Fighter tests & training

[Ruen]

Having just passed the second circle test and gained access to the four second circle trainers, I'm thinking about my training and where to go from here. I have some thoughts and I'm wondering if some of the more experienced folks could give me some feedback

I have a fair idea of what I'll need to pass the third circle test from listening to other exiles, namely three times the atkus training I currently have and a whole lot more defense. The thing is, I don't want to train to just pass the next test, I want to train to pass all the tests and be an effective fighter in my own style (high swings) along the way.

I've been looking at the training records of other fighters in the PSA rank tracker, and I've noticed something: fighters who are in the high 2nd circle to low 4th circle range seem to have a whole bunch of extra atkus, but when I look at the more advanced fighters, they have balanced that with extra histia and darkus and the other components of evus to bring it more in line with what evus teaches. Since Evus trains in a more efficient way than the other trainers, that make me think they might have been better off sticking with Evus all along instead of getting the extra Atkus training needed to pass the 3rd circle test sooner.

What I'd like to know is what are the limiting factors on the higher level circle tests (4th and above) and how that differs from the stuff that people need for hunting at that level.

Thanks!
Ruen

[Fist of Fluff]

The reason for second to low fourth circle fighters to have an unproportionately high amount of Atkus is to be able to hit things that they can get a lot of experience for. For example, a second circle fighter hunting MI who has 100 Atkus is not likely to get much experience. The same fighter with higher Atkus will be able to hit Sasquatches and Valley Cougars, which are very high experience for that fighter, and is more likely to be invited on hunts to places where he or she can tag. Often, a group cannot wait for everyone to hit these things because they do not have someone who can brick 100% or extremely have fast healers so fighters who can hit easily (or reasonably well) are the ones who get good experience for these things.

Fighters usually round out their skills once they have enough Atkus to hit what they vanquish. In the long run Evus is more efficient, but a fighter who can hit high-experience creatures early on will gain experience faster that one who cannot. Having 5 swings with an axe is nice, but if you can only hit what you slaughter then ranks will be slow in coming. I have trained my Atkus down to a little over two swings on a few occasions and then trained my balance back up. It hurt my coin hunting efficiency, but my group hunts were more fun because I could hit things instead of standing there whiffing with all my swings.

If gaining ranks fast isn't your focus and you want to maintain high swings then I suggest Evus/Swengus/Detha. Evus will give a good proportion of each skill, Swengus will gradually increase your swings and give you more defense from Balthus, and Detha will increase your defense.

[Drablak]

I can't help you on fighter training but congrats on the 2nd

[Jeanne]

Originally posted by Ruen
What I'd like to know is what are the limiting factors on the higher level circle tests (4th and above) and how that differs from the stuff that people need for hunting at that level.

I'm not a 4th-circle although I've been told I could pass if I got a bit more Atkus so I'll answer.

I don't train with Evus because I don't like the percentages of what he trains. In my opinion, he doesn't have enough Darkus and Detha and your number of swings goes down slowly unless you train some Swengus to compensate for this.

I agree that Evus is a very efficient trainer in terms of the bonus ranks but I don't want to be a fighter like him.

[Ruen]

Thanks for the answers.

The high-atkus-at-first strategy makes more sense now. On the other hand, since my time is limited to two or three trips out a zodiac, most of my experience is gained from my studies, and efficient coin hunting when out is a concern so I can pay for the library fees. On the other hand I have been taken along to some interesting places lately where well timed swings from the rear have not always been enough to get me a tag. I guess I should see whether I can spend enough time on tagging style hunts to make it worthwhile for me to train less efficiently.

[Steady Foot]

I have been told and it seems correct due to my own experience that you will need 150+ ranks of Atkus to be able to hit the Orga Rage in the 3rd circle test. Presently with about 145 ranks of Atkus I can only hit the Rage after it swings once and then not consistantly. Haven't passed the third circle test yet. If I could hit the Rage consistently I would pass. Am usually in the high green by the time I face the Rage, having taken care of the other critters.

Detha is a good consideration if you plan to brick or want to solo.

Trolius is good for solo hunters, so you can self heal out of town.

While training Atkus or Darkus you will notice your number of swings and speed of swing recovery decreasing. So you will also have to train with Swengus and then Baltus and Regia depending on your preference. Someone suggested to me train 5 ranks Atkus then 5+ Swengus to balance out the swing degradation. That way you stay balanced along the way.

Don't forget to smell the roses along the way. Like possiblely training for Path Finding and Chaining. Looking at what potions and items can be made to enhance fighter abilities, etc.

Almost 3rd Circle but not yet.[:)]
Steady

[Steady Foot]

most of my experience is gained from my studies

I understand that, me too but there are areas close to town that you can gain experience quickly systematically, by just continually clearing areas that dispatch and kill. When you turn to red run back to town to get healed.

As you gain more experience the ranks come slower. I am presently looking for other areas to solo in. Might have to go off Island.

You probably know all this soo......its just an old exile rattling on.

[:)]

[Kiriel]

Ruen, there are many different ways to train, but based on what I know about your hunting style I'm going to make a suggested approach, one very similar actually to how I trained (feel free to ignore it of course). Since you're still hunting mainly in the coin oriented areas where your atkus is more than sufficient, I would start by increasing detha. 75 detha will do you an amazing amount of good in terms of sturdiness at your level- you'll want more eventually but that's about right for south forest. That was the first thing I trained when I hit 2nd circle, and I found it really made me feel a lot less fragile and more independent.

Once you get your defense up to a happy level, balance out your weaknesses a little till you feel comfortable with the strength of your swing, the amount of them, your health, etc. Accept that boloks are going to probably scare the living daylights out of you till you get 800 or so ranks although you'll get to a point where if you're high health you can take them on fairly well alone if you go heal up afterwards.

At some point either you'll start to get tired of the same old hunting grounds or you'll start having problems getting much experience there. This is the time when you want to start thinking about pumping up your atkus. I waited longer than most to do that but really it's just a matter of when it's right for you. 100 atkus or so is a good amount to start hitting things at places like noth. When you start getting close to 3rd you'll want about 150 to hit the rage in the test and some other things in higher level hunting grounds. Don't forget to balance out your new atkus with balance or you'll be swinging once a milennium (I trained 50 atkus at a stretch once and that was really unbalancing).

Evus is a great trainer, but if you just train him you will be very slow at passing 3rd. Whether or not this bothers you is up to you. Generally I train to pump up my weaknesses, then train Evus whenever I'm relatively happy with my balance of skills. There's very little detha in Evus, but if you wanted to follow the training suggestion above, you could get some detha, then train evus till you wanted to pass the test and then go with an atkus/swengus mix.

[Ruen]

Originally posted by Steady Foot
Don't forget to smell the roses along the way. Like possiblely training for Path Finding and Chaining.

Yes, well, 30 lessons from Loovma Geer is on the list right after I finish up this bit of Evus, get 40 Regia lessons and 100 Detha lessons. (Hmm, that'll take a while) I despair of ever obtaining the metal necessary to make a chain, though.

[Kiriel]

Originally posted by Steady Foot

As you gain more experience the ranks come slower. I am presently looking for other areas to solo in. Might have to go off Island.
[:)]

I started hunting a lot on FI when I got to the point where I was sick of the main island's critters and was having trouble getting experience for them. Night wendies are fairly good experience (not sure if you've outgrown them yet expwise) and there are usually a lot of em on FI. If you already have almost enough atkus to pass 3rd, you might be ok at hitting baltoise with timed swings in which case it's not too hard to get a small group of folks together to hunt the KI or MI waters. Baltoise are great experience at your level and provide an interesting hunting challenge. Finding good solo experience at the level you're at gets pretty difficult and it only gets worse with time. I'm lucky if I find one thing I dispatch to kill solo these days (mainly cave maha ruknees, but I suspect it won't be long before I slaughter them).

[Ruen]

Thanks Kiriel!

I was planning on getting 100 Detha soon, but I feel I need some Regia first. I have 5 swings currently, but if I swing out (my current strategy when boloks show up) it takes forever for my balance to come back. The rest sounds like a good way to go for me. I still kill artaks, so it'll be a while before I outgrow South Forest.

I'm not in a big rush to pass third. I guess I didn't mention that I passed the 2nd circle test on my first attempt, and it wasn't what I'd call a close fight. I can probably wait at least another two years before even bothering to take the 3rd circle test. [:D]

[Steady Foot]

Regia does make a big difference. Currently I have 75+ of Regia. My actual swings are about 2.5 but with the Regia ranks I get 3 fast swings and then fast recovering of balance. Very nice.

I am planning to start exploring the Islands getting a little bored around town.[:)]

Kiri, where is a good place to start for an almost 3rd circle?

[Hor]

Hello Steady,

some encouragement from a more-or-less fresh 3rd circler.

It took me over 6 zordiacs from the first time I got the rage
down to red to the time I passed that test 8)

So being "almost" 3rd circle can be a lengthy status. 8)


Otherwise I agree to the most stuff said here - I was notorious
for begin a low-atkus fen-fighter. I avoided atkus almost like
bathing! But then I decided to put some effort in passing the
test and trained quickly from like 80 to 170 (Fens have low
initial atkus and need more then the other races).
In the progress I went down from almost four swings to barely two.

Since I passed I trained some swengus in alternation to atkus -
Now I am very close to have 200, which should be quite
a fair amount for most areas I try to tag along.

Of course after I hit the 200 atkus mark its back to Skea! 8)

Regards and good luck!

Hor

[Hidden]

Since nobody has responded with the actual limiting factors for the tests, I may as well...

Atkuswise: 50, 140, 200, 250, 300.
Defense (balthus + detha): 50-100, 400, 600, 800
Histia: 0, 100, 100, 150, 200
Darkus: 0, 0, 100, 150, 200

As for your training plan, since lots-of-swings is generally more of an offensive style, I would forego Detha if I were you, except perhaps 50 as lag-protection. You can always conserve swings if you really want to protect yourself, since Balthus serves as expendable defense.. Get your swings to a place you like, then train Evus until they decrease noticeably, then swengus until you're happy again. Rinse and repeat. Wipe hands on pants.

By the time you get to a point at which this training regimen won't be optimal you'll be 6th circle and know better than some dumb healer :)

[Hor]

Hello Hidden,

I might add that these numbers might be correct for a Zo -
at least as a Fen I needed much higher values on all
trainiers. (Especially Atkus and Darkus)

Regards,

Hor

[Ruen]

Thanks for the numbers Hidden. I'm going to assume that being a clumsy sylvan, I'm going to need more or everything, but at least I know now when I should take the next test.

I'll try the low detha approach for a bit, I can always get more.

[Altir]

Aye, may depend on yer race.

Fer me fer 3rd twas somethin like:

150 atkus, 50 histia, 50 darkus, 325ish darkus/detha with help from me greataxe.

Altir

[Bob the Archer]

With (exacty) 50 Atkus, and a bit more of Swengus, Evus, Troilus, and 20 some odd Histia, I am still getting a Most who passed were stronger than you message for the 2nd Circle test.

[Steady Foot]

I had 75+ Atkus, 80+ Swengus, 40 or so Evus, 65+ Hista and some minor other stuff to pass 2nd Circle test.

Have another charter who had about 200 Evus, 75 Hista to make 2nd circle.

Both characters are human.

[Hidden]

All the numbers up through 3rd circle are minimums for all races. I have a sylvan fighter and a dwarf fighter (basically, two different ends of the spectrum).

Remember that these numbers are VERY minimum. 90% of people will need either lots of practice, luck, or more ranks to actually pass the tests.

[Unregistered]

**Aerizith**

Basicly, people helping with your training is all fine and dandy, but everyone is an expert at their own ways of training, which may or may not be for you. I for one would tell you that evus is an idiot since you get evus ranks without training him, and that swinging trainers aren't really something to be strong in since I haven't trained with any swinging trainer sence I got swingus to toes and that was about 300 ranks ago and I had 2 swings then and have 2 swings now. Enough f the drabble.

Train some detha train some atkus, numbers dont matter since its different for every race, and I think sex even has something to do with it too. By now you know what each trainer does and if you dont, you'll learn the ones you dont real fast. You should be hunting at least once when out of the lib, you probably have a favored hunting ground. You know the critters there, how many hits you cant take from them, how many hits the can take from you, if you can brick them effectively, and how much exp you get from them.

want to miss less; atkus
want to take more hits; histia
want to take less hits; detha
want more swings; balthus
want to gain balance quickly; regia
want to kill a critter in less hits/time; darkus

balance out your skills the way you want to and when your ready to pass 3rd/4th/5th/6th you'll pass. If you get invited to that noth/valley/mi/ki hunt and don't like the way your char felt but want to hunt there more often, train to make yourself feel comforatable.

You seem to like swings, others are fine with 2 or 3 so their way of training isn't for you. Some people only care about hiting, vanqs and getting those ranks, if you take your time, their way isn't for you. If you like those big hunts some just tag, some are bricks, ect their way of training might not be for you.

Once you know the trainers, you know how you want your char to be so train him/her that way.

[Ruen]

Originally posted by Hidden

Atkuswise: 50, 140, 200, 250, 300.
Defense (balthus + detha): 50-100, 400, 600, 800
Histia: 0, 100, 100, 150, 200
Darkus: 0, 0, 100, 150, 200


By the way, Hidden, it looks to me like the defense numbers for one of the tests is missing. I'm assuming that you meant 50-100 to pass 2nd, 400 to pass third, etc. Is the missing defense number for the 6th circle test?

[Hidden]

Oops, my bad. The missing number is indeed for 6th, which is theoretically about 900. Getting way up there it's much harder to tell. Crunch passed 6th with about (at a guess) 400 defense, most of it constantly spent, so at that point there's really no one formula to pass tests.

[Ruen]

I took a good hard look at the numbers while I've been stuck in the library, and I think that thanks to all the kind people who have answered my questions I have a good plan to go forward with.

If I stay with my current mix (except with added regia so I don't die of old age waiting for my balance) I will be just 100 defense short of passing 3rd circle by the time I have 500 evus. This is based on Hidden's numbers. I'd be about 200 defense short of passing 4th by the time I reached 600 evus. If I get 100 lessons from Detha before taking the 3rd circle test, and then another 100 lessons from her after, I'd pass those tests a lot sooner than I would otherwise, and then if I just continued with my basic plan I'd be right on track for the 5th and 6th circle tests, assuming that the world doesn't end long before I get there. My swings would probably either stay high or even increase slightly.

Or put more simply, looking Hidden's numbers makes me agree with Fist of Fluff taking the evus/swengus/detha approach is right for my style, and makes me agree with Kiriel that getting a chunk of extra Detha real soon is a good idea.

Of course my way is still going to be the long way. It looks like I might have over 1200 ranks total before I pass 3rd.

[Anaeka]

I'm pretty sure there are people with more ranks than that, and still haven't passed 3rd circle. Of course, I'm a healer so I don't know anything about that though, just keep up persistence and patience.

[Konoko]

I had I think approximately 1050 when I passed third. But I wasn't trying to use tons of atkus to do it. I think I had 150 or 160 (I have 160 now I don't think I trained it except maybe 5 ranks since passing third).

Patience was the big key! I have none... :)

When you're close, have an experienced exile watch you fight the rage in the coliseum or somewhere to offer any tips. Kiri did this for me and it was a big help!

Konoko

[Delirium]

Passing circle tests isn't everything. I've been exiled nearly 7 years (IC) and I am still 2nd circle. Some exiles train only to pass tests, but then wind up having trouble in the field. Some high circle fighters run in fear from vermine swarms. I think it is better to train how you want and let the tests come as they may. When I passed 2nd, it was an accident.[;)]

[iTornado]

Anaeka : I know second circle fighter (Lumpy) with 1900 ranks ! So tests doesn't mean much

[tomair]

hoi,

Become a Zo and train Darkus.....( or Crunch)

so my bro tells me
He should know
he's the never falling Zo:)

[;)]

[Unregistered]

I have been most successful training my weakest skill. This seems to make me less vulnerable, since I am better off in the inevitable situations in which I must rely on that skill.

In dangerous situations (tests or difficult hunts), watch how you usually fail. If you fall too quickly, train detha or histia. If you take too long to kill things, try regia and darkus. If you are wiffing more than 30% of the time, then you need more atkus. Darkus and atkus will cause you to use up more balthus with each swing, so I train some Swingus to offset those.

Tests are just too upsetting. I do not start testing until I've already soloed one or two of the critters (Feral, rage, fury, banshee, etc.) out in the field.
Don't let yourself become consumed by them.

Elise
/(^_^)\

[Michael]

Originally posted by Ruen
Having just passed the second circle test and gained access to the four second circle trainers, I'm thinking about my training and where to go from here. I have some thoughts and I'm wondering if some of the more experienced folks could give me some feedback Ruen

Get 200 Detha. Then train some other stuff and come back and get some more detha.

Michael

[Michael]

Originally posted by Steady Foot
I have been told and it seems correct due to my own experience that you will need 150+ ranks of Atkus to be able to hit the Orga Rage in the 3rd circle test. Presently with about 145 ranks of Atkus I can only hit the Rage after it swings once and then not consistantly. Haven't passed the third circle test yet. If I could hit the Rage consistently I would pass. Am usually in the high green by the time I face the Rage, having taken care of the other critters.
Steady

Get 300 atkus (320 for a fen or thoom or halfling). This will let you hit damn near anything in the lands that you are going to hunt often.

And as for how much training for fighter tests at the top levels is differnt for "field training", there is not really any difference. Contrary to what some people think, fighters cant unbalance their training like healers can and pass their tests. Fighters need everything for their tests, histia, atkus, defence, and kill rate (this is NOT the same as swing rate, in fact killing power has way more to do with darkus than regia).

There really isnt anything wrong with training for the tests, because you need all of those things to hunt at the higher levels anyway.

[Ruen]

Originally posted by Michael


Get 200 Detha. Then train some other stuff and come back and get some more detha.


Thanks Michael. I'm training that now, from Xepel actually. I'm planning on getting 100 now, and 100 after I pass the third circle test, which I estimate will happen about the time I have 1200 ranks. If my situation and style were different I would follow your advice more closely. Right now keeping my swings high is still a priority, as I can often find a much more powerful fighter to tag along with, making my own defense less crucial.

Originally posted by Michael

and kill rate (this is NOT the same as swing rate, in fact killing power has way more to do with darkus than regia).


Really? That's interesting. I would have thought that to maximize your kill rate, you'd want your Regia training to be roughly equal to the sum of your Atkus and Darkus training. Put another way, you'd want to balance how fast you can swing (Regia) with how effective your swing is (Atkus & Darkus). My training is currently a lot like this, though a bit heavy on the Regia, and I'm pretty happy with my kill rate, though this is South Forest we're talking about. If its not too personal a question, is your own (obviously effective) training really that different from those ratios? I'm curious....

[Michael]

Originally posted by Ruen

Really? That's interesting. I would have thought that to maximize your kill rate, you'd want your Regia training to be roughly equal to the sum of your Atkus and Darkus training. Put another way, you'd want to balance how fast you can swing (Regia) with how effective your swing is (Atkus & Darkus). My training is currently a lot like this, though a bit heavy on the Regia, and I'm pretty happy with my kill rate, though this is South Forest we're talking about. If its not too personal a question, is your own (obviously effective) training really that different from those ratios? I'm curious....

Off hand I am not sure what my regia message is, but I know its very low for a 6th circle fighter. I can swing about once every 4 seconds. But 300 darkus on a Zo deals a lot of damage, i often one hit tors.

A good rule is that if its something you dont already 1 hit, darkus is going to help your killing power a lot more than regia. Look at the 2 extreams: who deals damage quicker, Shadrock or Crunch? (the answer is crunch unless you are fighting vermine).

I have soled a thunder lyfe at night, something that most fighters with faster regia cant do. Of course if you already one hit most artaks then more darkus isnt gonna help much in SF, but hopefully you will out grow SF someday or your going to get very bored and leave the game.

And belive it or not Darkus is a huge key to tests. I would never have passed 6th when I did without mine.

[Ruen]

Originally posted by Michael

Look at the 2 extreams: who deals damage quicker, Shadrock or Crunch? (the answer is crunch unless you are fighting vermine).


Well, to be honest I'm mostly fighting vermine. Large vermine, IPs and Giant vermine are my currently my main source of income. But I take your point and I'll look into more Darkus in the future.

Originally posted by Michael

Of course if you already one hit most artaks then more darkus isnt gonna help much in SF, but hopefully you will out grow SF someday or your going to get very bored ...

I certainly don't 1-hit artaks. What I can do is take down a bolok by using all six swings at once, which is my best option there as I don't brick them and they tear big holes in me. It'll be a while before I outgrow SF, but I'm in no danger of being bored. I can always go challenge myself someplace harder. A couple of zodiacs ago I soloed mid pass, which probably sounds like no big deal to you, but with fewer than 430 ranks at the time, it was a big deal to me. I will admit, more darkus would have helped there.

[Michael]

Originally posted by Ruen


I certainly don't 1-hit artaks. What I can do is take down a bolok by using all six swings at once, which is my best option there as I don't brick them and they tear big holes in me. It'll be a while before I outgrow SF, but I'm in no danger of being bored. I can always go challenge myself someplace harder. A couple of zodiacs ago I soloed mid pass, which probably sounds like no big deal to you, but with fewer than 430 ranks at the time, it was a big deal to me. I will admit, more darkus would have helped there.

This is the one of 2 ways that darkus is better for kill rate on "bigger" (relative to your level) stuff, not including that its just a more effective trainer than regia.

While you are swinging 6 times, the bolok is also swinging back at you. If you have to swing 6 times before it dies it prolly gets to swing at you 3 times. If you had enough darkus to one hit it it would only get to swing once. This is also much more effective for critters that you have to hit and run, you end up taking way less damage.

The other place that darkus is far more effective than more swings is on super troilus critters. If you havent fought a stinging beetle or a strong night lyfe, its really hard to understand how fast they heal. While you are swinging those extra times, its healing like a mother fucker. So the faster you lay the damage on the better. I am just guessing here, but I would say that 2 swings at 300 darkus is about 40% more effective than 4 swings at 150 when dealing with super troilus critters.

SF might be the bomb-digity for you right now, but you will out grow it, and prolly a lot sooner than you think. If you dont chances are you will get bored with CL and quit.

[Nunul]

Mike, well spoken.

MHO and training thoughts: (the anatomy of a dorf)
I only have one reason to try to eventually pass 4th circle: Rodnus.

When I solo hunt, it's for coins...I do quite well coin-wise and I need go no further than the adjoining forests. I brick everything I bother to hunt for coins: Artak, boloks, maha (regular flavor that is).

Passes: Too far to travel for minimal coins.
Noids: Same as passes...and I'm scared of spiders.

I'm getting bulked up in ranks for Chaining and Felling (anti-falling).

Detha: for chaining and all around bricking

Fell: for hitting to kill when in a group. (I have let my atkus/darkus idle since I have no problem with critters I bother to hunt solo, and when in a group tagging, I can switch to the dagger to tag without fear of hitting too hard.)

Regia/Balthus: Keeping my fell from flying out of my hands and not allowing me to swing as I gain in fell ranks. (which also helps out with previously mentioned tags) This also helps keep my balance up to brick better.

Hista: Prolly a little above toes with her. I can take a few whacks, which helps me in a group situation when forced to retreat with fallens on chain from say: HH or OV, where I'd be taking bolts.

Loovma: Toes and climbing. I try to stick a rank into it each time I use my chain, viewing it as a nod to the gods of chaining. I have hope also, that Loovma will someday help with repairs and such.

So Nunul, a work in progress, is a Fell-Chainer.
If I ever get to 4th, those healing me will not have such a burden healing me 8).

(Cheer up, Mike. You know what they say,
Life's a piece of shit,
When you look at it.
Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true.
You'll see it's all a show,
Keep 'em laughing as you go.
Just remember that the last laugh is on you!
And...
...always look on the bright side of life!
/action whistles (http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_sounds/lb/brian.mid)
[:)]

[Michael]

Originally posted by Nunul
Mike, well spoken.

If I ever get to 4th, those healing me will not have such a burden healing me 8).

[:)]

Thats not 100% true. You will heal faster, but having more spirit adds faustus to the healer thats healing you. This means it sucks their spirit down faster.

For some healers this isnt a big deal, but for extreamly balanced (have exactly enough respia for their faustus), or healers that just plain have shitty self heal it can really drain them.

I sure notice it on my healer when I try and heal someone with spiritus or rodnus.

Michael

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Michael


Thats not 100% true. You will heal faster, but having more spirit adds faustus to the healer thats healing you. This means it sucks their spirit down faster.

For some healers this isnt a big deal, but for extreamly balanced (have exactly enough respia for their faustus), or healers that just plain have shitty self heal it can really drain them.

Understood, but the quicker I get healed, the better the chance of the healer staying vertical <G>.

Originally posted by Michael
I sure notice it on my healer...

\ponder Holyjesusjumpedthebaldheadedpalamino...where the heck does this guy fit THAT into his schedule?!?

[Ruen]

Originally posted by Michael

SF might be the bomb-digity for you right now, but you will out grow it, and prolly a lot sooner than you think. If you dont chances are you will get bored with CL and quit.

Don't worry about me getting bored Michael. One of the great advantages of not ignoring social skills is I can usually sucker 4th circle fighters and healers into taking me to more interesting places if I put any effort into it.

Of course I'd be happy for you to show me the finer points of darkus sometime in the lands. Perhaps in TGBG or somewhere "instructive" like that. [;)]

[Hidden]

Minor correction about Spirit/Rodnus: it only increases the *health* drain of the person healing you, and only by about half as much as if they had trained the ammount of extra faustus it gives them.

50 rodnus is the absolute BEST value, rank-per-rank, of any trainer in the game for party-play, and only a tiny (20 rank) loss if you're solo-hunting.

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Hidden
50 rodnus is the absolute BEST value, rank-per-rank, of any trainer in the game for party-play, and only a tiny (20 rank) loss if you're solo-hunting.

Hmmmm? Ya lost me here sir.
I get the BEST value part...but what are you refering to as the rank loss?

[Steady Foot]

This is very interesting. I have just turned 3rd circle. Other then coining and rescue I have become bored with SF and NF.

Where are the 3rd circle trainers?

Been looking for some groups to hang with but it usually means a relatively long time OCC. I can only be on about 2 hours max per day.
Any suggestions for ranks and just in general?

[Nunul]

Do a quick search for fell blade, blood blade and goss (gossamer) blade in this forum. Plenty of info to be had 8)

[Steady Foot]

Do a quick search for fell blade, blood blade and goss (gossamer) blade in this forum. Plenty of info to be had 8)

Thanks I will look!!

[Michael]

Originally posted by Steady Foot


Thanks I will look!!

There are also some trainers just beyond HH too. The 3rd circle ones SUCK, but rodnus isnt terrible i guess (if you have a shit load of hisia, like 250+. or brick a LOT.).

But Rodnus is a 4th circle trainer. There are two 3rd circle trainers there also.

One untrains a rank of evus to give you 2 ranks of regia, and the other untrains a rank of evus to give you 2 ranks of darkus. Its really just a way to untrain. Evus is a very powerful trainer, so loosing evus ranks hurts a whole lot. Dont fuck with these trainers unless you really know what your doing.

[Steady Foot]

HH not sure where you mean there. I have heard of the trainers that take EVUS away. I am not to happy with doing that. Thanks for the heads up.

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Michael


There are also some trainers just beyond HH too. The 3rd circle ones SUCK, but rodnus isnt terrible i guess (if you have a shit load of hisia, like 250+. or brick a LOT.).

But Rodnus is a 4th circle trainer. There are two 3rd circle trainers there also.

One untrains a rank of evus to give you 2 ranks of regia, and the other untrains a rank of evus to give you 2 ranks of darkus. Its really just a way to untrain. Evus is a very powerful trainer, so loosing evus ranks hurts a whole lot. Dont fuck with these trainers unless you really know what your doing.

What he said. (minus the F-bombs...and Rodnus is a 4th circle trainer Mikey)
When I passed 3rd, I visited the Evus-for-Regia trader in the grotto. After having gotten to where I was mostly thru Evus, I managed to whittle my swings down to 2 with a dagger. The trader allowed me to recover my balance a fair bit quicker...I'm a hapy dorf now with 3 swings when not holding my shield*. When fell-blading, I really appreciate the rate of balance recovery, as I am uncomfortable as a sitting duck.
YMMV, its definately not for everybody.

*I'm working my way to shield-less fighting. It's a noticable difference in my # of swings at the moment as I seem to be on the threshold of a swing. Does anyone have anything like hard numbers to give an idea of shield/detha value? If its a small amount, I may give it up altogether.

[Kiriel]

Congrats on passing 3rd Steady!

HH is Hatred's Hollow, the snell past Wisher's Gate in Snaggy. Basically it's pretty hard to get there without a full party of folks. The only real use for the two 3rd circle trainers is if you screw up your training a lot to pass the test and then want to use them to tweak your training. For most people it's not worth training. The special weapons on the other hand are handy for some folks, depending on what interests you.

BTW, be sure to post your circle passing on the Clan Timeline (http://www.windsofdawn.org/timeline.html). Poesy also passed 2nd recently, congrats Poesy! She should really add her circle passing to the timeline too.

[Steady Foot]

Kiri, I have the mov too. Its not that impressive.[:)]

I have 2 almost 3 swings with an Axe and shield. I trained a lot of Regia earlier. Now I am mainly training Darkus.

Do you loose swings while training Darkus?

[Hidden]

50 rodnus training gives 30 histia and an additional 80 faustus and 90 respia to any healer healing you at a given time. If you're alone, and thus with no healer bonuses, it's only a 20 rank loss. If you have 1 healer in your party, the group is ahead 150 ranks. 2 healers, 320 ranks. 3 healers, 490 ranks, etc.

[Lex]

Originally posted by Steady Foot
Do you loose swings while training Darkus?

Yes, but not anywhere near as bad as when training Atkus.

Lex

[Lex]

Originally posted by Hidden
50 rodnus training gives 30 histia and an additional 80 faustus and 90 respia to any healer healing you at a given time.

I thought it worked as a percentage, not a set amount, for the healer healng you?

Lex

[Hidden]

It's definitely a set ammount. The respia numbers may be off (it was just a guess. Fill in the exact appropriate ammount so that the healer won't notice any spirit drain difference), but 50 rodnus gives exactly 80 faustus, just like my 800 spirtus gives 640 faustus (rodnus is precisely twice as effective as Spirtus).

[Fist of Fluff]

I had heard about getting 30 Histia from 50 Rodnus once but was still skeptical about it. I plan to max Rodnus soon and then finish my Histia training up to 300 from the 260 I have now.

So, Rodnus would put me at 290 Histia if this is the case? Sounds like the best deal in the lands. Don't tell the GMs or they'll "fix" it. [:p]

My opinion of Histia training: Histia rocks. I had 120 for a long time and after passing 5th I decided that I wanted a lot more because I was falling way too much on KI hunts. I can now go toe-to-toe with Cold and Starbuck Lyfes and count on getting my hits in without/before falling. I don't have a chance of bricking these creatures in the forseeable future but Histia has made up for what I lack in defense.

When solo coin hunting I take a huge number of luck hits from ferals, vermine, and all that stuff. Histia is as necessary for a solo hunter as Troilus, probably more so, in my opinion.

I recommend 150 as a good amount for most fighters, 200 for those who hunt KI or other such places. You can get by with less but I found myself on my back more than I liked.

[Michael]

Originally posted by Fist of Fluff
I had heard about getting 30 Histia from 50 Rodnus once but was still skeptical about it. I plan to max Rodnus soon and then finish my Histia training up to 300 from the 260 I have now.

So, Rodnus would put me at 290 Histia if this is the case? Sounds like the best deal in the lands. Don't tell the GMs or they'll "fix" it. [:p]

My opinion of Histia training: Histia rocks. I had 120 for a long time and after passing 5th I decided that I wanted a lot more because I was falling way too much on KI hunts. I can now go toe-to-toe with Cold and Starbuck Lyfes and count on getting my hits in without/before falling. I don't have a chance of bricking these creatures in the forseeable future but Histia has made up for what I lack in defense.

When solo coin hunting I take a huge number of luck hits from ferals, vermine, and all that stuff. Histia is as necessary for a solo hunter as Troilus, probably more so, in my opinion.

I recommend 150 as a good amount for most fighters, 200 for those who hunt KI or other such places. You can get by with less but I found myself on my back more than I liked.

I do not reccomend getting histia over defence, not by a long shot. Yes training to brick takes a lot more ranks, but its so much better once you do. 150 histia is fine.

The more damage a party takes, the more time you spend healing and retreating. A party of detha whores can mow down lyfes faster than a party of kill freaks anyday. I hunt KI enough to know. 80% of the time the last one standing is the one with the most defence. I can fight in a swarm of flower lyfes for a damn long time if i keep my balance up, but the histia freaks wouldnt last 10 seconds if they didnt brick them.

Histia has its place, but its no replacement for detha. Gurgi had about 100 histia till he hit 1k in detha. Of all the fighter trainers, histia should prolly give you the lowest message. That is definatly the case for me, my next message is double the one i get from histia.

[Steady Foot]

Histia has its place, but its no replacement for detha. Gurgi had about 100 histia till he hit 1k in detha. Of all the fighter trainers, histia should prolly give you the lowest message.

Thanks for the conformation! I was thinking the same thing. To pass 3rd circle test I had 160 detha (plus or minus). I am low on Hista, maybe 100 counting Evus ranks. After my test I have started training with Detha again and will for awhile.[:)]

[Fist of Fluff]

Originally posted by Michael


I do not reccomend getting histia over defence, not by a long shot.

I didn't intend it to sound like Histia was a replacement for defense, rather that Histia should not be ignored as a trainer. I already had 300 Detha and over 350 Balthus when I started my long stint with Histia so I had a decent amount of defense (enough to pass 5th circle!) but it will still be a long time before I can brick Flower Lyfes. I leave this to people who have invested a huge amount of training into their defense. I'll get there eventually, but in the meantime I'll take my hits and swing away. [:D]

Originally posted by Michael


Get 200 Detha. Then train some other stuff and come back and get some more detha.

If I had to do things over again, this is what I would do. I went a long time with very poor defense and didn't know what I was missing until I got my Detha up and was able to brick what I hunted. 300 Detha is enough to let you brick an Orga Rage at zero balance.

My Hisita message is higher than my Darkus message, but 200 Darkus isn't that bad! [:p]

As good as Detha is, you still can't brick small rocks. [;)]

[Steady Foot]

Ok I see you all rising in ranks. Any suggestions on how to get ranks quickly or more quickly than studying? Unfortunatly I am on during prime time, only. Would appreciate any advise!!

[Hidden]

Step 1) Get enough Atkus to hit things that are really solid vanqs for you.
Step 2) Get enough Histia/Detha so you don't fall to them constantly.
Step 3) Kiss rank whore ass until you start getting invited on hunts.
Step 4) Hunt.
Step 5) Profit!

Unfortunately, prime time is just about the WORST possible time to do this, since many people (myself included) refuse to play PT because of the slowdown.

[Kiriel]

Given that your schedule is fairly limited I highly recommend you try to organize hunts in advance Steady. I don't normally hunt during primetime but if you wanted to go out rank whoring for an hour or two I could make an exception :) Pick a time for a hunt, ask a few folks who are usually around at that time in advance to join you.

At your level KI waters is a good rank whoring ground. You might also get good experience in RC and TGBG. If you still vanq LSW then there are several spots those hang out. Offhand those are probably the best places for you. You probably would do well at noth too.

[Steady Foot]

Unfortunately, prime time is just about the WORST possible time to do this, since many people (myself included) refuse to play PT because of the slowdown.

Yes I have noticed the lack of good players during PT. It is one of the reasons I have been considering dropping CL. Its laggy also. Being on the east coast its about all I my schedule will allow me to play.

Kiri I am not familiar with abbreviations RC and TGBG. Probably should be. [:)] KI waters I will have to look at some scrolls for the location.

Thanks for a good solid advice.[:)]

[Kiriel]

RC is Rocky Cavern. It's NE of N pass entrance. TGBG is Tree Giant Breeding Ground- you get there through the spirit wood. With enough atkus to pass 3rd you should be able to hit trees with some timing and a party. KI waters I think I've brought you before. It's 2 islands north of Puddleby and has a lot of baltoise and megamouths, both of which are good experience at your level and hittable with timing. Sometimes you can find them in MI waters too (NW corner island) but there aren't typically as many. You might find that LP (lily pond) is also probably still good experience for you, since I'm sure you still vanquish cave mahas and LSW.

We should schedule a 3rd circle vanqwhoring tour sometime when you can make it, I'd be happy to go with you guys :)

[Bob the Archer]

Originally posted by Steady Foot


I am not familiar with abbreviations RC and TGBG. Probably should be. [:)]

Does anyone know of a good, fairly comprehensive Clan Lord Glossery of terms and abbreviations? It would make a good adition to the web scrolls.

[Kiriel]

Well this isn't complete, but it's a good start- there's a section of acronyms in the Clan Lord FAQ (http://www.macinsearch.com/users/clanlordfaq/).

[Hidden]

That's a pretty good list of acronyms, but one might note that nobody uses DN or QR, and ending a toggle on an /unshare as suggested is going to get you ignored.

[Ruen]

Hmm... Now that folks are discussing defense, I find that I have a question in that department.

Are ranks in Detha and Balthus equivalent for defense? I've seen a lot of people post as if they are. They'll say 'you need 300 defense (detha + balthus) to brick this.' On the other hand, when people talk about training for defense, it seems that Detha is always the recommended trainer, never Balthus. So, my question is, if I had 100 ranks in balthus and 100 in detha and I didn't swing, is that really the same defense as having 200 ranks in detha and being swung out?

[Kiriel]

If I recall, from what I've been told Balthus is about 80% as effective as Detha. So they're not really equivalent but they're not so far apart as to not both be useful. Most of my defense is in balthus and sometimes it can be a problem because I will overswing and use it up, but I do like the flexibility of being able to use my defense for swings when the need arises. If you choose to go the balthus route it's probably still a good idea to get a decent detha base to protect you when you need to use your swings. I trained about 150 detha early on, then didn't train any more until very recently, but it was a good base for hunting combined with the balthus I got.

[Steady Foot]

I have a base of 160 Detha also. Seems to be good training.

Thanks Kiri, I can be in the lands most days from 9:30 to 11:00PM EST. Give or take a little.

I am going to try Lilly Pond first.... See how well I do... [:)]

[Michael]

Originally posted by Ruen
Hmm... Now that folks are discussing defense, I find that I have a question in that department.

Are ranks in Detha and Balthus equivalent for defense? I've seen a lot of people post as if they are. They'll say 'you need 300 defense (detha + balthus) to brick this.' On the other hand, when people talk about training for defense, it seems that Detha is always the recommended trainer, never Balthus. So, my question is, if I had 100 ranks in balthus and 100 in detha and I didn't swing, is that really the same defense as having 200 ranks in detha and being swung out?

Even though people do lump them toghter and say "defence", they are indeed different in how much they give.

I think that detha is at least 20% more effective than balthus, and prolly more. I have about 665 detha. and 400 balthus by message. I notice that I have a good bit more defence than people that have more balthus than detha.

If you want defence there really is no substitue for detha. I can brick some orga lyfes at night and some CC with the defence I have. And on places like KI, the person with the most defence is going to be the last one standing most of the time.

If you want some detha training, ask me when you see me and I will be happy to train you

[Steady Foot]

Micheal, is there an advantage training with you for Detha over training directly with Detha?

[Taryn]

Originally posted by Hidden
Minor correction about Spirit/Rodnus: it only increases the *health* drain of the person healing you, and only by about half as much as if they had trained the ammount of extra faustus it gives them.

Aha! This explains the discrepancy between Thuja's scroll and my observation. I have almost exactly enough spirit recovery training to backpack a 50-Rodnus fighter without losing any health or spirit. Employing the common wisdom that healers need a 3:1 Respia:Faustus ratio to do that, I divide my Respia by 3 then subtract my Faustus to get just about 40. (And yes I'm including Eva's contributions to Respia and Faustus, according to Thuja's scroll.) But Thuja's scroll said 50 Rodnus was worth 80 Faustus. I thought things might have changed since Thuja's determination, but what you're saying is that 50 Rodnus only hurts healers about 40 Faustus but helps fighters about 80 Faustus. Interesting!

By the way, I'm curious, how did you (or someone) determine that "50 rodnus gives exactly 80 faustus"?

Taryn

[Taryn]

Originally posted by Nunul
Does anyone have anything like hard numbers to give an idea of shield/detha value?

I did a test with a large vermine. With a shield, it bit me 54 times out of 220 attempts. Without a shield, it bit me 80 times out of 220 attempts. This is about a 12% difference.

A shield is probably most useful when facing creatures that occasionally hit you. For example, vermine bite me about 10% of the time without a shield, but wiff me for about 5% with a shield. So in a vermine swarm I'll take half as much damage with a shield.

Taryn.

p.s. With the small number of samples, 12% is far from exact. But a friendly fighter came along, and before I could say "Don't kill it!" Whack! there went my test.[:)]

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Taryn
Aha! This explains the discrepancy between Thuja's scroll and my observation.
Really? Because I don't see any discrepancy whatsoever. Keep in mind that you have some "inherent" faustus and respia and such that your calculations don't take into account, which is probably causing the numeric rift.

Thuja's scroll says, verbatim:
For every 100 Spirtus you train, any healer will heal you as if having an extra 80 Faustus, e.g. a newbie healer with no Faustus, will heal as fast as an 80 Faustus healer.

However, this extra speed does not come cheap, though it's still better than training Faustus directly:

Even though you may heal a lot faster, your spirit reserves will not drain any faster than usual.

The negative effect is that your health will drain as if you had trained the extra Faustus directly. For lower level healers this can make a huge difference.

By the way, I'm curious, how did you (or someone) determine that "50 rodnus gives exactly 80 faustus"?
100 Spirtus gives 80 Faustus-to-folks-healing-you. Rodnus is already maxed out by fighters with 100 Spirtus. Ergo, Rodnus gives 80 Faustus-to-folks-healing-you.

[Taryn]

Oops, I had forgotten that third line of Thuja's scroll.

But Hidden, you didn't really answer my last question. I already knew that 100 Spiritus gives 50 Rodnus. So how did you (or someone) determine that "100 Spiritus gives 80 Faustus-to-folks-healing-you"?

Taryn.

[Sunoril]

Originally posted by Kiriel
Congrats on passing 3rd Steady!

HH is Hatred's Hollow, the snell past Wisher's Gate in Snaggy. Basically it's pretty hard to get there without a full party of folks.

Heh. Oh, I dunno. With a little luck, a couple of decent fighters and a healer could get to Wisher's Gate - and if one of 'em is a full pathfinder, they can probably get to HH. It's what happens next that's the problem. [;)]

[Michael]

Originally posted by Steady Foot
Micheal, is there an advantage training with you for Detha over training directly with Detha?

I dont think so. If there is a bonus it is very small.

Michael

[Michael]

Originally posted by Taryn


I did a test with a large vermine. With a shield, it bit me 54 times out of 220 attempts. Without a shield, it bit me 80 times out of 220 attempts. This is about a 12% difference.

A shield is probably most useful when facing creatures that occasionally hit you. For example, vermine bite me about 10% of the time without a shield, but wiff me for about 5% with a shield. So in a vermine swarm I'll take half as much damage with a shield.

Taryn.

p.s. With the small number of samples, 12% is far from exact. But a friendly fighter came along, and before I could say "Don't kill it!" Whack! there went my test.[:)]

12% of what? Like all other weapons and items the game a shield adds a set number of ranks, not a %. If a shield added 12% more defence on top of what I already had it would be a HUGE difference. I would be bricking cold lyfes now instead of having bucks just starting to wiff.

Once you get a fair amount of defence I find that a shield is not worth using because of the regia loss. In fact it pisses me off that shields are more effective for healers than they are for fighters. Given your piss poor defence and the fact that most healers dont swing much, you get the upside without the down side.

I stopped using my shield a while ago, and have not missed it.

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Taryn
But Hidden, you didn't really answer my last question. I already knew that 100 Spiritus gives 50 Rodnus. So how did you (or someone) determine that "100 Spiritus gives 80 Faustus-to-folks-healing-you"?

Careful timed testing. A newbie with 80 faustus and nothing else heals someone with 100 histia and 0 spirtus as fast as a newbie with nothing heals someone with 100 histia and 100 spirtus. Or some similar test.

I didn't conduct the test, but in my experience the results are pretty near spot-on.

[Taryn]

Originally posted by Michael
12% of what?

I'm sorry, I assumed the reader would understand the 12% to be additive. That is, if something hits you 75%, 50%, or 25% of the time, with a shield it would hit you 63%, 38%, or 13% of the time. This is consistent with Michael saying that a shield adds a fixed amount of Detha ranks, except that (not being a fighter) I cannot measure how many Detha ranks this is.

And I entirely agree with Michael saying that for fighters with "a fair amount of defence" the shield is probably useless. For such fighters, most creatures will probably either only luck hit (which the shield won't change) or only luck miss (which again the shield won't change). I'd say the shield was only useful for creatures which otherwise would hit in the 10-25% range, which won't be many for such fighters.

Taryn.

[Brune]

Thuja's scroll says, verbatim:

Does anyone have the exact address to this information?

I went to her scrolls, but could not find her discussion of spiritus/rodnus.

Thanks!

Brune

[Brune]

Ooops. Spirtus, not Spiritus.

[Brune]

heh.

MASTER Spirtus, I mean.

I guess he doesn't have enough ranks to be LORD Spirtus?

[Lex]

Originally posted by Michael


I dont think so. If there is a bonus it is very small.

Michael

One time Urgelt said that he was training someone in I think Swengus and they got to "better pupil" in exactly 47 ranks with no other fighter training. After this rumors went around saying that exile training was a little better.

However, I started a newbie fighter and trained 10 ranks of Skea and then nothing but Swengus (from the fighter hall, not from an exile) and in exactly 47 ranks I hit the "better pupil" message.

Not sure what's going on, or if more messages don't fall on the exact rank # we think they do, but I haven't seen any good evidence that exile trainers give more.

Lex

[Lex]

Originally posted by Michael
12% of what? Like all other weapons and items the game a shield adds a set number of ranks, not a %. If a shield added 12% more defence on top of what I already had it would be a HUGE difference. I would be bricking cold lyfes now instead of having bucks just starting to wiff.

I think she meant 12% of HER defense, which must be pretty small (fen healer). For you it would probably be more like 1%.

Shields seem better for healers than fighters really. It's not too much trouble for a fighter to train the 5-10 extra Detha (just guessing) that they give.

Lex

[Bob the Archer]

Originally posted by Lex

However, I started a newbie fighter and trained 10 ranks of Skea and then nothing but Swengus (from the fighter hall, not from an exile) and in exactly 47 ranks I hit the "better pupil" message.


What Race was the fighter? Anything other than Human or Concealed will have a few ranks boni/penelty in some attributes.

[Lex]

Originally posted by Bob the Archer
What Race was the fighter? Anything other than Human or Concealed will have a few ranks boni/penelty in some attributes.

Human, but that doesn't matter. Any rank bonus from non-human races does not affect what fighter trainers say. You still need 10 ranks to get the "good to see you" message and some - like sylvan detha, zo darkus, or dwarven histia are in the 40-50 rank range of a bonus.

Lex