Initial Skea ?

[Archemar]

Hello folks,

Do we have initial Skea?
I reach hard to teach level yesterday, and only have counted 140 lessons, when I reach Toes level I only had counted 90 lessons.
I have lost some 'memories' from my earlier days in the lands, but I can't believed those account for 10 ranks.

On a side notes a friend of mine with less skea hunt Lilly Pond and skin Swamp Feral for 12,12 and 17c (average 14c), whereas my last skinning there yield an 15c average, with max of 30c and min 5c.

Still waiting for a first sasquatch (I was too bold on last EHC party and was fallen when Angry Mother went down ....).

Archemar

[Talin]

I dont think we have initial skea. I think its a question of probability. That is, as I, Talin have 0 skea, the probability of skinning even a rat is VERY low, but not zero. Actually, Talin skinned a 102c critter once (dont remember what it was, was on MI though).

One of my fighters has 50+ skea, and does ruin 1c furs at times. So, even if I have the recommended number of ranks which corresponds to 3-4x the value of the fur, the probability is not 100%.

As for the trainer messages, I noticed as well, that there can be a disagreement between what scribia says and what the trainer says. It never was 10 ranks with me, though. I wonder whether maybe dentir actually does give some skea ranks and vv. So far I have only heard that dentir helps with skinning et vv.

As for your example of your friend getting an average of 14 while you got one of 15, probability shows its pattern only with large amounts of samples. It is hard to show the pattern in skinning, as you know for sure only the positive results, not the negative ones. When a skin is ruined, you dont know who ruined it, except you hunt alone, of course. So, if you want to draw samples of skinning, you would have to hunt alone, and skin like 2'000 critters (with ruined and not-ruined furs). Take the average of that, and if you like other numbers like min. and max., and let your 0-skea-friend do the same. Then you can compare the results. Even for a kinda 'good enough' result, you would have to skin a couple hundred, ruined and not-ruined furs, and compare the results with the couple hundreds of your friend. Well, that's the theory of statistics, not very practical in everyday life (that is, without the huge time- and money- budgets of scientific institutions) :)

If you ever do that, I would be very interested in the results, in fact :)
Talin

[Hor]

Hi Arch,

as you might know I am a bit in Skea myself.
I also watched the trainer-messages closely, and for me
they were correct. I got the "on toes" message exactly with
rank Nr. 100. I have not reached the next level yet, but I
continue to try 8)

On the other hand I have zero Dentus and as Talin presumes,
there might be a little amount of Skea in Dentus... You have
some Dentus I think. Perhaps that could explain it...

Regards,

Hor

[Archemar]

Hello Talin,
Hello Hor,

Talin,
See some facts here (http://www.windsofdawn.org/forum/showthread.html?s=&threadid=1471&perpage=25&highlight=mentus%20dentir%20skea&pagenumber=2)
I went to noids since (the time you ask me not to fall), an never manage to get more than 13c, while I am good pupil now.
(I might but complete breakdown of these on some scrolls)

From my personal information, I gather that the higher the Skea/Dentir the more chance you have to skinn (which sounds logic). If you skinn more you are more likely to have high/low fur (?) (before recalling what AnnGM say in the news, remeber I said, "from what I gathered").

Effect of Mentus are more or less discuss in the thread mentioned above.

When I was 'paying off' I would skinn some maha runkee for 10c or 11c, now I could skinn mahe to get 1 (one) c!!!

Hor,
I don't trust too much scribia either, I sort my memories by myslef, I don't think I have lost so many of them, but I agree that if there is a disagrement between me and Skea, Skea is prolly right.
I am not sure Skea know Dentir but that will be hard to prove.

Archemar

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Archemar
From my personal information, I gather that the higher the Skea/Dentir the more chance you have to skinn (which sounds logic). If you skinn more you are more likely to have high/low fur (?) (before recalling what AnnGM say in the news, remeber I said, "from what I gathered").

This rumor is getting to be as prevalent as the "Bodrus being necessary to become a fighter" rumor.

Helpful GM's explanation (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=HelpfulGM-33D6CD.18511109052001%40news.apple.com) states quite clearly that Skea (and probably Dentir) is only used to see whether you are successful in skinning and does not have anything to do with how much the skin is worth. The more Skea you have, the higher chance you have at skinning a higher priced fur up to a point but the Skea doesn't affect the value of the fur.

Also remember there is luck which throws off the average by letting you skin a high fur which you are not normally able to skin as well as missing a low fur which you are normally able to skin. You have to make a record of your skins and any value which is way off the main cluster of numbers is probably due to luck.

[Brune]

So, to rephrase:

The species of critter determines the difficulty of skinning.

Skea improves your ability to skin more difficult critters.

By coincidence, the more difficult skins tend to be more valuable, but the value has nothing to do with the difficulty, and a 1c bolok is just as hard to skin as a 30c bolok.

Got it.

(Now if we could just figure out how to drive up the market value of vermine skins... ... ...)

[Luminary]

Originally posted by Brune
So, to rephrase:

The species of critter determines the difficulty of skinning....

Possibly. I would suspect that the species has a lesser influence than the actual value of the skin. For example, an island panther with a 5c fur might be easier to skin than a bolok cougar with a 5c fur. Each critter probably has a "base skinning difficulty" stat, and the island panther stat is probably lower than the bolok's stat.

However, the same island panther with a 7c fur might be more difficult to skin than the same 5c bolok.

Skea improves your ability to skin more difficult critters.

Indirectly. Skea is your "Skinning Skill" stat. Think of it as Atkus and the creature's skinning difficulty as the creatures defence. You can 'luck hit' a 150c AMS fur, or 'luck wiff' a 1c rat fur.

By coincidence, the more difficult skins tend to be more valuable,

Yes. More likely "By design" (OOC), or "Due to market demand" (IC), though.

but the value has nothing to do with the difficulty, and a 1c bolok is just as hard to skin as a 30c bolok.

Nope. The skin value has a large bearing on whether your skinning skill will "hit" or "miss." Just as a critter with 30 defence will be harder to hit than a critter with only 1 defence.

--Luminary

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Brune

(Now if we could just figure out how to drive up the market value of vermine skins... ... ...)

Yeah!

Of course, I'm sure its just a matter of educating the consumer. Sure, maha-gold is flashy, but vermine-brown is a much more... uh... sofisticated look. Plus its good camoflage. [:D]

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Brune
So, to rephrase:

The species of critter determines the difficulty of skinning.

No, the species of the critter determines the value of coins. Vermine are usually worth not a lot of coins but Lyfelidae are usually worth lots of coins.

Skea improves your ability to skin more difficult critters.

No, Skea improves your ability to skin fur that's worth more money, it's just that more difficult critters tend to have skin that's worth more.

By coincidence, the more difficult skins tend to be more valuable, but the value has nothing to do with the difficulty, and a 1c bolok is just as hard to skin as a 30c bolok.

If by difficulty you mean how much Skea you need, a 30c Bolok is more difficult than the 1c Bolok because you need more Skea to skin the 30c than the 1c on a regular basis (disregarding the occasional lucky skin).

[Taryn]

It is my hypothesis that the percentage chance of successfully skinning a fur is:

(5+Skea)/(10 * fur value)

with a 5% minimum and 95% maximum.

Alas, since I can't really solo hunt, I cannot test/refine my hypothesis. It's a guess based on my reading.

The implication is that those with zero Skea should skin 1c furs 50% of the time when solo hunting (rats and vermine), and skin 2c furs 25% of the time. Any volunteer testers?

Also, would fighters like to comment on another hypothesis that if a given creature is harder than average to kill for its species, that it's fur will be worth more than average for that species?

Taryn

[Archemar]

hello,

Originally posted by Taryn
(...)

(5+Skea)/(10 * fur value)

with a 5% minimum and 95% maximum.
(...)

By this count I should get 95% of anything beyond 15c which I didn't.
So that's put another question, do some individual in species have a 0c fur? (in which case the formulae above should turn to 0% ?)
or
formulae is wrong

(In any case, the more the skea, the more likely you are to get a skin, although there might be some kind of slaughter rule: I found it harder to skin in South Forest than Lilly Pond. Well, it might be just an impression)

Archemar

[Steady Foot]

Himitsu said "Helpful GM's explanation states quite clearly"
Reading this helps me to understand. I think it's pretty clear. Doesn't appear to be a "formula".

Lately I noticed the close to town furs are mangy, not many coins. Many times there are no coins. This changes periodically. I think the GM can set values to change that from time to time. Right now there are a lot of us hunting close to town. What if the GM is using the mangy furs to move us further away from town?

At the moment I get more coins from LVs and GVs. Artaks and panthers are real poor.

OOC I click two charaters one has 25 the other 50. I have noticed no difference around town.

[Himitsu]

The forumula I've heard is you can regularly skin up to 1/4 of how much Skea training you have.

There will always be the lucky skin in which you get up to a value you normally won't be able to skin and the unlucky skin in which you miss a value you should normally should be able to skin.

So I with my 50 Skea will be able to regularly skin up to 12c on a consistent basis no matter where I am and what gets skinned.

P.S. If you don't have a lot of skea and want to go hunting for some coins and don't mind me coming along, just give me a holler. I've mostly gotten over tagging so I'll only fall if I get swarmed.

[Connie_Crete]

These here be my ramblins about skinnin.

Tha more ya trains tha more ya kin skin consistantlike. I also hearded when HGM said that tha amount o skea ya gots dont affect tha amount o value tha skin be worth. It be a go/no-go situation he says. I isnt sure about that since cats dont run around with a max possible value tattooed on em befer I skins em.

I too hearded that 1/4 rule o thumb, but has noticed tha farther over that 1/4 I gits tha higher tha total coins I gits. When I were jest startin out as a skinner, and were gittn ta bout tha "good pupil" range, I would regularly keel ferals fer about 1 or 2c. Now that I has added ta that amount o trainins, I finds ferals be 3-5c consistantlike. I agrees that critters is born with tha pelts they gots. /ooc the maximum value is determined at the time of the spawn, although it really doesn't matter when the value is created ooc/. This observation has lead me ta believe that tha further beyond 4x tha coins tha fur be worth in trainins, tha more likely ya is ta maximize tha fur ya retrieve.

Also, inna group tha possibilities o skinnin are by the pepples what hit the critter and what is shared with tha hitters. This means ifn I dont tag tha critter, I aint gonna skin it unless'n sumbody shares me what does hit it.

I agrees with tha published explanation that o tha pool o pepples possible to skin, they be ordered at random and then they gots ta all fail their attempt at skinnin befer tha fur be ruint. I also believes that all critters has a finite range tha pelts they be born with kin be worth. I has never had a regular rat be more than 1c. I has had alla maha's also be 1c, but they kin git a fair bit higher as well. A beginnin skinner n me is gonna be about 50/50 fer vermine furs, but fer Cave Mahas Ima prolly gonna outstrip him fer tha high end ones. Though ifn there were a rash o mangy 1c CMR's I suspects we'd be back at 50/50.

I attribute varyin values o furs over tha zodiacs ta a couple o things, first tha dreaded maha-mange which kin cross species and islands and second fate. /ooc I think that there is a finite number of coins in the world and when too many are taken out of the world through skinning and not put back through buying uli liquour for Drablak, fur pelts get affected ooc/

When I were first huntin, befer coins floated inta yer pocket, there be a couple o 0 skinned critters. I didn't mind ruinin them furs, lemme tell ya.

And finally, Erekose n me has both noticed we pulls teeth. I aint got no dentir trainin, but will git teeth more often than jest pure luck times.

BEER!
Connie

[Drablak]

Ok here is what *I* don't understand about skinning: it's been said that everyone has a chance to skin a fur and all that *before* the skin is ruined. Then why is there a person in west puddleby that can turn skinning on/off. In the beginning I thought that I could ruin a skin if I happened to be (randomly) chosen to try to skin it before others (presumably more skilled in skinning) were chosen. So when hunting in a party I thought I had to talk to him (can't remember his name) before going on hunts.

Who'd want to turn skinning off if everyone gets a chance before it's ruined?

[Lorikeet]

RPers who don't want to harm creatures I guess.

[Himitsu]

As Joe Williams of Delta Tao himself said:

The skinning system is such that additional skinners always improve the party's chances of getting a skin, and never make these chances worse.

The only reason to use the no-skinning guy is if you're a wacko pacifist who refuses to imagine his knife in a helpless corpse.

[Drablak]

Ok, valid reason. But if that's the only reason then I think this guy should be someplace else, preferably far from Puddleby like in the north plains so that people who really don't want to skin have to work a little bit to reach him. Make it a quest for them.

[Hidden]

He's irrelevant now anyway, since skinning is one of the things you can set in /options.

[Ruen]

On a sort of side note, I recently more than doubled my skinning training (from 10 lessons to a massive 23). I noticed that I seemed to be getting a lot more furs, but the thing that really struck me was that I was learning from skinning a whole lot more. Before I'd maybe learn from skinning once a day, and now with the increased skea I seem to be learning from skinning several times an hour.