Honor & Glory's standards

[Ruen]

I was reading Himitsu's journal today, and it pointed me at a discussion where people were talking about mystics again. I didn't follow all of it, but a one point a certain mystic seemed to imply that the standard that Honor and Glory use for advancement are somewhat arbitrary.

Aside from getting me irritated for various reasons, this got me thinking about those very standards. I don't think they are arbitrary at all, and I'm interested in knowing what other people think of them.

The way I see it, the second circle fighter test is not arbitrary at all. The test contains two ferals, which are the most dangerous creatures to a hunting group that you're liable to find near town. I think they are the most dangerous to a group because while they are not tougher than bolok cougars, their behavior makes them harder to deal with. If you're in a group a fighter might fall to a bolok while the others take it down, but a feral might take your healer down if you can't deal with it, and that's a surer way of ending a hunt fast. Thus it seems to me there is a point to the second circle fighter test, and that point is "be able to protect your healers from the local wildlife."

I haven't taken the third circle fighter test yet, but I know what critters are in it. It seems to me that a possible point of that test might be "be able to fight in orga territory". Not a bad thing to test for given that we're in competition with the orga for territory. I don't remember exactly what's in the higher level tests I'm sure there's reason to believe they are arbitrary either.

I know people complain about the healer tests, but most of their issues seem to be centered around things like not rewarding horus healers without requiring training that way. Mostly healers complain about not having more tests, so I can't think they're that dissatified with the tests they have. From what I know the healer tests seem to ask the questions: "Can you perform a rescue on your own near town," "Can you perform a rescue on your own far away from town (in the passes)," and "Can you cope when the brick has gone down and four mean cats think you'd make a tasty morsel?"

Thoughts?

[Moon Kitty]

Originally posted by Ruen
I know people complain about the healer tests, but most of their issues seem to be centered around things like not rewarding horus healers without requiring training that way. Mostly healers complain about not having more tests, so I can't think they're that dissatified with the tests they have. From what I know the healer tests seem to ask the questions: "Can you perform a rescue on your own near town," "Can you perform a rescue on your own far away from town (in the passes)," and "Can you cope when the brick has gone down and four mean cats think you'd make a tasty morsel?"

The problem I have with the healer tests is that they don't seem to be very realistic. If I'm healing a fallen and there are Bolok Cougars on my tail, I don't let them all gang up on me but cad from as far away as I can and run around the fallen. That way I take as little damage as possible because my self-heal isn't as good as others although I have 200 Higgrus so I can take a good number of hits before falling. The healer tests doesn't let you use a Caduceus and it's difficult to trap the beasts unlike what happens where there are trees or buildings or walls. Plus, they don't take into account Horus training which is very important for raising fallens.

However, I am not looking forward to more tests until there is something valuable in 5th and 6th circle such as sub-classes, a new ability, or a free lilaberry/orgaberry. I've heard of some people talking about the ability to make a custom Eva or healing 2 or more people at once based on your Faustus.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Ruen
Aside from getting me irritated for various reasons, this got me thinking about those very standards. I don't think they are arbitrary at all, and I'm interested in knowing what other people think of them.I haven't read the discussion you refer to so I can't comment on it specifically, but I can maybe offer a guess as to what was meant by that comment.
Although you're right that the tests (fighters' and healers') check for basic skills, there are those fighters and healers that feel that they do not allow for other 'paths' of training. The healer tests, for example, favor higgrus and faustus, while the fighter tests favor atkus (I think). A healer with a different career path, horus is one example, isn't capable of passing circle tests as fast as others. Lorikeet passed 4th with a LOT more ranks than most other healers because she specializes in Horus. Some fighters don't want to get as much atkus as is required for some tests and so are 'penalised'.

I think that's what was most likely meant by the comment that tests are arbitrary: arbitrary in the sense that they are build to select one career path for a chosen profession. As I said, I did not read the refered discussion, but I have heard many fighters and healers discuss the fact that they felt the tests weren't appropriate for everyone as they are now. YMMV.

D.

[Moon Kitty]

Originally posted by Drablak
Although you're right that the tests (fighters' and healers') check for basic skills, there are those fighters and healers that feel that they do not allow for other 'paths' of training. The healer tests, for example, favor higgrus and faustus, while the fighter tests favor atkus (I think). A healer with a different career path, horus is one example, isn't capable of passing circle tests as fast as others. Lorikeet passed 4th with a LOT more ranks than most other healers because she specializes in Horus. Some fighters don't want to get as much atkus as is required for some tests and so are 'penalised'.

While I agree that the Healer's Tests don't take into account Horus and Proximus, you don't have to focus on Higgrus and Faustus to pass. If you have a really good self-heal by having a high Respia:Faustus ratio and/or Spirtus and/or Awaria you can heal the damage you get from the test critters. I think that's how Lorikeet passed.

Or you can get lots of Higgrus and outlast the test critters. Maybe Mephisto passed this way since he has a ledger with Higgrus.

In fact, getting too much Faustus will hurt rather than help since if you don't have enough Respia you'll run out of Spirit and you will run too low on health. That's why I think the Faustus ledger holders are still in third-circle although I'm not sure.

So while I'd like future tests to take Horus and Proximus into account, I don't think the healer tests produce healers who are all the same.

I passed into fourth by getting a little of each and am a generalist healer.

[Konoko]

Drablak said:
Some fighters don't want to get as much atkus as is required for some tests and so are 'penalised'.

As you are kind of hinting at, for fighters anyways, passing the tests isn't really a big deal. In my opinion anyways.

Healers get more toys after the various tests. IMO there isn't much gained after passing the third circle tests and above for fighters. There are all those diff-coloured belts though! :)

Besides the white belt, 3rd circle allows for specialiation in 3 different weapons based on your style of fighting. (BTW - I'm only like 1700 short of getting the goss and having all 3 :)
There are also the 2 grotto trainers for third circle. I don't know if there's anything really special about these 2 trainers (perhaps only as a way to make some modifications to your style since they don't give you anything specifically new).

4th circle allows you to get a black belt and the Rodnus grotto trainer. I guess the Rodnus trainer is a big deal to certain types of fighters. I think there's a max on this trainer of 50 (is that right or am I making this up?)

Now besides the blue and red belts in 5th and 6th (i'm not sure which is which), is there anything else one gets after passing these tests? After passing 4th and getting access to Rodnus, what else is there to look forward to?
Any motivation to go for those other tests?

Konoko

[Callia]

Originally posted by Ruen
I was reading Himitsu's journal today, and it pointed me at a discussion where people were talking about mystics again. I didn't follow all of it, but a one point a certain mystic seemed to imply that the standard that Honor and Glory use for advancement are somewhat arbitrary.


No Ruen, I <b>did not</b> imply or state that Honor or Glory's standards were arbitrary.

What I said was that there were reasons why things worked as they did.

<b>OOC</B>Specifically I said that there were design elements of the Mystic Profession that impacted how things worked.<b>End OOC</b>

Hidden then either misunderstood, or deliberately misrepresented what I said in order to push his own agenda, and claimed that the elements I referred to were arbitrary. Since what I was referring to was not the least bit arbitrary, I countered by asking him how he thought the standards to which I referred were any more or less arbitrary than those of Honor or Glory.


If you do not understand something I say, I would be more than happy to try to explain it. However, I will thank you in the future to refrain from mis-quoting me, quoting me out of context, or misrepresenting something I said.


Callia

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Konoko
Now besides the blue and red belts in 5th and 6th (i'm not sure which is which), is there anything else one gets after passing these tests? After passing 4th and getting access to Rodnus, what else is there to look forward to?
Any motivation to go for those other tests?

As a dedicated Usenet lurker, I can report on what I remember.

There was a talk about having a balanced Atkus and Darkus trainers who would train you in Atkus or Darkus and have it balanced with enough Balthus so that you wouldn't lose any swings. Everyone seemed to really like the idea and Helpful GM said that it would be a good reward for passing into either 3rd or 4th circle. Unfortunately, even though it would be easy to implement, they haven't been put in as far as I know.

Another possible addition would be the availability of the Oak Basher and Main Gauche for 5th and 6th circle fighters. All I know about these items is that the Oak Basher gives a large amount of Darkus (not sure what it does to your balance) and the Main Gauche adds both defense and Atkus (again, not sure how that affects your balance). These weapons are extremely rare and powerful and being able to purchases them would be a great bonus for getting into 5th and 6th circles would be a really great reward. Ann GM said that it was being talked about so it might happen.

I can't recall anything else being talked about. I think it'd be great if these were implemented.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Moon Kitty
While I agree that the Healer's Tests don't take into account Horus and Proximus, you don't have to focus on Higgrus and Faustus to pass.I didn't say that. BTW I was quoting Hidden who said the healer test "favor higgrus and faustus", and I am not a healer, so if you're not happy just talk to him.
So while I'd like future tests to take Horus and Proximus into account, I don't think the healer tests produce healers who are all the same.I didn't say it produced healers who are all the same, I said it favored a certain type of healer.

I passed into fourth by getting a little of each and am a generalist healer.And Lorikeet passed 4th and is a Horus healer. I know.

[Moon Kitty]

Originally posted by Drablak
I didn't say that. BTW I was quoting Hidden who said the healer test "favor higgrus and faustus", and I am not a healer, so if you're not happy just talk to him.

How can you be quoting Hidden when he hasn't even posted here and when you were the one who said (and not quoted) "favor higgrus and faustus"?

Also, I don't understand your comment about talking to Hidden if I'm unhappy. Unhappy about what?

I didn't say it produced healers who are all the same, I said it favored a certain type of healer.

Sure, it favors the type of healer who can withstand a certain amount of damage over a period of time that's dependent on how fast the healer can heal.

And Lorikeet passed 4th and is a Horus healer. I know.

I don't know how that comment follows what I said. I just wanted to say that it's possible for healers to pass the tests in different ways (aside from Horus and Proximus). I'm a faster healer with 100 ranks in Proximus but Lorikeet has a much better self-heal and, of course, the 1000+ ranks in Horus.

[Konoko]

Posted by Himi:
These weapons are extremely rare and powerful and being able to purchases them would be a great bonus for getting into 5th and 6th circles would be a really great reward. Ann GM said that it was being talked about so it might happen.
Thanks for the info Himi! The weapons would be a nice feature. The special atkus and darkus trainers would be useful too! I hate having to keep balance my regia balanced when I get atkus/darkus.


If the weapons happened, I would think these would probably just be limited to the 5th/6th circlers then, eh?
Like a 4th circler (or healer, mystic, etc) would not be able to use an oak basher or something then?

I guess this would be unfair to those who have it now though. But if anyone could use it (assuming they have enough balthus or whatever), then it's not reaaly special or limited to 5th and 6th circlers. Perhaps there could be a special trainer with a capped amount of training for those specific weapons?


Anyone else hear anything or have other comments?

Konoko

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Konoko

Thanks for the info Himi! The weapons would be a nice feature. The special atkus and darkus trainers would be useful too! I hate having to keep balance my regia balanced when I get atkus/darkus.

I believe these trainers would just balance the Atkus/Darkus with Balthus and not Regia. If you want to maintain your regeneration time, you'll have to train Regia yourself.

Of course I could be completely wrong and I think it'd be really great if the balance included both Balthus and Regia and either Atkus or Darkus in one handy trainer.

Right now all I do is train until the trainers' message changes which is not at all efficient.

If the weapons happened, I would think these would probably just be limited to the 5th/6th circlers then, eh?
Like a 4th circler (or healer, mystic, etc) would not be able to use an oak basher or something then?

I found the thread on Google and those who responded liked the idea of the Oak Basher being only useable by 5th circle fighters and the Main Gauche only useable by 6th circle fighters. Ann said "Some of them will likely be more publicly available before too long." on November 25, 2002.

I guess this would be unfair to those who have it now though. But if anyone could use it (assuming they have enough balthus or whatever), then it's not reaaly special or limited to 5th and 6th circlers. Perhaps there could be a special trainer with a capped amount of training for those specific weapons?

People like Sutai, who aren't fighters and who have one or both would be affected greatly but they are pretty rare and I'm sure they'd be able to sell them to someone.

Those weapons shouldn't require any training to use and I'd rather have them reserved for fighters.

[Jeanne]

That previous message was from me.

Why was I logged out? Is there some sort of button to push somewhere that will prevent this from happening?

[Kiriel]

You might want to check the options in the user control panel to make sure you have it set to keep a cookie for you. It's also possible your browser is set to expire cookies on quit. I've noticed this happens to a lot of folks but it never happens to me so I haven't really looked into it.

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Callia
Hidden then either misunderstood, or deliberately misrepresented what I said in order to push his own agenda,

:rolleyes: Agenda, eh? And what agenda might that be? If I were actually trying to bring down the mystic guild or anything sinister like that, wouldn't it be more productive to start spilling secrets left and right, or perhaps haul out Manticore and make everyone who wanted into a JM? Give me a little more credit than that.

and claimed that the elements I referred to were arbitrary. Since what I was referring to was not the least bit arbitrary, I countered by asking him how he thought the standards to which I referred were any more or less arbitrary than those of Honor or Glory.

Actually, now that I think about it further and have a better idea what those elements are... you're right. They're not arbitrary. They're just selfish, greedy, and a few other things which I, in all my linguistic indecency, can't list here. I also maintain there are further, quite arbitrary, elements to the promotion process, which perhaps you were not specifically referring to in that case, but are in fact there.

No, I don't care to elaborate. If you're the smart mystic you think you are, you'll figure it out. Thinking is good for you.

Edit:
An additional thought -- You know, in considerance of all the rank-whore bashing folks like Callia do... this whole discussion is REALLY, REALLY ironic.

[Callia]

Originally posted by Hidden
.....which perhaps you were not specifically referring to in that case......

Ahh.. excellent, thank you dear.

Callia

[Hidden]

For a class designed around information and knowledge, Mystics sure are a dense bunch, eh?

What you, and many other Mystics, still fail to see, Callia, is that the designed elements are, in fact, the very definition of arbitrary. The Mystic Guild was designed to be run by the players. As far as I know, aside from some -- by the Mystics' own admission minor -- obstacles to overcome and gauntlets to be run, that was the entirety of the design.

If the Guild had decided to devote itself to the public sharing and benefit of all it's knowledge, the design would STILL have been considered a great success. If the Guild had never promoted anyone besides the initial 3 Mystics, letting all others languish at the Journeyman and Apprentice levels, it would have been considered a great success. If the Guild had become a prostitution agency, selling apprentices for money... well, aside from the horror and vomiting reactions that mental picture probably conjured up for many readers, it STILL would have been considered a success. Furthermore, if a group of Rogue mystics overthrew the guild tomorrow into total anarchy, promoting everyone to the top level? Still a success.

What you just don't seem to grasp is that the "design elements" you refer to are just thoughts in the heads of the first mystics, that were necessarily shared by all the people they promoted as a form of breeding, or artificial selection. There is no "Mystic white paper" in Joe's computer that says the current system is exactly how it has to be.

Feel free to try to prove me wrong. Just remember: I have the upper hand in this discussion. I know things that you can't prove either way, because by doing so, you would forfeit everything you've worked for. You cannot, effectively, discern what I do and do not know, because to do so, you would necessarily have to fill in all the blanks in my knowledge.

...Check...(mate?)

[Callia]

Originally posted by Hidden
What you, and many other Mystics, still fail to see, Callia, is that the designed elements are, in fact, the very definition of arbitrary. The Mystic Guild was designed to be run by the players.

"Designed" being the key word. You keep trying to make this a conversation about what the Council does (or does not) do. All <b>I</b> was talking about were the choices that the game designers made when they sat down to create the class. The choices the game designers made about what they wanted for the mystic class are neither more, or less arbitrary than those they made for the fighter and healer classes. They're <b>all</b> equally arbitrary, it's a game after all.


Originally posted by Hidden
If the Guild had decided to devote itself to.....

Feel free to speculate all you like about how much influence the game designers had on the existing iteration, and how much it may or may not have varied from the original conception. My opinion is that they had a fairly substantial impact, and continue to have an impact on the implementation. Obviously your opinion differs.


Originally posted by Hidden
There is no "Mystic white paper" in Joe's computer that says the current system is exactly how it has to be.

Nor did I say there was. All I did was to respond to Jazz to the effect that: There are designed elements to the (mystic) class which slow the speed of advancements. Then you tried to twist the conversation into some sort of discussion about how the Council opperates. Which is fine, but had (and still has) nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Originally posted by Hidden
Feel free to try to prove me wrong. Just remember: I have the upper hand in this discussion.

Oh very good! "I hosey I win!" A reverse straw man argument... very nice, excellent debating tactic, surely I'll crumble now.


Callia


<b>Special Note:</b><small>
The above was part of an OOC discussion, feel free to participate, but please do <b>not</b> assume I have offered any IC opinions, and please to not attempt to extrapolate any IC opinions I might or might not have from the above. If you wish to know what my IC opinions are, please ask. </small>

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Callia


No Ruen, I <b>did not</b> imply or state that Honor or Glory's standards were arbitrary.


Whatever. Note that I said "seemed to imply". Note that you did make comparisons between mystic promotions and fighter promotions. You also implied that mystic promotions had little to do with the mystics actual useful skills (boosting, locating, scanning for critters). Given that, its not a very good comparison to be making.

It may be a shock to you, but I no longer care how mystics are promoted. I thought I was starting a discussion about the reasoning behind how fighters and healers are promoted.



If you do not understand something I say, I would be more than happy to try to explain it. However, I will thank you in the future to refrain from mis-quoting me, quoting me out of context, or misrepresenting something I said.

I am not interested in having you explain anything to me since you clearly view non-mystics as lesser beings. For what its worth, I didn't set out to mis-quote you. If you don't want to risk being accidentally misquoted, I suggest that you talk/write less.

[Ruen]

Previous post from me. Oops. I must stop eating cookies

[Callia]

Originally posted by Ruen
Note that you did make comparisons between mystic promotions and fighter promotions.

No, I said the design elements were neither more, nor less arbitrary. I was not offering any comparison of either process.


Originally posted by Ruen
You also implied that mystic promotions had little to do with the mystics actual useful skills (boosting, locating, scanning for critters).

No, that was a statement. Mystic promotions have very little (but not nothing) to do with ranks trained.


Originally posted by Ruen
Given that, its not a very good comparison to be making.

I suggest that your "given" is incorrect, see above.


Originally posted by Ruen
It may be a shock to you, but I no longer care how mystics are promoted. I thought I was starting a discussion about the reasoning behind how fighters and healers are promoted.

If this was in fact the case, then I suggest that making the introduction to your discussion (either intentionally or accidentally) a malicious aspersion directed at me was perhaps not the best opening tactic.


Originally posted by Ruen
I am not interested in having you explain anything to me since you clearly view non-mystics as lesser beings.

As you wish. You are incorrect however, I do not view non-mystics as lesser beings. I make every effort to treat those who treat me with respect in kind. Should I transgress, I apologize. Note that I also treat those who disrespect me in kind as well.

Should you change your mind, I'm still happy to discuss anything you'd like.


Originally posted by Ruen
For what its worth, I didn't set out to mis-quote you.

I accept your apology.

Originally posted by Ruen
If you don't want to risk being accidentally misquoted, I suggest that you talk/write less.

Your displeasure that I should have an opinion, and that I should defend that opinion is duly noted.


Callia

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Moon Kitty
How can you be quoting Hidden when he hasn't even posted here and when you were the one who said (and not quoted) "favor higgrus and faustus"?Very simple, Hidden participates in many forums, and healer tests are discussed in many forums. You were able to find things about main gauche with google, try healer test and you'll see the reference there.

Also, I don't understand your comment about talking to Hidden if I'm unhappy. Unhappy about what?You basically said I was wrong to say that the healer test favored faustus and higgrus and it seemed to bother you that I said that, so: unhappy that someone could think the healer test favors higgrus and faustus.

[Bob the Archer]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The knife that I hold in my right hand is a Dagger . It has a small atkus bonus, and is useful for group hunts where its low Darkus allows many skilled fighters to tag a beastie.

The knife that I hold in my left hand is a rare item indeed- the Main Gauche . It has Atkus and Darkus boni as well as a Dethra bonus. Its primary us lies in the fact that a user may hold a chain in his right hand while attacking with the Gauche. It is extreemly rare, though it is rumored to be likely to resurface soon.

And finally, this last knife. All too common, unfortunatly, it is a slender, sharp blade, honed by sarcasm and polished by spite. Some exiles carry several, displaying them proudly as badges of honor. It is most surly a sign of having expressed an opinion. This knife has no name, and is carried in neither the left or right hands, but rather in the back. Interestingly enough, it can not be picked up or equiped by an exile, but must be placed in its proper position by another exile.

[Moon Kitty]

Originally posted by Drablak
Very simple, Hidden participates in many forums, and healer tests are discussed in many forums. You were able to find things about main gauche with google, try healer test and you'll see the reference there.

It's true that Hidden is a healer and participates in this forum and others but he didn't say anything about the healer tests in this forum so you couldn't have quoted him when you said you did. Plus, you only said you quoted him after I quoted it and responded to it. Next time you quote someone you should do so initially so there's no confusion.

Plus, I didn't search google for informtion about the Main Gauche, it was Jeanne.

You basically said I was wrong to say that the healer test favored faustus and higgrus and it seemed to bother you that I said that, so: unhappy that someone could think the healer test favors higgrus and faustus.

I'm not unhappy that someone thinks the healer tests favors Higgrus and Faustus. I think it's wrong but I'm not unhappy thinking so.

While there is an optimal way of passing the tests, I think it'd be Higgrus and Respia.

[Ruen]

So, there are these tests. There are some issues that people have with the tests that are well known. Those issues aside, what were Honor and Glory (or whoever instituted the tests) thinking when they decided which critters to put in the tests?

It could be argued that they just picked weak critters for the early tests and stronger critters for the later tests, but what I was trying to get at was that I think there is more to it than that. I was wondering what other people thought about the critters chosen for the tests other than just relative strength.

[Lorikeet]

Thought I'd add a few cents on the issue of healer tests--after all, I probably tried them more than most [:D] . My problem with passing the fourth circle test was dying before poor Glory got healed. Although I've always had a great Respia/Faustus ratio, part of the reason was because my Faustus was so low. I think it was equivalent to about 78 when I passed. I could never stand there long enough to heal Glory. Since Faustus and I are not (and haven't been for a long time) on speaking terms, and I wanted to start using a merc to burst, I went to Mephisto and added some of his trainings until I hit the 200 message. That is when I passed the test.

[Brune]

Classic Hidden. Speaks for itself:
Feel free to try to prove me wrong. Just remember: I have the upper hand in this discussion. I know things that you can't prove either way

But more to the point, I think Ruen's attempt to understand the context of each circle test is interesting, i.e. dealing with critters from areas that an advancing exile is growing into.
Ruen wrote:
It could be argued that they just picked weak critters for the early tests and stronger critters for the later tests, but what I was trying to get at was that I think there is more to it than that. I was wondering what other people thought about the critters chosen for the tests other than just relative strength.

Speaking solely as a healer, my opinion (for the healer tests) is more along the "arbitrary critter selection" point of view, rather than the "learn to deal with specific critters" design.

Two observations suggest this:

First, the healer tests cripple basic healing strategies like /pulling, /pushing, chaining, and range healing. Therefore the tests are only moderate indicators of overall skill.

Second, the Greymyr in the test does not throw stones. If the test were designed to teach healers about the monsters, the inability of the test critter to throw rocks is quite the blunder.

I wonder what it would have been like if the fighter and healer tests used the SAME critters. I think that would point more to a "design" rather than "arbitrary" context for tests.

Brune

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Brune
Classic Hidden. Speaks for itself:

Really? Because I was just parroting what the Guild's been saying for YEARS. "I know something you don't know, you're wrong, we're right, nyah-nyah." Gets old real quick, don't it?

Originally posted by Drablak
Hidden participates in many forums, and healer tests are discussed in many forums.

Classic Drablak. Speaks for itself, really, but I've never been one to stay quiet when further merryment could be made. You do realize, of course, that I'm not the only healer who holds that opinion by a longshot. In fact, pretty much every healer agrees that the fastest route to pass the tests is Faustus and Higgrus, very closely followed by Eva (who wastes some training on Horus and Awaria). But hey, anything to attack Hidden, right? You could at least show me some respect and try a LITTLE harder.

Originally posted by Bob the Archer
Its primary us lies in the fact that a user may hold a chain in his right hand while attacking with the Gauche.

Thus proving that you've never used a main gauche. Neeeext!

Originally posted by <strike>flaming bitch</strike> Callia
The choices the game designers made about what they wanted for the mystic class are neither more, or less arbitrary than those they made for the fighter and healer classes.

The decisions themselves may not be arbitrary (very few are), but the effects, and desired effects certainly are, except for a very vague shell.

There are designed elements to the (mystic) class which slow the speed of advancements.

I call bullshit. There are designed elements to the (mystic) class which make the players THINK that advancements should be slow, but if they were smarter, perhaps they would think of a way around it. No, wait, originall thinking is cheating. The only true way to play the game is to lie down and die every time an obstacle pops up.

Oh very good! "I hosey I win!" A reverse straw man argument... very nice, excellent debating tactic, surely I'll crumble now.

As I said -- feel free to prove me wrong. I'm confident that you won't, though. I am, so to speak, calling your bluff, feel free to call mine if you want to.

[Drablak]

Originally posted by Hidden
Classic Drablak. Speaks for itself, really, but I've never been one to stay quiet when further merryment could be made. You do realize, of course, that I'm not the only healer who holds that opinion by a longshot. In fact, pretty much every healer agrees that the fastest route to pass the tests is Faustus and Higgrus, very closely followed by Eva (who wastes some training on Horus and Awaria). But hey, anything to attack Hidden, right? You could at least show me some respect and try a LITTLE harder. Really Hidden, you need to check your compulsory reflexes to lash at anyone. I was actually agreeing with you if you didn't realise that. I said the same thing you said elsewhere, and when Moonkitty said I was wrong I mentionned you - to support my claim - and you bitch at me for no reason. The one you need to explain that "[you're] not the only healer who holds that opinion by a longshot" is actually Moonkitty. Really Hidden, you could at least show some respect, or and try a LITTLE harder to read the actual post before bitching.

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Drablak
Really Hidden, you need to check your compulsory reflexes to lash at anyone. I was actually agreeing with you if you didn't realise that. I said the same thing you said elsewhere, and when Moonkitty said I was wrong I mentionned you - to support my claim - and you bitch at me for no reason.

My apologies. But, given the nature of the way the odds are stacked in this discussion, can you blame me for being a bit defensive?

The one you need to explain that "[you're] not the only healer who holds that opinion by a longshot" is actually Moonkitty.

Why? You're the one who mentioned me.

[Bob the Archer]

Originally posted by Ruen
what were Honor and Glory (or whoever instituted the tests) thinking when they decided which critters to put in the tests?

It could be argued that they just picked weak critters for the early tests and stronger critters for the later tests, but what I was trying to get at was that I think there is more to it than that. I was wondering what other people thought about the critters chosen for the tests other than just relative strength.

Lets make a list!
For each beastie, how would you rate its:

Atkus
Darkus
Troilus
Histia
Swengus
Agressiveness (GV=tenatious, Tor=lethargic, rat=intermittent)

[Rincewind]

Originally posted by Brune


Two observations suggest this:

First, the healer tests cripple basic healing strategies like /pulling, /pushing, chaining, and range healing. Therefore the tests are only moderate indicators of overall skill.



Apologies for the history lesson, but it explains my point of view....

In the beginning there were only 2 circles for each of fighter/healer (and no mystics at all.) The first and 2nd circle tests have not changed AT ALL since this time as far as i can remember ( with the possible exception of a few flowerpots/logwalls - dont recall if they were always there.) . As chains and cads didnt exist, no facility to allow using them was needed. Likewise there was no horus or degrees of deadness, so also wasnt tested, and as healing didnt hurt the healer, self-heal was a rather less important issue. (I think push/pull did exist but i cant see that being able to move Glory in this way would affect the outcome greatly myself.)

Later on, 3rd and 4th circle tests appeared for both classes, and these tests were EXACTLY THE SAME format, but with tougher critters. Later still the savannah appeared and the 2 regular mahas in 4th healer test changed to sav mahas. Much more recently, the 5th and 6th circle fighter tests appeared, and amazingly, guess what...were still the same orginal format.

Anyway, the point im trying to make, is that the test format was designed a very long time ago, and although much has changed since, it remains the same today. They are really designed for healers of ages past, not those of today ( fighters havent changed as much over the years, at least till the recent special weapons came in). These newer changes however have never been brought into the tests, as it would require a major overhaul of the whole test design...much easier to just change the critters i'd imagine, and stick to an already working formula. Also, now that so many people have passed the existing tests, one can only begin to think of the likely outcry if it suddenly all got swapped about. [:D]


As to the critter choice, i think they were mainly chosen as typical examples of something a noticably better healer/fighter could cope with, but weaker characters couldnt. I recall a discussion in the fairgrounds with AnnGM (i think it was) before 5/6th came in, about what critters would be suitable, and various tests to see who could solo what, and discussions about which exiles "should be 5th/6th". As far as im aware there wasnt ever any real intent to match the critter choice to where each level of exile usually hunted, or to things they'd likely come across...and anyway, the world layout/critter distributions have also changed alot, as has the variety of critters in existence. They are simply chosen to best separate the goats from the sheep, or whatever the expression is...

Anyway, enough rambling from me,
Rincewind

PS : Anyone else think 15 small vermine and a spriggin would be perfect for 5th healer test ? [:D]

Ok!OK!Silly joke, not to be taken seriously, though it would be fun to watch!

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Rincewind
PS : Anyone else think 15 small vermine and a spriggin would be perfect for 5th healer test ? [:D]

*yawn* Any 4th circle healer could pass that without breaking a sweat. I think the best 5th circle test would be an LDV and 2 DV. 6th could be a trio of liches (too easy to block?) or even better, a fallen being chewed rapidly plus a few easily dodgeable things like an Angry Mother Sasquatch and her kid, so running too much would cause negative progress.

[Talin]

I must admit that I think the tests are not soooo bad. Feel free to disagree, I guess I am a bit in the minority here :)

My thoughts are:

ANY test in ANY situation has major drawbacks compared to the real situation. And ANY test in ANY situation is more or less arbitrary (jeez, I remember what I learned by heart for my degree, and what I actually need in my professional life OOC - compared to that CL-tests are heaven!) There is only one 'test' to show up true skills, and that is the situation itself :) In CL, that would be actual hunts.

The healer tests test one thing, that is to raise a fallen in a reasonable time while critters are around, and surviving the process (sic :) ). That is an ability that the moonstone healer has to have just as the cadder and horus healer. Actually, I cannot think right now of another ability, ALL healer types have to have.

The question to me is, do I say 'bah, they are only moderate indicators' or do I say 'weee, they are even quite moderate' :)

Now, of course I full-heartedly agree that we need specialized tests for the different healers. It is as if the only test to pass as a MD is anatomy. Sure, MDs, dentists and vets need SOME anatomy too. But they DO need to know a couple other things, as well :) I am pretty glad those other thingies are tested in RL docs ;)

I find the thought of Ruen to compare the critters to the surroundings the healer might get to very intriguing. Actually, I like it alot :) Whether that was the intent of the designers, I really dont care much (thanks to Rincewind for the fine history lesson, though :) ).

Originally posted by Brune

Speaking solely as a healer, my opinion (for the healer tests) is more along the "arbitrary critter selection" point of view, rather than the "learn to deal with specific critters" design.

Two observations suggest this:

First, the healer tests cripple basic healing strategies like /pulling, /pushing, chaining, and range healing. Therefore the tests are only moderate indicators of overall skill.


That is sure true! Given the small 'class-room' of the test I can understand that, though. To really test the chaining for example, Glory's room would have to be at least 2 snells, imo. Same goes for if the fallen would be chewed.

Originally posted by Brune

Second, the Greymyr in the test does not throw stones. If the test were designed to teach healers about the monsters, the inability of the test critter to throw rocks is quite the blunder.


I never saw the test being about teaching, but about testing :) A healer that is upper 2nd circle might get to trying to rescue GMV. The non-throwing myr I again put down to the close quarters Glory has available.

Originally posted by Brune

I wonder what it would have been like if the fighter and healer tests used the SAME critters. I think that would point more to a "design" rather than "arbitrary" context for tests.


That would be very interesting, indeed! Though, I dont quite see why that is more of the 'design' context. All I see is, that this would kinda make the healers and fighters of the same age progress through the tests at a more even speed than now.

Talin

[Lex]

Originally posted by Ruen
I don't think they are arbitrary at all, and I'm interested in knowing what other people think of them.

The thing about the tests is, they measure a fighter's or healer's ability to do something alone. Since CL is a cooperative game (especially hunting), this has very little bearing on your ability to be a good fighter or healer.

As far as the particular creatures being arbitrary, there's nothing in particular about being able to solo a rage that means "ok, NOW you can handle snagglewood". It could easily just be 4 zerks instead (probably a more likely encounter in snaggy). There's nothing special about being able to heal around 2 maha and 2 boloks, in a very small area, with little in the way of barriers, that seperates you from someone who can't. Yeah, you probably have more of some skills, but it's not like you're on a whole new level of healing ability.

I've played a while now and I know a lot of people, and their circle status has very little to do with what I think of them as a fighter or healer.

Lex

[Lex]

Originally posted by Brune
First, the healer tests cripple basic healing strategies like /pulling, /pushing, chaining, and range healing. Therefore the tests are only moderate indicators of overall skill.

I agree with what you said, except for the chaining part. It's not a healer skill. Yes, you may be a more useful on hunts or rescues if you chain, but the same could be said if you carried around a bag of kudzu or some red potions.

Lex

[Lex]

Originally posted by Hidden
I think the best 5th circle test would be an LDV and 2 DV.

Heh, I brick LDV but when they luck hit it hurts a TON. I can't imagine even one in a healer test.

I could be wrong - but it seems that not only are the creatures tougher, but Glory is more fallen in each successive test. It's just a non-Horus-dependant kinda fallen.

Not sure what would be a good 5th circle test creature, but the 2 DV sound ok. Maybe it could include things like locks or shaman that us their range attacks (so more than 2 or 3 things can hit you).

Lex

[Lex]

Originally posted by Hidden
or even better, a fallen being chewed rapidly plus a few easily dodgeable things like an Angry Mother Sasquatch and her kid, so running too much would cause negative progress.

I like this idea, but wouldn't a fallen being chewed require you to kill the stuff, since there is no cadding? I'm not familiar with how far away you can be and still use a moonstone.

Unless you just mean like 1 or 2 vultures. But then, they could be used for blocking (not necessarily a bad thing, just a consideration).

Lex

[Brune]

Lex wrote:


I've played a while now and I know a lot of people, and their circle status has very little to do with what I think of them as a fighter or healer.

Ouch. ;-)

Then she wrote:
I could be wrong - but it seems that not only are the creatures tougher, but Glory is more fallen in each successive test.

I am pretty sure this is true. Someone might know for sure (is there someone who trained no faustus, eva, or spirtus and passed two tests?).

Then she wrote:
I'm not familiar with how far away you can be and still use a moonstone.

You can be where ever you want to be and use a moonstone.

Of course, the wounded exile needs to be right there with you ;-)
(Range is 0...)

Brune