Sunstones and Newbies

[Bob the Archer]

There was an interesting discussion (http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&threadm=1fp99pa.jwbpny1h36z1kN%25mike17032%40mac.com&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26group%3Dcomp.sys.mac.games.adventure) about sunstones on the newsgroup.


When I first got my club and started chasing rats, all I knew about sunstones was that they were expensive, nice to have, and mystics had something to do with them.

I saved for one, and then won one in a raffle. What an incredeble difference it was! I wrote in my journal (http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=strongbow&itemid=1202&nc=2) about my feelings.

It was a huge change. But it was a change only because I knew what It was like to live without one. It made me appreciate having it.

I remember paying Stone-that-thinks to pass a message on. I hear he hasnt had much buisness lately.

Now, I wasnt even a Master when I got one, and I am not advocating a return to the old days of ultra-expensive sunstones.

A few days ago there was a newbie in town, someone just in the rat towers stage. This newbie had been given a sunstone during the very first day in Puddelby by a well-meaning and helpful exile.

But the newbie was full of questions, and was /think-ing those questions constantly, causing quite a bit of ill will from those of us who would have been more than happy to answer those innocent questions if only they hadnt been blasted out over the ether.

Yes, we spoke with the newbie. No, it didnt make a diffrence. There was still enough sunstone spam to satisfy a table full of vikings.



Ok, to my point. I think we need to provide a lot of advice and encouragement to newbies, but we also need to leave something for them to look forward to.

I wouldnt have near as much fun if I got off the boat with a sunstone, greatsword, knights shield, gold clothes, and a free 1000 ranks to apply where I wanted "just to help me out."

Growth is important, and should be interesting, rewarding, and fun.

[Konoko]

I can just imagine some of the questions!

That's a great gift though!


How does one learn sunstone etiquette anyways? I guess it's just a matter of listening for a while first when you first get it to see what it's like. I can't remember if I did any major sunstone screwups when I first started. I'm thinking nothing major as I got a worn sunstone from someone and I hesitated using it too much fearing it would explode or something! :)

[Bob the Archer]

Now that is a great idea, give someone a worn stone and tell them to use it only in an emergency, as it will explode after only a few uses. And they still get to listen.

[Ruen]

I believe that a lot of healers get their first sunstone that way... Someone has a partially worn stone, and is kind enough to give it to the young healer since buying a replacement is more cost-effective than getting the sunstone tuned. This is especially nice since first-circle healers have a really tough time earning the kind of money needed for a sunstone.

I do think its probably a good thing that most of us spend a zodiac or two at least without a sunstone when we first arrive. It does get us into the habit of basic good manners... ask questions face to face when possible and pay attention to the people and things around you first.

I imagine that the newbie in question will soon learn not to spam, though it may be in a negative way. There are people in the lands who /curse the senders of annoying spam, and there is also the likelyhood of an unwary sender of sunstone messages falling to a critter they didn't see because they were concentrating on the sunstone.

[Delirium]

I have given a slightly worn sunstone to a new exile with just such a warning. In any case, even with a new sunstone, a new exile will find it wearing down quickly if they use it a lot. I generally warn all new exiles not to over-use their sunstone and to train some mentus if they are concerned about the repair bills. It sounds like this particular new exile wasn't listening to any advice. In that case, this exile will just have to learn the hard way.

[Kiriel]

Personally I'm not in the habit of buying sunstones for new exiles, although I will often help them out with money towards their purchase. Sometimes folks will give me partly worn sunstones to hand out to newbies, or I may have one of my own. When I get one of these I will try to give it to a newbie who's been around at least a few days, preferably a week or more. I don't think it's a good idea for a newbie to get one on their first day- it can be overwhelming and they need to learn the etiquette gradually, as well as learn a bit about how to function without one. When giving someone a worn sunstone I always caution them about overusing it, and I always remind them that thinkto hurts the sunstone a lot less than think.

I think it's nice that sunstones aren't as hard to come by as they used to be, but I do think maybe we've gone a tad too far in the other direction. But I also think that the smaller quantity of new exiles these days makes the need for a sunstone higher for organizing hunts and acquiring of healer assistance.

[Fist of Fluff]

Originally posted by Delirium
I generally warn all new exiles not to over-use their sunstone and to train some mentus if they are concerned about the repair bills.

This myth is as old as the needing 10 Bodrus to become a fighter. I have never trained Mentus and my sunstone has worn only once in my over 2 1/2 years (ooc) in the lands. I have never seen any benefit for anyone but a Mystic training Mentus other than becoming immune to deadly poppies.

[Luminary]

Originally posted by Fist of Fluff

This myth is as old as the needing 10 Bodrus to become a fighter.

While proving that Mentus does, or doesn't, help is difficult, I would be hesitant to dismiss it as a myth. HGM has never directly said that it helps, but he most certainly has implied it (See this (http://groups.google.com/groups?q=sunstone+wear+mentus+HelpfulGM+group:comp.sys.mac.games.adventure&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=HelpfulGM-9D2DFB.14511927012000%40news.apple.com&rnum=1) posting, as an example).

Time for some fun with statistics. [:p]

The problem with proving a Mentus effect on sunstone wear, is that the chances of your sunstone wearing during a single use are probably less than 1%.

Say some amount of Mentus training did help, that it halved the chance of wearing your sunstone. The difference between 1.0% and 0.5% wear is so slight that you would have to have 1000s of uses between your Mentus-trained, and your non-trained (control) samples to see a difference.

To get enough of a statistical sample to prove with 90% certainty that Mentus helped, you would need tens of thousands of uses (no calculations here, I am just going from what I remember from my statistics studies).

If you are interested in training Mentus just to help with ss wear, I would advise against it. You would be better off training with Skea and earning more coins to repair your sunstone if it does wear.

On the other hand, if you are considering training with Mentus because it might help with sunstone wear and for his other "subtle" benefits, then go for it. It never hurts to train your mind.

Lummi

[Fist of Fluff]

I personally would not recommend Mentus to newbies to help prevent sunstone wear because it is one of those "subtle" things that cannot be proven either way. I recall a healer friend of mine who trained 15 Mentus because a Mystic told her it would keep her sunstone from wearing out. She has repaired her sunstone four times to my knowledge compared to my one time (with no Mentus). I'm sure there are other examples out there that go either way. This is from a fighter's perspective. I have never, nor will I ever, study with Mentus or Spirtus unless Deadly Poppies become as common as vermine. [;)]

[Dani Diuberr]

From a newbies point of view, I am suprised to find myself agreeing with Bob the Archer. I was presented with a character fully armed (like Athena from the head of Zeus) with a sunstone and a weapon (among other things). At the time I was grateful not to have to wander about going ??? all the time, but now, having played for a few weeks, I almost feel like I've been done out of some of the whole newbie experience. Experience which I feel would have been valuable to me as a person (halfling?).
I now realise that sunstones are the most valuable thing one can have, not to be given away lightly, but to be earned. They are at the heart of the game, allowing the best interaction with other players. They should not be prohibitively expensive, but neither should they be available on the first day. We always value something more if we have had to work for it.

(BTW - No, I'm not giving mine back.) [:)]

[Liolel]

08/13/01-That was when I was exiled
10/16/01-That was when I got my sunstone with a 900 coin loan
04/03/02-That was when I finished repaying my loan

That is my sunstone history:. It has never worn and I have no mentus. Times were harder then. When I was exiled as you can see I didn't recieve any gifts, my first gift I ever recived was a shortsword at my first clan meeting back before I joined the clan. My sunstone was not a gift it was the result of a 900 coin loan from the clan. By that point I had joined. Now I have around 2000 coins total, I've worked my way up there there was help for sure but it took time and effort. I'm not sure I understand what life is like for a new exile anymore.

[Catlin]

It took me about one (ooc) month to earn enough money to buy my sunstone (they were about 650c at the time). I can honestly say I feel more sense of accomplishment having earned the money myself rather than having one handed to me my first week of exile. I do think it is a lot easier for a fighter to exist without a sunstone than a healer, as healers are more dependent upon shares and it is difficult to get shares (or coins) without being able to locate fallens via sunstone.

(OOC, as I had already had the newbie experience with Catlin, when I started my second character (a healer, Mish'ka) I was very glad that Catlin was able to furnish her with a sunstone!) :)

[Himitsu]

I'm reminded of that famous fish proverb where it makes the point that it's better to teach someone how to fish than to simply give them a fish.

When there's a new exile, it would be better to teach them how to earn money (training with skea and/or going with a group, trading items for other items or money, trading an ability in a skill for items or money) than in simply giving them things. While I understand in not wanting to see anyone go without, it's more important that they learn how to be self-sufficient. That's why I trained with Skea so that I can not only help newer exiles without Skea of their own but so that I can earn money without having to beg for it.

[Mehan]

Originally posted by Catlin
It took me about one (ooc) month to earn enough money to buy my sunstone (they were about 650c at the time). I can honestly say I feel more sense of accomplishment having earned the money myself rather than having one handed to me my first week of exile.

Wow. You are one lucky fen. My sunstone cost 2643c. I have that written down somewhere as a record. For the first 5 (ooc) months, I didn't have a sunstone, because I refused to accept charity. Like you said, I felt more accomplished seeing the coins I had made pile up in my bank account. Wystii, a mystic who has since left the lands, used to loan me her sunstone when she was around, saying "A healer needs a sunstone to go on rescues and get tips!" and so for months, (a year + ic!) I worked. And I got one. And I still have that same sunstone. It wore once, but all in all, it's a good 2643c sunstone.

And if I could go back, I'd do it the same way.

[Archemar]

Hello all,

How long before sunstone?

I accept the loan from WOD when I join, about one and an half ic year after my landing. (I must have had some kind of discount, for Kiriel hand me the stone for 500c);
A friend of mine took two ic year to get the stone, coin by coin and playing hide and seek between south farms and meadow.
He once met Elendil with 739c in pocket and the price was 746c!

Archemar (and friend)

[Kiriel]

For a while when sunstones were more expensive I would buy them whenever they were cheap and resell them to newbies at cost. That's probably why yours was 500c Archemar. Nowadays it's not worth doing because they're pretty much always cheap and most newbies get theirs so quickly.

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Himitsu
I'm reminded of that famous fish proverb where it makes the point that it's better to teach someone how to fish than to simply give them a fish.

You've got it all wrong:
"Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day."

Alternately:
"Give a man a match, and he will be warm for a minute. Set him on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Hidden

You've got it all wrong:
"Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish, and he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day."


Are you trying to say that this is a bad thing?

If catching enough fish to eat and prepare for storage involved sitting in a boat and drinking beer (I'd add in cookies) all day, I'd do it. :cool:

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Himitsu
Are you trying to say that this is a bad thing?

If catching enough fish to eat and prepare for storage involved sitting in a boat and drinking beer (I'd add in cookies) all day, I'd do it. :cool:

No, I'm trying to say most people are lazy bums, and will avoid work whenever they can get a handout :)

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Hidden

No, I'm trying to say most people are lazy bums, and will avoid work whenever they can get a handout :)

Fishing is work? :confused:

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Himitsu
Fishing is work? :confused:

Not spent much time fishing, eh?

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Hidden
Not spent much time fishing, eh?

No, not at all. Fishing just looks more relaxing than other forms of work such as washing dishes, cleaning house, etc.

I just used the fish analogy to show that it's better to learn how to do something yourself than be dependent on someone else for your very survival needs. Of course, you can always be good at something else and trade the items you make or services you provide for fish. Even then it's good to know how to fish in case your fish provider goes out of business or switches jobs and you need to provide for yourself.

Uhm.... /action tries to relate to the original topic.

It's better to earn your sunstone then just be given one, in my opinion.

[Nunul]

Originally posted by Himitsu
Fishing just looks more relaxing than other forms of work such as washing dishes, cleaning house, etc.


When HWC is not out shooting Bambi's dad, in his (infrequent time away from CL) free time, you can find him fishing.
I don't boat-fish. To me, the boat is the one fishing. That's prime nap time.

Steelhead fishing the tributaries of the great lakes in 10-30

[Nunul]

I got my first SS a short time after WoD was formed. I had been in the lands for...hmmmm...a while I guess. To be honest, I had no idea what I was missing.

I'm a firm believer that you cannot miss what you've never experienced. When the day came that Aerick drew the money from the WoD account, it was like a veil was lifted. I looked back and then realized what I had been missing. The waiting was good.

OOC: Nunul was my first character. IMHO, its a good thing for H/S/IWC's first character at least have SOME period of time sans-SS.
For the record, the SS was in the 2500c range...and well worth it. [;)]

[Blaise]

I was in Puddleby for many months before I got a sunstone. Up until that time I had no understanding of what it could do, and how important it was for a healer. It was so expensive (1400c at that time) (Mehan, don't look at me like that! :rolleyes: ) that I never could get the last few hundred coins saved.

I had friends who put on a fundraiser to get me the last part of what I needed. That kindness still gives me a warm feeling to think about, and is the kind of thing I want to share with other newcomers. (Which is why I'm in this clan.)

Blaise

[Delirium]

Nunul - if fishing is so much trouble, why don't you wash dishes and clean house instead?[;)]

I was handed a SS my fist SS the day I joined the clan - but I'd been in the lands several zodiacs by then and had been saving up for a SS. Also, I had to pay back the clan 2000 coins for the cost of the SS and that took a while. I agree that it's better to have to work for something. I seem to recall that there used to be contests for new exiles - wasn't there one for 500c for telling your story? Perhaps we could organize some sort of contest when we have a SS to give rather than just giving it t the first new exile we happen across who needs one?

[Himitsu]

A contest would be great, and they'll have worked for it so they'll be more appreciative of it.

[Unregistered]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nunul
[B]

Steelhead fishing the tributaries of the great lakes in 10-30

[Kiriel]

I like the idea of contests to give out sunstones but these days virtually all new exiles have one within a week. So if we were to have a contest it would probably be best to make it a monetary prize so they could use it on whatever item they wanted. I thought the Newbielympics were great for that- we were able to get a lot of nice items in the hands of newer folk and they earned them in the contests. I do think it would be great to have another Newbielympics but it's a big event with a lot of planning and I think summertime might be a better time for it this time. Perhaps we can organize a few small contests though, with maximum rank requirements similar to the Newbielympics.

[Steady Foot]

Talking about Sunstones.... I have a few that need homes, along with some other things. T'rr'll gave me all his items before he left the lands.

Is there going to be a Newbie olympics again?

[Taryn]

I have heard the following: that some Mentus will significantly reduce sunstone wear, that good karma reduces sunstone wear, and that the intervals between sunstone wears are not equal, in particular that the last interval is the longest. At least one of these is likely to be true; my experience is as follows.

20 Spring 547 sunstone obtained (good karma = 20)
65 Spring 547 1st sunstone wear (good karma = phial)
14 Summer 547 2nd sunstone wear (good karma = goblet)
14 Autumn 547 started training Mentus
54 Autumn 547 stopped training Mentus = 20
37 Winter 549 3rd sunstone wear (good karma = flagon)

The only other factor I can think of is that in my early days as a healer, I equipped my orga eye frequently (thus taking my sunstone off), which I rarely do now.

Taryn.

[Michael]

Originally posted by Bob the Archer


Ok, to my point. I think we need to provide a lot of advice and encouragement to newbies, but we also need to leave something for them to look forward to.

I wouldnt have near as much fun if I got off the boat with a sunstone, greatsword, knights shield, gold clothes, and a free 1000 ranks to apply where I wanted "just to help me out."

Growth is important, and should be interesting, rewarding, and fun.

Agreed. SSes should be earned, just like everything else.

[Michael]

Originally posted by Luminary


On the other hand, if you are considering training with Mentus because it might help with sunstone wear and for his other "subtle" benefits, then go for it. It never hurts to train your mind.

Lummi

If you arnt a mystic, DONT train mentus. Ever. Hell I am not even sure its useful for mystics.

Get 15 skea instead and you will make enough to cover the extra wear from the SS, even if mentus does help SS wear and there is no evidence that it does.

Mentus SDB.

[Himitsu]

Originally posted by Michael


If you arnt a mystic, DONT train mentus. Ever. Hell I am not even sure its useful for mystics.

Get 15 skea instead and you will make enough to cover the extra wear from the SS, even if mentus does help SS wear and there is no evidence that it does.

Mentus SDB.

I am in agreement with Michael as I have 100 Mentus (I just love people taller than me saying I keep them on their toes) and while I was training it I noticed no obvious improvement in my skills. I figured it was a Mystic quality to have more than the average amount of Mentus which is why I trained so much.

However, I was smart enough to train 50 times with Skea and that's helped me out a lot more in having enough money to keep my sunstone in working condition than my Mentus did.