Chains and chaining

[Sunoril]

I've been looking far ahead to the day I would have a chain. Today I got lucky, and won one in the newbielympics. (yay!) I've started training with Loovma Geer, but now I have some questions:

1. How risky is using the chain with little or no training from Loovma Geer?
2. How much training is needed to reduce the risk?
3. Any hints as to the best way to use it?

I don't want to break this thing because I started using it too soon.[:)]

[Farhope]

First, Sunoril, your new chain will break, I hope not soon, but it will eventually break :-(

If you want to reduce risk:

1) train with Loomva Geer (even with 20 ranks you shoud see the difference) but I am "better pupil" and did break a chain in the contest (as my pack was full, I didn't recover any metal... THAT was silly)

2) My opinion (but I don't have any proof) is that you have more risk when you chain from farther and/or running. So (if I am right), try to chain when near the fallen and stop before (sometimes, you certainly don't want to stop :-)

And, as a final note, if you become chain-addict, be prepared to never become rich :-)

some chain addicts here (http://catenae.puddleby.info/)

[Kirth Gersen]

I don't know it is because I have been lucky so far, or if it due to my training with Loovma'sar, but... Since I reached Better pupil status with Loovma, I've been able to retrieve both metals each and every time my chain broke. Granted, my statistical foundation is far from sound. I have only broken three chains so far during a little more than one OOC month of heavy chain use.

So. My advice is the same as that I received: train Loovma, and train at least 50 lessons if you plan on using your chains a lot.

Humbly,
/Kirth

[Mjollnir]

Im somewhat of a chainoholic so ill stick my oar in and hand out some advice that i should probably listen to myself.

1) Most people feel satisfied with 30-50 loovma I have 40 and i noticed a dramatic reduction in the number of chain breakages from when i had 30 and more often than not i got 2 metal back from the breakage.

2) save your chains only for an emergency, if somebody is fallen near to town, in a safe area or somewhere thats easy to rescue dont use your chain, unless its a choice between chaining and falling or chaining and have the fallen depart( eg if they have time constraints)

3) keep at least 2 empty pack spaces for the metal from the breakages (or more depending on how many chains you own)

4) start coin-hunting and start it now, even the casual chainer soon runs into money troubles. Ive spent the past few zodiacs with 4 pieces of metal in my pack and the only way i can afford to reforge my chains is by selling off the metal.

[Lundar]

I would wait until you reached at least 30 lessons with Loovma Geer before using your chain, since it seems like you won't be able to immediately afford a new chain if you break your current one. I personally have 50 trainings with Loovma, and find that I break my chains infrequently enough that I can purchase a new one when I do. I typically chain around 5-7 people a day.

Like others here have said, try to be careful about your chain use. Always sunstone for a healer before even considering making use of a chain. And make sure to always ask the fallen if they want to be chained to town. Sometimes they don't want to be dragged away from their hunting grounds, and would rather wait for a healer.

-Lundar<P>

[Nunul]

*spoilers*











Yea! Finally a sure-fire way to reduce the number of chains in the lands, making us rescue-chainers more valuable!
If you all have not heard yet, Haricot's "assistant" is paying (with coins and experience) for frivolous chaining of fallen monsters for use in his recipes.

I forcast quite a few more breakages in the future for needless chaining.

I am only half sarcastic here. I would like nothing better than those who are not serious about thier chaining-training to be weeded out so as to make serious chainers more of a rarity and thus, more valuable.

-Sticky Dorf

[Drablak]

Same advice as the others, except that you need to keep only one free pack space per chain, not two, since the space the chain occupied becomes free when it breaks (a minor thing, but for people like me pack space is always a problem and one slot is one slot).

On a side note, I am concerned by the new hut near the bakery where chef haricot has set-up a food material collection. People will now chain dead creatures for a few coins and that will only increase the overall chain breakage and I am afraid that the metal scarcity will become worst. It's high time we found a new metal source...

[edited: seems Nunul has the same concerns (but expresses them differently, being a dorf and all)]

[Lorikeet]

I'd say the best advice is to not use your chain until you are prepared to have it break. With 30 Loovma trainings, I have seen chains break at the first use, with no metal back, as well as after 130 uses, with both metal back. You never know which pull will be the fatal one. Most chain addicts carry multiple chains, although I have found that waiting a bit before using a backup seems to result in fewer double breaks (one right after the other).

I personally have not noticed any difference in chaining one person or multiple people, or in chaining on the run (I usually chain on the run anyway) or being motionless. In any case, each of us has developed his or her own rules about when to chain, depending on whether it is during a hunt or as a rescue chainer.

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Drablak
[edited: seems Nunul has the same concerns (but expresses them differently, being a dorf and all)]

BACON! [:D]

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Lorikeet
I personally have not noticed any difference in chaining one person or multiple people, or in chaining on the run (I usually chain on the run anyway) or being motionless. In any case, each of us has developed his or her own rules about when to chain, depending on whether it is during a hunt or as a rescue chainer.

I make it a habit of waiting for the chained to "catch up" with me when I pass snells (sounds like kidney stones don't it? [;)] )
a: because I am paranoid that there may be such thing as chain-stretch and
b: I enjoy the ability to block chasing critters with my " [B]Shield of Death

[Mehan]

I only have 15 trainings with Loovma, and I had my first chain for 3 ooc months, with about 80 pulls on it. Since then, I've had 4 others, and each time it broke, I recovered both metals.

Right now because of my extended stay in the library, I haven't repaired my chain yet. They're nice to have in like, the foothills, where you need to run fast!!

[Lorikeet]

A "shield of death" is a good thing, but chains only break when you first try to use them. They never break after the fallen is chained, no matter how stretched they get.

[Connie_Crete]

I've heard it said that Loovma dont help nun in tha preventin o breakin. He helps in fetchin tha metal back.

I've heard o chains lastin a long time with no trainin and breakin with no trainin. I don't pay no attention ta how much I chains but chains whenever it be faster than my patience be. I breaks 2-3 chains every other storm it seems. <not averagin in my liberry times> I dun got ta "better" with tha fella befer I started chainin with impunity.

Ya, chainin be helpful, but ss naggin be useful too. Decides where ya wants alla yer coins ta go. Clothes, toys, casino, or chains. Chains be an expensive hobby.

Connie

[Kiriel]

I'm pretty sure Loovma also reduces breakage. Although an individual chain can have a long or short run, the more Loovma you have it seems the better your average pulls per chain are. Cronos used to track chain pulls for a bunch of Catenae members but I haven't seen that much lately on the subject. I do track my pulls and I seem to average about 1 pull for every rank of loovma I've put in, maybe slightly less.

[Sunoril]

Thanks for the advice, all. Guess I'll hold off chaining until I get some Loovma under my belt. As to cleaning out my pack, hm. Need to do that too, I guess. :-)

[Rincewind]

As a summary, one must balance spending ranks on loovama, versus cost of repairs. If your income is high( eg most fighters), you'd probably be better putting the ranks elsewhere, and only getting perhaps 20 loovama, unless your a serious chain addict. If you income is low( eg most mystics), you'd be better getting loovama to 50+ before even considering trying to maintaining a chain.

From personal experiences, id say that loovama has no effect on reclaiming metal, just on % chance of chain breaking. Most important (expecially given the recent hike in metal prices/scarcity) is to only chain when one has a spare spot in Inventory - as Drablak pointed out, one metal can go in the spot the chain was, so only one spare space is needed to reclaim both metal.

Lastly, the custom of tipping chainers seems to be slowly falling out of fashion. Time was when everyone would tip 50c for a chain ride, but recently, it seems to have dropped to a GK, or at most 20c commonly....and often nothing. So....dont expect to make money as a chainer any more.

Rincewind

[Hidden]

There are more chainers now than there ever have been before, and it's just not economical to tip them all anymore, nor is it fair to pick favorites and only tip them. If chaining became a special thing that not many people did again, maybe the public would become more supportive of chainers. Right now they're a dime a dozen (at least as many chainers as healers). Would you really consider giving a healer 5c each time they healed you, or a mystic 10c per boost?

[Simsu]

Originally posted by Hidden
There are more chainers now than there ever have been before, and it's just not economical to tip them all anymore, nor is it fair to pick favorites and only tip them. If chaining became a special thing that not many people did again, maybe the public would become more supportive of chainers. Right now they're a dime a dozen (at least as many chainers as healers). Would you really consider giving a healer 5c each time they healed you, or a mystic 10c per boost?

I usually ask myself a few basic questions before I consider giving a tip.

Did it save me from getting more fallen? (rocks, corpse eaters) If yes then tip.

Did it save me from being fallen for a long period of time? (out in the middle of no where and no healers to come heal or Group is falling back 1 sn'ell to heal and fight back and they take me with them instead of leaving me while they fight back to me) If yes then tip.

Did I really need to be chained before healed? (i.e. one person falls in a large group, no danger of being eaten and no reason not to just heal right there) If no then no tip.
I don't always tip when I should, sometimes it's the heat of the battle and you want to get back in real fast or sometimes you don't have the money and after the hunt you forget to run back and get some cash before the chainer logs. So forgive me if I forget to tip you once and a while.

There are some occasions where I think you should always tip.. Mostly when the chainer goes completly out of their way to rescue you or your group putting themselves at great risk. (i.e. you're fallen in the valley with 6 others and the person runs in and chains you all saving your group.)

Simsu

[Nunul]

One thing I make it a point to do:
When on a chain or when the attempt to chain me is made, if the chain breaks I make it a point to tip HEAVILY. 100-150c is what I have felt comfortable with throwing the chainer's way in the case of a break. ( that is...if I have that much on me at the time. Also, in the event that someone breaks a chain on me and loses metal as a result, I am not stingy with any spare metal I may have on my person.

I haven't been the victim of a frivolous chainer for quite a while, so I'm not sure what I would do if they broke a chain on me.
THAT being said, I am all for more breakage for frivolous chaining (frivolous depending on the chainers training...If someone put upwards from 100 ranks into loovma, its no longer frivolous, its their occupation <G>) and the growing cost/scarcity of metal.
I enjoy chaining when need be. And I train accordingly.


Anyhoo, tipping is not quite dead yet.

-Sticky Dorf

[Lex]

Originally posted by Hidden
There are more chainers now than there ever have been before, and it's just not economical to tip them all anymore, nor is it fair to pick favorites and only tip them. If chaining became a special thing that not many people did again, maybe the public would become more supportive of chainers. Right now they're a dime a dozen (at least as many chainers as healers). Would you really consider giving a healer 5c each time they healed you, or a mystic 10c per boost?

One of the reasons I rarely tip is because I also chain and don't ever ask for one. Especially on hunts, everyone's skills are shared freely. Gurgi doesn't charge me coins to brick things (although if there are less than 5 healers he may ask for a share), and I don't charge people for chianing them.

I sometimes make exceptions, like if I'm fallen in the savanna and someone comes all the way from town to chain me. But I would tip a healer in the same situation (considering my share while solo hunting is pretty much worthless now).

Lex

[Kiriel]

My general policy is to tip 10-20c when chained except in the case of special hunts (such as Dirty Dozen hunts where group members are reimbursed for broken chains) and cases when I don't have the money on me or I felt the chaining wasn't warranted. Sometimes in the heat of the situation I will forget. I also try to tip healers if they come out of their way for me or for a member of my group. Chaining is a very expensive hobby and although I don't ask for tips I don't typically turn them down, and I do my best to support other chainers. If a chainer breaks a chain in my presence I try to give them 50c, regardless of whether it was on me that they broke it.

I don't get as many tips as I used to, and I've never really gotten enough tips to cover the cost of my chains and metal, much less make any sort of profit off of it, but I find that being a chainer makes me a happier and more useful person, so it's worth every penny to me. Being a fighter it's not too hard to make money to cover the cost of my chains, but for healers and mystics I know it's a lot more difficult so I try to tip them better when I can.

Yes Gurgi doesn't charge folks to brick things, but Gurgi also doesn't take a chance at losing detha every time he bricks something and having to pay money to get it back. It's not really comparable. I figure tipping chainers encourages them to keep their chains repaired and have them when needed, which makes many rescues a lot more doable, which helps the entire community, so as far as I'm concerned it's a good practice. Although there are a ton of people who chain these days, the cost of being a chainer has also been driven up by the metal prices, so I don't think there's any less need for tips than there used to be, especially in the case of up and coming chainers who maybe can't make the funds to replace their chains as easily as I can.

[Lex]

Originally posted by Kiriel
If a chainer breaks a chain in my presence I try to give them 50c, regardless of whether it was on me that they broke it.

I usually give 50-100c if someone breaks one on me, but sometimes I give if they break one on someone else in the group.

Originally posted by Kiriel
Yes Gurgi doesn't charge folks to brick things, but Gurgi also doesn't take a chance at losing detha every time he bricks something and having to pay money to get it back.

heh, that would be amusing :)

Originally posted by Kiriel
I figure tipping chainers encourages them to keep their chains repaired and have them when needed, which makes many rescues a lot more doable, which helps the entire community, so as far as I'm concerned it's a good practice.

I agree, but on hunts, especially DP or a valley or DC rescue or somewhere there's a LOT of chaining going on, I find it hard to even keep track of who chained who. Generally when on a hunt I'll ask people not to tip me since we'll probably chain each other 2-10 times over the course of a hunt/rescue.

[Bob the Archer]

For me, tipping is a matter of courtesy.

If Someone heals me, I /thank (if karma available) and /share for as long as I can. Anyone chaining me is going to get a tip, thanks, and share as well. It may not be muchof a tip, I have never had 300 coins to rub together.

In the chaos of an invasion, things can get confused, and I appoligize if the chaier runs off before I am raised to tip.

I have never been frivolously chained. But if the intent was good, I would still thank and tip.

[Mjollnir]

As a chaining healer myself i should know the importance of tipping the chainer although i must admit i do seldom tip chainers although i do make a point to pay some coins towards a broken chain in a group whether or not they they were chaining me at the time.
I dont ask for or expect a tip (nor do i turn them down) and as often as not if i have to chain somebody to town unless im needed to heal the fallen(s) i tend to run off to some other part of the island chain on another rescue (maybe thats why im always saving for more chains)

Chaining is becoming more popular and therefore the amount of frivolous chaining is going up, personally i try only to chain as a last resort, when no other healers will respond, the area is just too dangerous to hang around or the fallen has to get back to town in a hurry

[Lorikeet]

It's always interesting to read about everyone's philosophy of chaining. I don't accept chaining tips, so I feel I can decide when it's appropriate to chain. I expect the chain to break (they all do, it seems ;) ) so I am prepared to fix it (or them as the case may be). I try to check whether or not a fallen wants to be chained in a solo-rescue situation, but I'm not always able to type while being chased by assorted critters.

I know my reasons for chaining; none of them seem frivolous to me. I sometimes use the chain to drag someone a few exiles length away from a monster so he/she won't fall again immediately, or to eliminate the possibility of a rock hit. I chain to a quieter place on a snell or to a different snell so I can heal in peace (instead of pieces).

I'm curious to understand what is meant by "frivolous chaining." The only thing that comes to mind is when someone is chained away while healers are en route to heal, or when the party is still around. Is there more?

[Lex]

Originally posted by Lorikeet
I'm curious to understand what is meant by "frivolous chaining." The only thing that comes to mind is when someone is chained away while healers are en route to heal, or when the party is still around. Is there more?

I would call chaining someone from the rat huts or the east field "frivolous", I suppose, unless there are 9 people clanning and no one can come. Maybe to some people it means any chaining when it's completely unnecessary, which I see a lot. Sometimes it's a newer exile and they don't yet know what's dangerous or when you are just running a beast around a tree and can get the fallen soon.

But I've seen Catanae people who chain like idiots and are just embarassing to witness, so it's not just restricted to newbies.

Lex

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Lorikeet

I'm curious to understand what is meant by "frivolous chaining." The only thing that comes to mind is when someone is chained away while healers are en route to heal, or when the party is still around. Is there more?

An example is when a chainer is less patient and would rather chain quickly to the healers rather than guard the corpse from rats while healers get there.

[Lorikeet]

Originally posted by Nunul


An example is when a chainer is less patient and would rather chain quickly to the healers rather than guard the corpse from rats while healers get there.

I'm curious (again). If a healer sunstones he/she is on the way, or if the fallen says that someone has toggle-talked already, it fits into my previous category of frivolous chaining. However, if the chainer is in a hurry and comes across a fallen, and the choice is leaving the fallen or chaining to healers, I'm not so sure it is "frivolous". Certainly the fallen should be given a chance to choose. For me, the bottom line is whether or not someone is already on the way.

[Simsu]

Originally posted by Lorikeet

I know my reasons for chaining; none of them seem frivolous to me. I sometimes use the chain to drag someone a few exiles length away from a monster so he/she won't fall again immediately, or to eliminate the possibility of a rock hit. I chain to a quieter place on a snell or to a different snell so I can heal in peace (instead of pieces).


Think of the reasons or situations when you don't chain.. When you see others chaining in those situations do you consider that frivolous? What about in situations when someone chaining causes a signifigant negative effect, that had no possible possitive outcome?

Trying to describe a frivolous situation or action is very hard since its a objective term that means many things to different people. Short of describing every specific event I don't think you're going to get a concrete answer.

Simsu

[Blaise]

Speaking as a relatively unsophisticated chainer...

My decision to chain is influenced by a lot of factors, but it usually boils down to the question of whether or not I could survive staying in place to heal. As a moonstone healer I have to be touching, I can't run and proxi as more skilled healers could.

Generally I've taken some damage by the time it's clear I need to either chain or leave, and once I start chaining my self-heal will slow to the point where I can't afford to endure many assaults on the way.

I don't often stop to explain what I'm doing -- I can't type fast and avoid trees with a bunch of mahas behind me -- and not getting some feedback from people is something I need to improve. Maybe a macro to ask about chaining preference while I'm dancing around dodging whatever dropped them.

Even though I may inconvenience people sometimes, it does mean that I can offer help to people in places like Noids, where it's unlikely I would ever be able to survive in-place healing.