level fighter wishes to test his/her skills.

Case 7: Relations between the 'brions and Exiles take a turn for the worse. The 'brions order all Sarirs to stop helping Exiles.

So, what are people's ideas for a pass/no-pass security measure for the Portal Isle?

Luminary

[Kiriel]

Well one possibility could be to have an approval system for entering similar to the newbie hunting preserve (where you have to visit Bick to get approval) and the person you must visit to get approval could be somewhere slightly dangerous (like TK) so that newbies wouldn't stumble in there alone, but anyone could get in without too much trouble if the need arose to bring them. I'm not quite sure how long the approval from Bick lasts but I think one storm would be appropriate in this case. I think this would be the safest balance between folks blindly stumbling into danger and having to jump through a lot of hoops for entrance.

[Connie_Crete]

Ima thinkin anybudy what will be there alla time /npc/ kin be bribed ta leave by tha 'brions should relations go south.

I'd think ya would do a combo o pf and centaur check. Have an exile with a Ethereal amulet "open" tha door and it stays "open" about as long as a pf does. Don't make it like centaur where everybudy gotta show tha amulet because that will irritate tha pepples what has different priorities fer their inventory slots.

/ooc/ This continues the philosophy of group dynamics and player controlled destiny that is fundamental to CL /end ooc/

Ifn ya wanna solo hunt, ya gits a key - Ethereal amulet. Ifn ya wants a group, make sure onea tha pepples has tha same key. Ifn ya wants ta be a new exile ya kin still "stumble in" but it wont be no accident.

Connie
/action who be lookin fer that liberrian what has hid her keg.

[Robin Greyhawk]

Most of the automatic mechanisms suggestioned would fail to keep out the determined snert.

Illusions have the advantage that they require someone to make a decision to allow a group or individual to pass. I doubt the ethereal plane will become an impulse hunting ground so the relatively small number of openers shouldn't be a serious problem. However, as Lundar points out, the weakening of the Brions' illusions means that this mechanism might not last.

An alternative might be a permanent item that allows a group to pass. This would be similar to Centaur Island except allow a group instead of an individual. These items could be be given to trusted individuals and passed around as needed. Mystics might be one source but there could be others. The more there are, the likelier they are to wind up in the wrong hands. There will have to be a balance between that and ready access.

Robin Greyhawk

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Luminary
What would be your suggestions for security of the Portal Isle?


Lets say for example, that the portal was constructed on an isle close to the way Centaur Isle is. One could land on the beach, but go no further than the guard. A NPC guard could either check your rank (like in the game preserve...only there is a minimum rather than a maximum rank limit. ) But perhaps, its could be changed to work like a PF Path where lower-level exiles can follow the "opener".

[Hidden]

I'm in favor of there being several methods of access:
1) An illusion, as a failsafe.
2) A 'Brion keep-key
3) Insert your favorite solution here.

It seems to me that the likelyhood of there either being a keep-key-holder or illusion opener being on at any given time is fairly good, and having multiple routes of entrance would mean nobody had a monopoly on the portal.

[Mjollnir]

They could just fill the island with monsters only having a safe room around the portal itself to allow people to escape EP safely.
This would keep the lower levels out and most likely stop all but the strongest and most determined snerts who want to see what departing from EP will do.

Is there anybody out there who would actually consider going into EP solo?


Hidden
As for other suggested security measures i agree that multiple routes is a good idea so that it doesnt rely on one specific group like the foothills raids do.
What would we do if a single group had access and another controvesy arose and alienated that group?

Connie
Arnt there gates inside EP already that only open if you have an Ethereal amulet? most people who hunt there will carry them if only to open these gates or to serve as a warning that something strange is going on.

Kiriel
The permission from Bick is permanent so if a snert followed a group to the permission giving person they could then go in and out as much as they pleased

Robin
Who would decide who gets the item? How could you be sure you wernt inviting destruction to purgatory?
Would this item be limited to full mystics or all levels? would having a full mystic with the item userp the place of a journeyman mystic with ethereal training?
What if the group with the item goes snertish and only lets certain people in so it becomes their own little area? or one group with an item decides to try and stop all the others from getting in?

What are the benefits to using this portal rather than going through the ethereal tower?

[Lundar]

Mjollnir wrote:

<I>"What are the benefits to using this portal rather than going through the ethereal tower?"</I>

1) Quick and easy access to the Ethereal Plane. Currently it takes at least 15-30 minutes to travel through one of the Brions' keeps to reach the Ethereal Plane. The Ethereal Portal would provide instant access.

2) Two-way access to the Ethereal Plane. This will mean that the portal will provide not only a way to enter the Ethereal Plane, but also a way to exit it as well. This makes rescues easier. The Ethereal Tower can be used to exit the Ethereal Plane, but it is not an entrance.

-Lundar<P>

[Robin Greyhawk]

Originally posted by Mjollnir
They could just fill the island with monsters only having a safe room around the portal itself to allow people to escape EP safely.
This would keep the lower levels out and most likely stop all but the strongest and most determined snerts who want to see what departing from EP will do.

Is there anybody out there who would actually consider going into EP solo?


Hidden
As for other suggested security measures i agree that multiple routes is a good idea so that it doesnt rely on one specific group like the foothills raids do.

Multiple ways would be good. There are multiple ways to the Foothills. The Mystic way is just easier.

Robin
Who would decide who gets the item? How could you be sure you wernt inviting destruction to purgatory?
Would this item be limited to full mystics or all levels? would having a full mystic with the item userp the place of a journeyman mystic with ethereal training?
What if the group with the item goes snertish and only lets certain people in so it becomes their own little area? or one group with an item decides to try and stop all the others from getting in?


OOC : My suggestion is basically to put a concious mind behind making the decision. Any automatic method should be at least as hard as current methods.

Using the ethereal amulet as a key is not a bad idea, but they are too easy to get. If they were used, I'd suggest that you need at least the third trainer to open the portal. The keep key is a good possibility, but they are limited to the Brions' friends.

The items (if new) could be dispensed in various ways. Mystics (full) might have access to some. There could be other sources as well. The Brions come to mind. Other suggestions are welcome. My idea is to not make Mystics the only source, but perhaps the easiest one.

They could be given to anyone and transfered like any other item. I'd only give them to people I trust. Hopefully, they'd do likewise. Only the adventure organizers who want to go there would really need one. Eventually some would find their way to snerts. Perhaps there should be a chance of breakage on the item so that problem would be minimized.

I don't see how any group can prevent any other from getting in. No one would be able to have a monopoly.

Robin Greyhawk

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Robin Greyhawk

Mystics (full) might have access to some. There could be other sources as well. The Brions come to mind. Other suggestions are welcome. My idea is to not make Mystics the only source, but perhaps the easiest one.

Why limit it to MS? And why the easiest?

[Nunul]

Snerts have been mentioned a few times on this thread as if its a major concern.

I have seen less and less snerts (that is unless I can no longer see the trees for the forest that is [;)] ) these days.
That being said...are they really (IC AND OOC) that big of a danger at this point?

[Lundar]

<I>"Snerts have been mentioned a few times on this thread as if its a major concern. I have seen less and less snerts (that is unless I can no longer see the trees for the forest that is ) these days. That being said...are they really that big of a danger at this point?"</I>

There are few true snerts these days, but there are still a few idiots who might get into their heads to repeatedly depart from EP, just to cause further damage to Purgatory. There are also many ignorant exiles, who might stumble into the portal without knowing its significance. Finally, there are the Orga and the Darshak, who might also try to make use of the portal, if we don't have some sort of protective measures in place.

<I>"Why limit [the portal keys] to MS? And why the easiest?"</I>

In my mind, Mystics are the most responsible and organized group of exiles capable of making decisions like this at this point, unless the Town decides to come up with a "Portal Comittee" or some such.

-Lundar<P>

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Lundar
There are few true snerts these days, but there are still a few idiots who might get into their heads to repeatedly depart from EP, just to cause further damage to Purgatory.

I am one of those exiles who are
a: not convinced that EP departs effect Purgatory one whit.
b. not convinced that I can trust the word of a brion as far as I can throw them (that is, if I could actually get near the cowards) especially when it concerns something that they stand to benefit from.

(on a related note, earlier in this thread it was stated that the brions threatened war if we didnt get them the stones. When and did this actually occur? Drabby....care to elaborate?)

Originally posted by Lundar
There are also many ignorant exiles, who might stumble into the portal without knowing its significance. Finally, there are the Orga and the Darshak, who might also try to make use of the portal, if we don't have some sort of protective measures in place.

a. Ignorant exiles....IMHO they should learn not to touch the stove lest they be burnt.
b. Orga...could you really blame them? Also, why would they care about the portal while they have power over the strange stones?
c. Darshak...have been on the same side as the brions (Tenebrion at least) before, and I do not doubt that the brions would yet again employ them and give them access as they please.

Originally posted by Lundar
In my mind, Mystics are the most responsible and organized group of exiles capable of making decisions like this at this point,

*blink*
In MY mind that is not the case.

Originally posted by Lundar
unless the Town decides to come up with a "Portal Comittee" or some such.

Pipe dream. In a perfect world this would be a good thing...

[Lundar]

Nunul writes:

<I>"I am one of those exiles who are not convinced that EP departs effect Purgatory one whit."</I>

Departing from the Ethereal Plane sometimes has the effect of "pulling" some of the native creatures of the plane along with the departee. Often, when EP exploration parties fail and depart, they create a number of Ethereal Clouds in Purgatory. I have seen as many as 8 Ethereal Clouds in Purgatory after a failed EP expedition. Even if there is no indication that departing from EP causes permanent damage to Purgatory(which there is), it would still be prudent to keep departing from EP to a minimum.

<I>"Ignorant exiles....IMHO they should learn not to touch the stove lest they be burnt."</I>

Except in this instance, the actions of the ignorant few could burn down the rest of town as well.

<I>"Orga...could you really blame them? Also, why would they care about the portal while they have power over the strange stones? Darshak...have been on the same side as the brions (Tenebrion at least) before, and I do not doubt that the brions would yet again employ them and give them access as they please."</I>

It is very clear in my mind that we should not give our enemies access to this portal, which they could potentially benefit from or use to to harm Puddleby. As for the Darshak, the 'Brions claim to have stopped working with them quite a while ago, and I have seen no evidence to the contrary.

-Lundar<P>

[Mjollnir]

Originally posted by Lundar
In my mind, Mystics are the most responsible and organized group of exiles capable of making decisions like this at
this point, unless the Town decides to come up with a "Portal Comittee" or some such.

You cant be serious! :rolleyes:
Mystics as a group are not organised, you have a council that wont reveal itself even to its members and doesnt actively tell even the newest apprentice what to do or how to do it.
Not are all mystics responsible and there are a number of very responsible healers and fighters
And im assuming when you say Mystics you mean (Full) Mystics as opposed to the journeymen and apprentices?

Remember when this portal is finally put up it should mean a dramtically reduced number of departs from the EP, so who is going to have to go in and rescue people when they fall? the fighters and healers, how are we supposed to get in if the only mystic with access is dead inside?

Full steam ahead for the Portal Comittee I say.

Something like this is far to important to be left in the hands of a single group whether they are the brions servants (they obviously have their own agendas), the elite group(s) that hunt together (Almost if not all static groups who dont play well with others and rarely invite outsiders)or any one of the proffessions (each would promote their welfare over the other two proffessions).
We all do the work to get the stones we should all have a say in how the portal is controlled

[Mjollnir]

Is there any evidence that the orga actually use these stones themselves? or have any interest in the ethereal plane?

Pity we cant set up a one way gate in the orga camp or village or fortress (if that really exists) and let them fight it out with the ethereal beasties

[Nunul]

It just occurred to me.
Based on my experience with the EP, would Orga actually be that much more of a danger? If anything, compared to the beasts already there, they would be viewed as junk critters as vermine in the savanah. The same could be said for the darshak.

[Aravir]

I'd written a bit on how I thought the security ought to work in my notebook. To summarize:

The purpose of security measures on the portal is ostensibly to minimize the number of departs from the Ethereal Plane. Therefore, access to the portal ought to be controlled by a group of exiles who can be trusted to act responsibly in this regard. It should not be limited to any one profession or clan. There's no need for a committee, just reliable exiles acting individually.

Those who controlled access could make sure that no exiles who were obviously to weak (like me) tried to use the portal, but I don't think that's enough to avoid further Purgatory damage myself. I suggest that a strict "no departing" rule be enforced. If an exile does depart from the Ethereal Plane after using the portal, those with access could bar that person from using it again.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Nunul
Why limit it to MS? And why the easiest? This is a perfect example of people hearing what they want to hear instead of really listening. This was in answer to Robin's: "Mystics (full) might have access to some. There could be other sources as well. The Brions come to mind. Other suggestions are welcome. My idea is to not make Mystics the only source, but perhaps the easiest one."
Why do you read that Robin wanted to limit is to MS when he said the opposite? As for "why the easiest?", it could be because no mystic can go to EP alone and so must depend on others to accompany him/her, and the council has methods of putting presure on a mystic snert, don't you think? Whereas this type of potential pressure doesn't exist with other professions. So there is a build-in control method for mystics in a sense. Anyway, that's what i think Robin was refering to.

As for the threat of war it was reported to me by a couple of exiles. The last time I spoke with a Brion, which was a couple years ago I think, they were beginning to put pressure on us, and started to put up walls around their keeps. I haven't been able to go meet any Brion since (fell a couple of times trying though).

I think the idea to have many 'routes' is a good one. There should be a basic static method to prevent entry, as for a reverse Game Preserve. BTW Mjollnir, permission to enter Bicks is automatic if you don't have more than a number of ranks, but to enter the preserve, you have to go to Bicks and get permission each time, that was what kiriel was refering to.

Other methods based on items or ethereal training are good too and would reduce the possibility of abuse. How about something like the 'back door' in the Brions keep (the huts)? Make a way to access the portal that is safe if you have that item/training, otherwise you have to take the 'longer' access route which is dangerous. In both cases, you need to pass the static method first, which should be like a pathfinding path where you 'open' the path for a short time in which others can follow you in.

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Drablak
This is a perfect example of people hearing what they want to hear instead of really listening. This was in answer to Robin's: "Mystics (full) might have access to some. There could be other sources as well. The Brions come to mind. Other suggestions are welcome. My idea is to not make Mystics the only source, but perhaps the easiest one."
Why do you read that Robin wanted to limit is to MS when he said the opposite? As for "why the easiest?", it could be because no mystic can go to EP alone and so must depend on others to accompany him/her, and the council has methods of putting presure on a mystic snert, don't you think? Whereas this type of potential pressure doesn't exist with other professions. So there is a build-in control method for mystics in a sense. Anyway, that's what i think Robin was refering to.


I interpreted Robin's statements as such:

"Mystics (FULL*) might have access to some"
* Clearly Robin's opinion is that FULL mystics might have access...I point that out because I doubt the fairness of limiting the mystic access to FMs, so what of the AMs and JMs? I was speaking in reference to that point, not that I accused him of not wanting other professions to have access to the items to open.
(My apologies for mis-typing FMs as "MS" previously)

"My idea is to not make Mystics the only source, but perhaps the easiest one.[/I]"
* Clearly Robin's opinion is that he perhaps thinks the mystics should have the easiest access to the item compared to other exiles. i was asking him why he felt that it should be the easiest.

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Drablak
How about something like the 'back door' in the Brions keep (the huts)? Make a way to access the portal that is safe if you have that item/training, otherwise you have to take the 'longer' access route which is dangerous. In both cases, you need to pass the static method first, which should be like a pathfinding path where you 'open' the path for a short time in which others can follow you in.

I could add to this that perhaps everyone could have this item given to them ONLY ONCE...perhaps by a NPC stationed outside the portal. The item could be designed to poof upon entry to purgatory from the EP (but not when departing from outside EP).
This would limit snerts from beginning a new exile and running to the portal due to the fact that boatfare would be tough to get to a fresh-off the boat nooby.
Since you only recieved the item ONCE and knew full well that it would dissapear if you departed from there, how many experienced exiles would suicide run into the portal?
Perhaps there could be a trainer to teach you how to care for your item to lower the chances of the break.

[Aravir]

Originally posted by Nunul

(on a related note, earlier in this thread it was stated that the brions threatened war if we didnt get them the stones. When and did this actually occur? Drabby....care to elaborate?)


I'm not Drablak, but... there is a transcript (http://www.free-conversant.com/aravir/transcripts/tenebrion9autumn545) in my notebook of a discussion that took place on Autumn 9th, 545--in it Tenebrion makes some not-too-veiled threats. He doesn't actually say "give us the stones or we'll attack you" in so many words, but you can see what he was getting at.

Personally I consider this a rather good reason to reject the current deal. I happen to believe their bluffing, since they need us to get the stones they claim to want so much. But whether they are or not, such threats of force are simply unacceptable, and I'm appalled that some people actually think that they are a reason for going through with the deal.

If I was negotiating a trade with people who threatened to attack if I didn't agree with their terms, I would immediately end the negotiations and refuse to continue until they'd sworn never to initiate force against us.

[Nunul]

Taken from the transcript

Behr rumbles in the Ghorak Zo language.
Tenebrion chants in an ancient language.
Achates makes a very unpleasant sound.
(Callia raises an eyebrow)


rotfl [:p]

[Robin Greyhawk]

Originally posted by Aravir
I'd written a bit on how I thought the security ought to work in my notebook. To summarize:

The purpose of security measures on the portal is ostensibly to minimize the number of departs from the Ethereal Plane. Therefore, access to the portal ought to be controlled by a group of exiles who can be trusted to act responsibly in this regard. It should not be limited to any one profession or clan. There's no need for a committee, just reliable exiles acting individually.

Those who controlled access could make sure that no exiles who were obviously to weak (like me) tried to use the portal, but I don't think that's enough to avoid further Purgatory damage myself. I suggest that a strict "no departing" rule be enforced. If an exile does depart from the Ethereal Plane after using the portal, those with access could bar that person from using it again.

How?

Robin Greyhawk

[Aravir]

Originally posted by Robin Greyhawk


How?

Robin Greyhawk

By the people who control who goes through the portal not letting a person who'd departed from EP go through the portal.

I thought that seemed pretty obvious... maybe you were asking something else?

[Phelps]

Originally posted by Lundar

In my mind, Mystics are the most responsible and organized group of exiles capable of making decisions like this at this point, unless the Town decides to come up with a "Portal Comittee" or some such.
Mystics are notoriously fickle. This needs to be handled by a more stable and worthy group, like royalty.

[Robin Greyhawk]

Originally posted by Nunul



I interpreted Robin's statements as such:

"Mystics (FULL*) might have access to some"
* Clearly Robin's opinion is that FULL mystics might have access...I point that out because I doubt the fairness of limiting the mystic access to FMs, so what of the AMs and JMs? I was speaking in reference to that point, not that I accused him of not wanting other professions to have access to the items to open.
(My apologies for mis-typing FMs as "MS" previously)

"My idea is to not make Mystics the only source, but perhaps the easiest one.[/I]"
* Clearly Robin's opinion is that he perhaps thinks the mystics should have the easiest access to the item compared to other exiles. i was asking him why he felt that it should be the easiest.

What I meant was that perhaps Mystics (I use the capital to mean full) would have the duty of dispensing some of the "keys" to the portal. This is not something I'd trust to just any JM or AM. I specified that this should not be the only way.

Why should it be the easiest? Part of what we do is to make things easier. We don't kill things, but we can make it easier for you to do it. You can get to the Foothills, but a Mystic can make the trip faster. You can toggle locate a fallen, but a skristal is easier. So should you wait for Tenebrion to be around on a new moon and fight your way through to ask him for a "key", or should you ask Sutai in town center?

Robin Greyhawk

[Robin Greyhawk]

Originally posted by Aravir


By the people who control who goes through the portal not letting a person who'd departed from EP go through the portal.

I thought that seemed pretty obvious... maybe you were asking something else?

In your ideal system then, who controls access and how do they get such control?

Robin Greyhawk

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Nunul
(My apologies for mis-typing FMs as "MS" previously)

"My idea is to not make Mystics the only source, but perhaps the easiest one.[/I]"
* Clearly Robin's opinion is that he perhaps thinks the mystics should have the easiest access to the item compared to other exiles. i was asking him why he felt that it should be the easiest. Well, then I apologize to have interpreted "MS" as meaning mystics and not understanding you meant Full Mystics by that...

As for the "easiest" part, if you read carefully, I think I tried to answer that. But then Robin answered too.

[Aravir]

Originally posted by Robin Greyhawk


In your ideal system then, who controls access and how do they get such control?

Robin Greyhawk

Ah, thanks for the clarification!

I'll answer the second part first, since it's simple. Whoever sets up the security in the first place (the Brions, in other words) gives control over access to whoever they want to.

As to who that is exactly, in my "ideal system" it would be a group of reliable and responsible exiles from all professions. But I'm not under any illusions as to how likely that ideal is to be realized. It doesn't matter, though... the basic idea of keeping out people who have departed would work just fine as long as exiles control access, regardless of who they are.

Actually, I think Nunul's idea of an item which breaks on departing from the Ethereal Plane could fit in well with part of my idea. There could be a small number of exiles with a portal key maker (or whatever) giving out the items that Nunul proposed. That would actually be better than my basic idea, because it would be much less work for the exiles giving out the items--they wouldn't have to keep track of who had departed before, and they'd only have to do something once instead of being constantly pestered to go open the portal.

It would also take care of the weakness I see in Nunul's basic idea, which is that a sarir or other hireling wouldn't be able to exercise judgement over who to give the items to. I can see a well-funded but obnoxious exile paying for a constant stream of new exiles to go and depart, for example. Also, there are exiles who are very strong and well known but who are so deeply experience-obsessed that they might very well depart rather than lose experience by waiting for the next chaos storm.

[Robin Greyhawk]

Originally posted by Drablak

As for the "easiest" part, if you read carefully, I think I tried to answer that. But then Robin answered too.

Your explanation has some validity too Drablak. I'm sorry I didn't see it sooner. I find it hard to follow responses in this format if there are more than a few posts.

Robin Greyhawk

[Mjollnir]

OOC
Has Bicks changed in recent storms then? i had a 2nd character who has been able to get into the game preserve as often as he wanted with only permission needed the first time.
End OOC

Why is everyone obsessed with having an Item that openes the way to the portal? surely thats an invitation to mischief.
A short trek through dangerous monsters would stop the people who are just fooling around and wouldnt add that much time on to the serious groups efforts especially if the area immediately around the portal was safe giving groups a chance to heal up.

If there must be an item that controls access why give it to any specific group or person?

It could be
A non permanent item like the mist key from tenebrions tower needing a group to get (although maybe not so time consuming since people seem to worry quite a bit about that)

Or a permanent item but instead of everybody trying to promote their own welfare or that of their group hold a poll ask the population to nominate and vote for the people who would be most deserving and most responcible people to have access.
Or hold a council of clan and group leaders, anyone of whom can nominate a person and anyone of whom can veto so that it takes a unanimous decision or at least a large majority to accept a nominee

Those are the fairest options rather than just giving it to one group who will look after their own interests first, the mystics wont be happy if they dont control it and a significant portion of others wont be happy if they do.
Everybody is going to worry that they will be excluded from this fabulous:rolleyes: opportunity so is trying to look after themselves by making sure they get at least a portion of control so stop puffing up on your own importance and start thinking how to NEGOTIATE! and pick whats best for everybody.

[Unregistered]

Nunul wrote:

> Taken from the transcript

> Behr rumbles in the Ghorak Zo language.
> Tenebrion chants in an ancient language.
> Achates makes a very unpleasant sound.
> (Callia raises an eyebrow)

Replace the beginning of the transcript with this:

Callia says, "thank you for the tour, it was most instructive"
(Bizob nods in agreement)
Callia says, "Behr is a linguist.. he has a question for you on that subject"
Tenebrion says, "I hope with some understanding of what cooperation can offer, we can avoid a more unpleasant means"
Tenebrion says, "unpleasant means of acquiring the stones we seek."
Callia says, "yes..."
Tenebrion asks in Ghorak Zo, "Yes, Behr?"
Noivad says, "well, we could use some help"
Callia says, "we should speak on that"
Behr asks in Ghorak Zo, "tenebrion, did i hear you say you speak many languages?"
Tenebrion says in Ghorak Zo, "I do."
Behr asks in Ghorak Zo, "do you speak languages that exiles do not?"
Tenebrion asks in Ghorak Zo, "Would you care to hear some very old words?"
Callia asks, "tell me, how has your attempt at acquiring a Stone by using Prue gone?"
Behr says in Ghorak Zo, "more, i would like to learn those words"
Tenebrion chants in an ancient language.
Achates makes a very unpleasant sound.
(Callia raises an eyebrow)
Achates ponders, "I would feel more secure if I knew how the stones were to be utilized."
Achates says, "Excuse me"
Callia asks, "I don't suppose you could teach us that?"
Behr says in Ghorak Zo, "zo are not so good at approaching subject. so i ask outright."
(Callia frowns at Achates)
Tenebrion says in Ghorak Zo, "Unfortunately I am not a teacher of languages."
Behr asks in Ghorak Zo, "do you know if there are any language trainers on these islands, that we exiles might learn from?"
Tenebrion says in Ghorak Zo, "Merely a student of them."
Achates ponders, "That dinner I had isn't going down well"
Aravir asks, "By any chance, do you speak the language of the Voolcons, Tenebrion?"
Tenebrion says in Ghorak Zo, "I know of none."
Bizob says, "heh"
Achates says, "Chitter"
Bizob says, "good question, Aravir"
Achates says, "aye good question :)"
Behr asks in Ghorak Zo, "or could you tell us how you learned these other words?"
Tenebrion says, "We are not here to discuss languages at present."
(Behr nods)
(Aravir smiles)
(Callia shrugs)
Bizob says, "heh"
Tenebrion says, "I mean not to be rude Behr, but there is a pressing issue at hand."

[Mjollnir]

It's past the time when the trade was supposed to have taken place but ive heard no news about it anywhere, does anybody know the current status of the deal?

Have we found all the stones and handed them over?
Have we found all the stones and kept them?
Are we still missing some of the stones?

The brions appear to be raising the island for the portal does this mean that the exchange has happened but in secret and nobody is allowed to talk about it (mystics im looking at you here)

[Robin Greyhawk]

Six stones have been collected but we'd like to secure an extra for insurance. The raid last full moon was an amazing success as OC4 was taken with about 14 people only 4 of which were healers. Special thanks to Tater, Ledward Vicious, Tharloch and GrayGradi for their fantastic performance and Yor for directing the raid.

There are a few details which need to be worked out before the stones are handed over. Meetings for these were delayed because all parties were otherwise busy (OOC Holidays). Plans are to include representatives of the fighters and healers.

The island was begun when the deal was made as a sign of good faith by the Brions. It's my understanding that it still has to cool and the portal has to be constructed so it may be a while before it is ready.

Robin Greyhawk

[Mjollnir]

It depends on the dates of course but if you need/want volunteers for healer representatives, i volunteer myself here and now

[Hidden]

I'll see about being there, once I hear a date.

[Ruen]

Originally posted by Hidden
I'll see about being there, once I hear a date.

Umm, I may be confused, but it didn't sound like they were going to announce a date publically. What Robin Greyhawk said was:


There are a few details which need to be worked out before the stones are handed over. Meetings for these were delayed because all parties were otherwise busy (OOC Holidays). Plans are to include representatives of the fighters and healers.


To me this sounds more like the people who are invited to the meeting are just waiting for a date when they can all make it. I'm guessing that the mystic council doesn't want all the fighters and healers who can make it to just show up to represent their guilds, which is likely what would happen if they publically announced a time and place.

It might be helpful to know how the fighter and healer representatives will be chosen, or who they are and how they were chosen if they've already been determined. Or am I wrong, and is the meeting open to all fighters and healers who can make it? The wording used makes it sound to me like the mystic's coucil might just be picking the representatives themselves.

[Robin Greyhawk]

Not to say you aren't, but what makes you 2 valid representatives of the healers?

Everyone would probably like to go, but that's not really possible. No business would be conducted if 100 exiles attend.

I think it's up to the Guilds to determine their representatives. The mechanism used (voting?) should be determined by the membership. I'm not sure self appointment is the way to go here.

But that's just my opinion. This is the business of the fighters and healers and it's not really up to me how you determine it.

Robin

[Robin Greyhawk]

Originally posted by Ruen

I'm guessing that the mystic council doesn't want all the fighters and healers who can make it to just show up to represent their guilds, which is likely what would happen if they publically announced a time and place.



I think you're right Ruen. Nothing would be accomplished under those conditions. But I don't think the Mystic Council is inclined to pick your representatives for you. At the same time, events are moving and will not wait forever.

How would you pick them?

Robin Greyhawk

[Delirium]

No healer or fighter is a valid representative of the healer or fighter guilds - we have no organizational structure and no system in place to choose representatives. I see no valid reason why all who want to attend cannot, *IF* this trade really is for the good of puddleby, as the Mystic Council would have you believe.

[Robin Greyhawk]

Originally posted by Delirium
No healer or fighter is a valid representative of the healer or fighter guilds - we have no organizational structure and no system in place to choose representatives. I see no valid reason why all who want to attend cannot, *IF* this trade really is for the good of puddleby, as the Mystic Council would have you believe.

Spoken by someone who wants to sabotage this meeting. I'm sure Delirium would be delighted by such chaos.

It's not the fault of the Mystic Council that the other Guilds have not created any decision making body. That doesn't mean it can't be done.

Robin Greyhawk

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Robin Greyhawk
It's not the fault of the Mystic Council that the other Guilds have not created any decision making body. That doesn't mean it can't be done.

Who's to say there isn't such a "council" in existance now?
Its not the fault of the Fighter Council (code-named "bacon") that the mystics cannot keep the existance of their "decision making body" a secret.

Lets just say that there is a "decision making body". Our members are secret.
Who exactly created this "council" of fighters? Why, the great and powerful OoglyBoogly, thats who.

(It's rumoured that the fighter council has, in the works, a trade brewing with the Brions who for a measly couple of Herpetid eggs, will provide us a quicker way to the zoo on Centaur Isle)

aa wipes the shit from his boots and smiles thoughtfully.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Nunul
(It's rumoured that the fighter council has, in the works, a trade brewing with the Brions who for a measly couple of Herpetid eggs, will provide us a quicker way to the zoo on Centaur Isle)I heard a rumor that they first tried to exchange 6 slices of bacon for it but that it was vetoed by one of the secret fighters' council. It was then changed to Herp eggs.

/ponder I wonder who could have vetoed that one...

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Drablak
/ponder I wonder who could have vetoed that one...

I neither confirm nor deny holding a seat on the council.

[Phelps]

Originally posted by Robin Greyhawk


I think you're right Ruen. Nothing would be accomplished under those conditions. But I don't think the Mystic Council is inclined to pick your representatives for you. At the same time, events are moving and will not wait forever.

How would you pick them? Rpyal appointment, of course.

[Delirium]

I would point out that this clan conducted negotiations and an exchange that was not favored by all. These negotiations and exchange were carried out in town center where all could observe and were free to participate and ask questions. I refer, of course, to buying the Tykan healing potion from Mar Solkin, a Zo of questionable character.

I fail to see how these negotiations are different. You have your stones, and there is nothing I, or any other exile, can do directly to stop you from betraying Puddleby. All I could do, really, is observe and document the events. So you are saying you want no witnesses who will speak of your actions, Robin?

[Robin Greyhawk]

Originally posted by Delirium
I would point out that this clan conducted negotiations and an exchange that was not favored by all. These negotiations and exchange were carried out in town center where all could observe and were free to participate and ask questions. I refer, of course, to buying the Tykan healing potion from Mar Solkin, a Zo of questionable character.

I fail to see how these negotiations are different. You have your stones, and there is nothing I, or any other exile, can do directly to stop you from betraying Puddleby. All I could do, really, is observe and document the events. So you are saying you want no witnesses who will speak of your actions, Robin?

Hardly the same scale or range of interest.

How does anything I have said suggest no witnesses? I have said just the opposite. I suggest you arrange to have yourself appointed a healer representative if you are that concerned. I'm sure you can get the healers organized for that.

Robin

[Nunul]

The Fighter Guild-Council "BACoN"
(Blissfull Arses Carrying on kNowingly)
has just released this... well, this press release:

"We of BACoN, having not been presented with ANY evidence of the existance of any mystic "council", hereby laugh at any and all individuals who claim to speak for such an organization (organized or otherwise)." :rolleyes:

Sources say that the Council of BACoN have been secretly hording Orga Stones, which apparently have been painted to look exactly like Eggs of the Hepretid Lizard (Smellius Poopious).

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Robin Greyhawk
I'm sure you can get the healers organized for that.

Waitasec. I thought mystics were supposed to be intelligent and observant. Well, my delusions just flew out the window.

It's not the fault of the Mystic Council that the other Guilds have not created any decision making body. That doesn't mean it can't be done.

Nor is it the fault of the other guilds that Mystics are mindless and dependant enough to NEED a council. The policy of the Healer's guild has been for a long time that all are welcome. So shall it be with the meeting with the 'brions. Aside, I doubt you could stop a dedicated group of would-be onlookers from coming to the meeting either way, so I suggest you give up your foolish delusions now.

[Mjollnir]

:rolleyes: What have I started?

Hidden
I doubt you could stop a dedicated group of would-be onlookers from coming

The mystics couldnt the Brions probably could, i'd imagine there are still large areas of the brion keeps that arnt open to us exiles and the meeting could just as easily be held in one of them or in the conference room of one of the unopened keeps with only a select few being allowed in.

Delirium
These negotiations and exchange were carried out in town center where all could observe and were free to participate and ask questions.

These are different because the brions refuse point blank to leave the safety of their keeps and wouldnt come to TC for fear of us attacking them.

Robin Greyhawk
I think it's up to the Guilds to determine their representatives.

The healer and fighter guilds just arnt organised like that and could not be if we wanted them to they are too vast, the mystic guild is a comparitively small percentage of the population and they have had a council set up for as long as there have been mystics.

No single healer/fighter or group of healers/fighters could ever hope to try and run the healer/fighter guilds nor would any one be selected through a majority vote, while mystics may thrive under the strict regulations of the mystic guild and council the healers and fighters would choke.

Much as some wont like it I think the best way to select a representative would either to be some sort of giant vote(which are never very sucessful if you look at the voter/nonvoter statistics in the polling chamber or for potential candidates to put themselves forward for the mystic council (or at least the people who hold the stones for safekeeping) decide on who would be the best representatives.

what makes you 2 valid representatives of the healers?
Since you ask ill tell you.

While I am not the best in my field or the most famous, I believe that I am a valid representative because I am honest, helpful and trustworthy.
As a member in good standing of the Sun Dragon Clan (who pride themselves on these characteristics) I believe that I am qualified to be a fair impartial representative.

While not being able to attend all of them I have hapily attended a number of FMOCR raids with the express purpose of helping get stones for this trade, i believe that this trade could be a significant step forward in dealing with the Brion brothers.

I've spoken out in this thread against any one group having complete control over the portal when it is built and would hope I could be their to help look after everyones best interests.
I have had some albeit small dealing with the Brion brothers in the past and they have all been settled amicably.
And (like so many others) I speak dwarven and could act as a translator should we need one to speak with Melabrion.

IMO

Mjollnir

[Robin Greyhawk]

Originally posted by Mjollnir


The healer and fighter guilds just arnt organised like that and could not be if we wanted them to they are too vast, the mystic guild is a comparitively small percentage of the population and they have had a council set up for as long as there have been mystics.

No single healer/fighter or group of healers/fighters could ever hope to try and run the healer/fighter guilds nor would any one be selected through a majority vote, while mystics may thrive under the strict regulations of the mystic guild and council the healers and fighters would choke.

Much as some wont like it I think the best way to select a representative would either to be some sort of giant vote(which are never very sucessful if you look at the voter/nonvoter statistics in the polling chamber or for potential candidates to put themselves forward for the mystic council (or at least the people who hold the stones for safekeeping) decide on who would be the best representatives.



Mjollnir

No one has ever tried to organize them. How do you know it won't work if you don't even make the attempt? The tools are there if you wish to use them. Sure you won't get 100%. I don't think you have to.

I don't know what the final format for this meeting will be. I don't think a mob scene is viable though. That's my opinion. It's not fair to those who have worked on it so far and it's not fair to Brions to have to deal with 100 people.

Hidden apparently represents only himself and doesn't seem to trust anyone else to do it. This is a weak position because we know that only Hidden is behind it, not the Healers Guild. You give a long list of qualifications (very good ones). Neither of you is endorsed by another healer.

Assume for minute that only a few can go and the mob scene is not possible. How would you choose who is to attend? Self selection is certainly an option. But what if too many people put themselves forward?

You don't have to have a Council to do this. Someone or some group can schedule a meeting, publicise it and chair it. Discuss things a little bit and choose who is to attend. It could also be done in an open forum.

Robin Greyhawk

[Bob the Archer]

I have only one request-

When the meeting does take place, whoever is or isnt there, just

PLEASE DONT

sue the exiles with the stones and have them imprisioned to prevent the trade.

[Ruen]

Originally posted by Robin Greyhawk


I'm guessing that the mystic council doesn't want all the fighters and healers who can make it to just show up to represent their guilds, which is likely what would happen if they publically announced a time and place.


I think you're right Ruen. Nothing would be accomplished under those conditions. But I don't think the Mystic Council is inclined to pick your representatives for you. At the same time, events are moving and will not wait forever.


For the record, that was not a suggestion, just a surmise of your intentions. I am at least reassured to know that the mystics would not presume to pick representatives from the other guilds themselves.



How would you pick them?


I would not. As others have already stated, that's not the way the other guilds work. We aren't organized in any way, nor do we seek to be.

Personally, I don't feel the need for a representative, at this meeting or any other. I've made no secret of my views on the trade. If you missed them, they are:

1) Dealing with necromancers is a bad idea
2) Bowing under pressure from threats is bad policy
3) Any ally of the Darshak is an enemy of mine

Having failed thus far I doubt that I can persuade you to abort the trade at this late date, and I can't stop you from carrying it out now that you have the stones in hand. What more is there to say?

Ruen
Who speaks for herself, not her guild, and certainly not VERMINE (Very Enigmatic Rangers Maurauding In Nebulous Environs)

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Robin Greyhawk
You don't have to have a Council to do this.

Having a council for it is a fine thing tho wouldn't you say?

Please remind us newer exiles...exactly who formed (brought into being) the mystic council?
Was it exiles? Perhaps if the gods wanted a ruling body in the other 2 guilds, they would have created councils for them too.

Perhaps however, they saw how badly the one council they started was run and thought it best to scrap the idea. :rolleyes:

Try this Robin. Take a vote of ALL the mystics...AMs, JMs and FMs.
See how you do getting them to agree on something.

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Robin Greyhawk
Assume for minute that only a few can go and the mob scene is not possible.

Hasn't it occured to anyone that something akin to court would work? Doesn't the town meeting hall act as a place that one exile at a time can say his piece? In addition to that, the Brions can be safe there as the speaker is in an enclosed booth. (that is, unless ranged weapons suddenly become available)

[Robin Greyhawk]

Originally posted by Nunul


Hasn't it occured to anyone that something akin to court would work? Doesn't the town meeting hall act as a place that one exile at a time can say his piece? In addition to that, the Brions can be safe there as the speaker is in an enclosed booth. (that is, unless ranged weapons suddenly become available)

The meeting hall has been tried before. Tenebrion would only come as a Sarir and poofed before any real work was done. I doubt they could be persuaded to come in person.

Robin Greyhawk

[Delirium]

Originally posted by Robin Greyhawk:
I'm sure you can get the healers organized for that.

Originally posted by Hidden
[B]

Waitasec. I thought mystics were supposed to be intelligent and observant. Well, my delusions just flew out the window.



Wow, I agree 100% with something Hidden said. Must be a cold day in the abyss.[;)]

First, Robin, you are wrong when you say no one has ever tried to organize the healer and fighter guilds. I have seen several exiles get such ideas into thier heads... and then fail before they got started. They were all even less seccessful than those who tried to form an organized government for Puddleby. Those efforts got a little further, so the failure to form a government of Puddleby is well documented.

I, for one, WILL NOT authorize any other healer to represent me in this matter - I feel that doing so would be giving up my own voice. This is a potentially world-changing event and it is my belief that ALL voices in puddleby have a right to be heard. Where fairness is concerned, I think that it is unfair to exclude anyone who will be affected by this - and that is all of us. I am sure the exchange between the mystics and the Brions will take place whether or not there is a mob of onlookers.

When I mentioned the Mar Solkin potion, my point was not that it was in Town Center, but that many were there. If the Brions want to meet in thier keeps, that is fine. It would be an easy matter to get all exiles who want to attend to the conference rooms. That is no reason to make the meeting secret.

As for Bob's request not to sue, that hadn't occured to me, but *IF* the meeting with the Brions is open to all who want to be there to observe and participate, then I will not sue and I will discourage others from doing so.

-Delirium

[Robin Greyhawk]

Originally posted by Delirium



I, for one, WILL NOT authorize any other healer to represent me in this matter - I feel that doing so would be giving up my own voice. This is a potentially world-changing event and it is my belief that ALL voices in puddleby have a right to be heard. Where fairness is concerned, I think that it is unfair to exclude anyone who will be affected by this - and that is all of us. I am sure the exchange between the mystics and the Brions will take place whether or not there is a mob of onlookers.

-Delirium

Many voices speaking together have power. One hundred speaking separately are just babbling.

I'm just expressing my opinions here. I think a small meeting has a chance of accomplishing its objectives while still receiving diverse input. A large one doesn't. Of course, your agenda is to sabotage it anyway.

I don't think anything about the meeting has been set in stone yet. I'm sure the feelings expressed here will be taken into account when the decisions are made.

Robin Greyhawk

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Nunul
Having a council for it is a fine thing tho wouldn't you say?

Please remind us newer exiles...exactly who formed (brought into being) the mystic council?
Was it exiles? Perhaps if the gods wanted a ruling body in the other 2 guilds, they would have created councils for them too.

Perhaps however, they saw how badly the one council they started was run and thought it best to scrap the idea. :rolleyes:

Try this Robin. Take a vote of ALL the mystics...AMs, JMs and FMs.
See how you do getting them to agree on something. I object to that attitude Nunul, that is clearly just to be disagreeable and I expect more from you.

From past comments, not just from you but from others, I understand that the people in general want that "not just mystics participate in the negotiations", that means that people from the other professions, and the non-professionned too btw, should participate. I agree. Robin agrees.

Now Robin asked for healers and fighters to determine - themselves and how they wish to - those representatives. He did not impose a way to do it.

Now people oppose the fact that healers and fighters have to select representatives. They oppose this based on the fact, if I understand correctly, that no few exiles could be ellected to represent everyone (and this is usually done with a mendate, or basic principles on what to negotiate for).

Saying this to me is shooting yourself in the proverbial foot. If, as a group, either the healers or the fighters cannot agree on representatives to send to a negotiation, how do you think that that negotiation, where presumably everyone is welcome, has any chance to be successful? If you cannot agree on who to send, what makes you think that you all could agree on anything once at the negotiation table? It would only provoke side-debates that should happen before that meeting.

Let's say we even try a free-for-all negotiation, when should it be conducted? Let's say that everyone is welcome and that we set it for hour X of day Y, then all those who can't be there would complain that they weren't given the opportunity to influence the negotiation.

Isn't it better to have an open debate amongst healers (fighters) beforehand, so that a number of guiding principles of negotation can be set from all healers (fighters) and have a few people sent to negotiate?

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the professions to determine representatives and to ask them to discuss issues and determine guiding principles before the meeting takes place.

[Hidden]

Mark my words. 2 things could cause riotous uproar in the community --

1. If the meeting is closed to the public.
2. And if so, if no visionstone is released.

No, a transcript won't do. It has to be a visionstone, and even then that's a concession on the part of the folks who think the meeting should be public.
Originally posted by Drablak
Let's say we even try a free-for-all negotiation, when should it be conducted? Let's say that everyone is welcome and that we set it for hour X of day Y, then all those who can't be there would complain that they weren't given the opportunity to influence the negotiation.
Simple. Noon Pacific on a Saturday. There are very few timezones that that's impossible for. Or, if you prefer, ask Census the peak clanning time out of the week, and set it for then, to get the best sample of the population.
I object to that attitude Nunul, that is clearly just to be disagreeable and I expect more from you.
That's an ad-hominem attack right there. I expect more from... no, wait, you're a mystic. Never mind. It was all part of basic apprentice training, eh?
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the professions to determine representatives and to ask them to discuss issues and determine guiding principles before the meeting takes place.
Then you don't think.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Delirium
[B]First, Robin, you are wrong when you say no one has ever tried to organize the healer and fighter guilds. I have seen several exiles get such ideas into thier heads... and then fail before they got started. They were all even less seccessful than those who tried to form an organized government for Puddleby. Those efforts got a little further, so the failure to form a government of Puddleby is well documented.There is no need for a healer or fighter council. Don't try to create one if you don't want to.

I, for one, WILL NOT authorize any other healer to represent me in this matter - I feel that doing so would be giving up my own voice. This is a potentially world-changing event and it is my belief that ALL voices in puddleby have a right to be heard.Exactly! And the best way for that is a debate before the meeting, extended over a period of time so that EVERYONE can voice their concerns, not just those who can attend the meeting.


Where fairness is concerned, I think that it is unfair to exclude anyone who will be affected by this - and that is all of us. I am sure the exchange between the mystics and the Brions will take place whether or not there is a mob of onlookers.I think you'd be the one excluding people if you had it your way and only those able to attend - at a given place and time - could voice their opinions.

When I mentioned the Mar Solkin potion, my point was not that it was in Town Center, but that many were there.Good point and good example: I wasn't there, I did not hear about it, and I couldn't voice my concerns, hence I was excluded. How dare you?! [;)]

If the Brions want to meet in thier keeps, that is fine. It would be an easy matter to get all exiles who want to attend to the conference rooms. That is no reason to make the meeting secret.Chosing the conference room limits, by itself, the number of people who can attend. Would you be the one at the door saying who can enter?

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Robin Greyhawk
I'm sure the feelings expressed here will be taken into account when the decisions are made.
By whom, may I ask?
Hidden apparently represents only himself and doesn't seem to trust anyone else to do it. This is a weak position because we know that only Hidden is behind it, not the Healers Guild. You give a long list of qualifications (very good ones). Neither of you is endorsed by another healer.
And how many other healers need we be endorsed by? I would have no problem finding 20, or even 50 supporters. And then, how would you determine that they actually supported me? Take my word for it? Then I have already found them.
Assume for minute that only a few can go and the mob scene is not possible. How would you choose who is to attend? Self selection is certainly an option. But what if too many people put themselves forward?
Then they all attend, and we make do with the chaos. The 'brions can bolt and rock anyone who gets too unruly.
Someone or some group can schedule a meeting, publicise it and chair it. Discuss things a little bit and choose who is to attend. It could also be done in an open forum.
And then, of course, that group will be accused of bias, and they will send their own members first, before anyone else is picked. No, I don't think that will happen, nor will the exiles support it.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Hidden
Simple. Noon Pacific on a Saturday.How typical of your egocentric attitude. What makes you think that that's agreeable to me? to everyone?

That's an ad-hominem attack right there. I expect more from... no, wait, you're a mystic. Never mind. It was all part of basic apprentice training, eh?If you saw that as an attack on Nunul then you need to adjust your own tone, even whe you're saying hello in tc. And in any case, why do you feel Nunul needs or wants you to defend him?

Then you don't think.Typical too of your impression of anyone not agreeing with you.

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Drablak
Exactly! And the best way for that is a debate before the meeting, extended over a period of time so that EVERYONE can voice their concerns, not just those who can attend the meeting.
Ah, but! Not everyone can be there the whole time, and thus hear every point made by everyone else and respond. Your plan is flawed, therefore you are a bad person and should die.[/sarcasm]
I think you'd be the one excluding people if you had it your way and only those able to attend - at a given place and time - could voice their opinions.
Perfectionist fallacy. It may not be perfect (nothing is), but it's the best plan available.
Good point and good example: I wasn't there, I did not hear about it, and I couldn't voice my concerns, hence I was excluded. How dare you?! [;)]
Well, besides the fact that I don't believe you had been exiled yet at that point...
Chosing the conference room limits, by itself, the number of people who can attend. Would you be the one at the door saying who can enter?
No. The 'Brions can and have unlocked the door all the way to let people in when there was something to discuss.

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Drablak
How typical of your egocentric attitude. What makes you think that that's agreeable to me? to everyone?
How typical of your inability to properly debate a point. Not only did you skip an important part of my quote, you set up a straw man and made a personal attack. Tch tch.
And in any case, why do you feel Nunul needs or wants you to defend him?
I don't, but I think you're being illogically and unfairly harsh and disagreeable to suck up to the higher-ups in the mystic guild. It's not like I haven't seen you do it before.
Typical too of your impression of anyone not agreeing with you.
Quite the feisty one, aren't we? I, unlike you, am open to any suggestion that does not involve unfairly limiting the meeting. You're just being difficult.

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Nunul
Perhaps however, they saw how badly the one council they started was run and thought it best to scrap the idea. :rolleyes:

Try this Robin. Take a vote of ALL the mystics...AMs, JMs and FMs.
See how you do getting them to agree on something.

All this talk about the Mystic Council has prompted me to say something that the Mystics who come here might not like.

The Mystic Council doesn't, in my opinion, represent anyone except for the those on the Mystic Council and not the Mystic Guild as a whole.

I am not on the Mystic Council and I do not know who is. It's my opinion that most if not all AMs and JMs are not on the Mystic Council.

While input is sometimes asked, in the end the Mystic Council does what they want to do. I think they wouldn't tell us anything they do concerning the Brions (unless they needed the help of fighters and healers.

To answer your challenge, the Mystic Council doesn't need to take a vote of all of the mystics because they don't need to.

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Drablak
If you saw that as an attack on Nunul then you need to adjust your own tone, even whe you're saying hello in tc. And in any case, why do you feel Nunul needs or wants you to defend him?

I just love to see Hidden defend me. [;)]
Such a warm fuzzy feeling in my innards...

Drabby, I am addressing Robin's seeming stance of "well, our guild can do it because we have a council... why don't the others do that...they have all the tools necesary."
(note: that is how his words translated into my little dorf-brain. Those, I admit aren't the words he used)

No devine power chose certain exiles to be the beginners of a council for the healers or fighters. I am pointing out my doubts that without that council, the mystics would be just as "unruly" a bunch as the rest of the exiles in puddleby.

[Lorikeet]

Robin Greyhawk said:
I think a small meeting has a chance of accomplishing its objectives while still receiving diverse input.

What are the objectives? What kind of negotiation do you envision?

[Bob the Archer]

I speak here as the official voice of the fighters guild.

We, the fighters guild, have orginized a council.

A quorum of all available guildmembers have voted, and have elected representatives of our guild.

These representatives speak with the full authority of the guild, and may commit both guild funds and resources with their word. They make policy and are fully authorized to represent the council of the fighters guild to other exiles.

These representatives have been given a special symbol of their position. If one of the representatives /show-s you this special symbol of trust, responsibility, and authority, please grant them the respect and deference due to one of those who guide the forces that defend Puddelby (and generate most of the experience /share-ed by all)

This symbol of the council is -

a Dagger.

[Robin Greyhawk]

Originally posted by Nunul



No devine power chose certain exiles to be the beginners of a council for the healers or fighters. I am pointing out my doubts that without that council, the mystics would be just as "unruly" a bunch as the rest of the exiles in puddleby.

I haven't responded to your posts because I haven't considered them really relevent to the discussion. The Mystic Guild has system for making decisions. Some people seem to have a problem with that. You are probably correct in that if there were no such mechanism in place, the Guild would be unruly as well. But then they wouldn't be Mystics, they'd be something else.

Exiles occasionally need to make decisions as a GROUP. There is currently no mechanism in place for that. Nothing is stopping you from putting one in place but stubborn individualism. In its absence, someone will make decisions for you. The Tykan potion brought up earlier is a good example. Although they said they were trying to be inclusive, those who bought it made the decision for everyone.

You don't have to put a full blown town council in place to do this. But you might want to think about ways to allow more input and coming to an agreement. Otherwise, someone else will wind up making the decisions. I believe Phelps has volunteered for that.

Robin Greyhawk