In Pursuit of Knowledge

[Taryn]

I would like to connect with people would are interested in gathering evidence in order to understand how our universe works. People who feel that, to discover the truth, one has to measure things. While I've been doing some research on my own, there are many things that either are beyond my abilities to measure, or require the cooperation of others. Some of the questions I'm interested in are:

Is chance to hit (or be hit) a linear combination of attack skill, defense skill, and balance? If so, are attack skill, defense skill, and balance proportional to one's training in those skills? If so, how does training in Atkus, Detha, or Balthus relate to percentage point improvement in chance to hit or to avoid being hit?

Exactly what are the advantages/disadvantages of each weapon (and shield) for attack skill, defense skill, and balance recovery?

How widely do creatures vary in their attack and defense abilities?

Does Awaria really have a cap? If so, exactly what is it?

How do the Marsh and Tanglewood sn'ells really do relate to each other, directionally measured with a skristal?

How wide are the fallen message bands, relative to Horus training? How much base Horus does an untrained healer have?

What are the base abilities of each race and gender? How much individual variation in these base abilities are there?

What exactly are the effects of an orga eye? How much equivalent Troilus does it provide? How much does it reduce attack skill and defense? What is the chance that an orga eye will allow a "quite" fallen to be raised? How much Horus training does this represent?

What exactly is the healing effect of Rodnus training, both on the healer and the one being healed?

Exactly how much does Loovma training affect one's chance to break a chain?

Exactly how much does Skea training affect one's chance to skin a creature?

Does good karma or does Mentus training reduce sunstone wear? If so, by how much? Do the wearing down messages happen at equal or unequal intervals?

If you're interested in investigating any of these or other questions about the nature of our universe, please let me know. Gathering evidence can be a boring activity (like swinging at a monastery dummy more than 1000 times, or letting large vermine try to bite you several hundred times). There

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Taryn
I would like to connect with people would are interested in gathering evidence in order to understand how our universe works. People who feel that, to discover the truth, one has to measure things.

In general, if you discover and publish any number related to the way CL works, it will change within a few updates. Just keep that in mind.

Does Awaria really have a cap? If so, exactly what is it?
As soon as I'm done with my current stint of Horus, I'll get that answered for you.

Does good karma or does Mentus training reduce sunstone wear? If so, by how much? Do the wearing down messages happen at equal or unequal intervals?
Good karma does not. Bad karma does. Mentus is unproven and pretty well untestable in any finite ammount of time.

[QUOTE][B]Let

[Archemar]

Hello,

Originally posted by Taryn
(...)
Exactly how much does Skea training affect one's chance to skin a creature?

(...)


This on was debated countless time here and on csmga scrolls. (remember This scroll (http://www.windsofdawn.org/forum/showthread.html?s=&threadid=1527&highlight=initial+skea) in which you gain some information)

Archemar

(on a side note, I whish for more plots and quests and less number and figure)

[Lex]

Originally posted by Taryn
Is chance to hit (or be hit) a linear combination of attack skill, defense skill, and balance? If so, are attack skill, defense skill, and balance proportional to one's training in those skills? If so, how does training in Atkus, Detha, or Balthus relate to percentage point improvement in chance to hit or to avoid being hit?

Here is my estimate. Well not mine alone, but more of a collection of people's input, and one I agree with. You need 1 Atkus to hit 2 Detha, and 1 Balthus is equivalent to about 0.8 Detha for defense. "To hit" is defined as hitting 50% of the time, which is the only number that I can make sense out of (remember there's no 0% or 100%). It's also the easiest to measure.

As a side note - I've noticed orga *always* have exactly enough Atkus "to hit" themselves. Whenever they vary, their defense and Atkus both go up or down.

Originally posted by Taryn
Exactly what are the advantages/disadvantages of each weapon (and shield) for attack skill, defense skill, and balance recovery?

Very hard to measure, but if you try it use a newbie Thoom or something like that so the small advantages are more noticeable. To be honest, that goes a little outside of what I'd call "fun" :)

Originally posted by Taryn
Does Awaria really have a cap? If so, exactly what is it?

I've never heard that Awaria has a cap. It was once more powerful than it is now - but I think it's efficiency was reduced as opposed to using a hard rank cap.I have a healer that trained a little Awaria and it really helped self-heal a lot.

Originally posted by Taryn
How do the Marsh and Tanglewood sn'ells really do relate to each other, directionally measured with a skristal?

Well, you can get a party together and a mystic and find out yourself :)

Originally posted by Taryn
Exactly how much does Loovma training affect one's chance to break a chain?

Cronos used to keep notes on this, and collected them from other chainers. He may have a scroll somewhere.

Originally posted by Taryn
Exactly how much does Skea training affect one's chance to skin a creature?

I believe you can skin a coin value 1/4 your # of Skea ranks all but luck. At about 1/3, your skinning close to 50%. And by 1/2 it's all luck. Actually maybe less than 1/2, but the other 2 numbers should be right on. I have 120 Skea and I almost never miss a skin under 30c. By 40c I'm missing a few but still doing okay. By 50c it's all luck.

Lex

[Michael]

Originally posted by Lex


Here is my estimate. Well not mine alone, but more of a collection of people's input, and one I agree with. You need 1 Atkus to hit 2 Detha, and 1 Balthus is equivalent to about 0.8 Detha for defense. "To hit" is defined as hitting 50% of the time, which is the only number that I can make sense out of (remember there's no 0% or 100%). It's also the easiest to measure.


Lex

I think detha is even more effective than that. I see such a huge difference in defence between balthus fighters and detha fighters. I dont know anyone that bricks orga lyfes and does not have a detha ledger.

But the rest of your stuff is dead on I think.

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Lex
I've never heard that Awaria has a cap. It was once more powerful than it is now - but I think it's efficiency was reduced as opposed to using a hard rank cap.I have a healer that trained a little Awaria and it really helped self-heal a lot.

I'm pretty sure Awaria does have a "cap", based on your faustus, so that you need both trainers to get really good selfheal. This makes sense as a way to nerf all-awaria healers without totally destroying Awaria. It's also why people who make massive-awaria test characters report the trainer sucks so badly.

[Taryn]

Originally posted by Hidden
In general, if you discover and publish any number related to the way CL works, it will change within a few updates.

Thank you Hidden, you've just inspired another question for my list! On average, how many chaos storms does it take for the gods to change something, to invalidate a published number. By how much do they change it?

The gods themselves are part of our universe; perhaps we should also measure their behavior.[:)] Also, if the experiments are published along with the conclusions, the experiments can be repeated. Some numbers may become fuzzy, but their very fuzziness can be quantified. Or if the gods are so touchy about published numbers, maybe we should focus on publishing the most hated numbers. Like how a shield works. And keep publishing them until the gods change it to something we like better. Ah, if the gods could be so easily manipulated!

As one of my clanmates likes to yell, "Never give up! Never surrender!"

But, back to your point, it may well be that the more precisely something is measured, the less precise it becomes. Why, I think I'll call that Hidden's Uncertainty Principle.

There is a certain irony in what you said above, and your earlier statement that "50 rodnus gives exactly 80 faustus". Since you said you didn't do the test yourself, it sounds like it was done before your time, eons ago. Surely by now the gods would have changed it?

Oh, and Lex, I'm actually doing the boring weapons tests myself, swinging at the dummy in the monastery thousands of times. With my meagre fighting skills (as a healer), the differences are quite measureable. And somehow, I feel more productive doing that than sitting in town center doing nothing. Which suggests an alternative experiment for measuring a shield's effectiveness for high-level fighters, since you didn't like my last one.

Send two fighters, one of which can occasionally (more than luck hit) the other, to the Arena. I've measured the accuracy difference between a quarterstaff and a longsword to be 16 percentage points. [With a quarterstaff, I hit the dummy 185 times out of 1000 tries; with a longsword 239 times out of 700 tries.] My theory is this difference, as well as the difference between using a shield or not, is linearly related to one's fighting training. So, using a quarterstaff against a shielded person should result in about 25 percentage points less hits than using a longsword against an unshielded person. By this I mean 10% hits vs. 35% hits, or 20% hits vs. 45% hits, or 30% hits vs. 55% hits, and so on. Lower accuracy should manifest a greater relative difference, unless both ways are luck hits.

And need I mention that the Arena is safer? Unlike a creature, the attacking fighter won't be trying to kill the other fighter, or the healer(s). I presume. [:)]

On the subject of tests, here's one anyone can do to measure their base health. Step one, measure how long it takes you to regenerate your health from the red-yellow transition to full = T1. [No using moonstone or sylphstone, of course!] Step two, train some Higgrus/Histia from H1 to H2 (this includes contributions from mixed trainers like Eva/Evus, just as the messages do). Step three, remeasure regeneration time T2. Then your base Higgrus/Histia is

H0 = T1 * (H2 - H1) / (T2 - T1) - H1.

You don't have to use the red-yellow transition, any fixed interval will do, although larger times will tend to make the (T2-T1) difference more accurate. The assumption is that training any fixed amount of Higgrus/Histia will increase your health the same amount, no matter how high your Higgrus/Histia. That assumption can be tested by doing the above test more than once, i.e. for (widely) differing amounts of Higgrus/Histia. If the assumption is true, you should get the same H0.

(Also, you cannot train at all with Troilus, or anyone who teaches what Troilus teaches, in between these measurements.)

I am interested in the results, if you supply the supporting data as well.

Taryn.

[Twilth]

I once met someone who had an Awaria ledger, if that answers your question. [:)]

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Twilth
I once met someone who had an Awaria ledger, if that answers your question. [:)]

That'd be Lark. Compared to the number of ranks she's spent on it, her selfheal is TERRIBLE.

[Twilth]

Actually, that was Intrepiden. [:D]

[Bob the Archer]

Taryn and I are having a dissagreement: I think an Orga Eye reduces Histia, Taryn thinks it increases Troilus.

We tested my recovery rate from the red/yellow transition to full:
with OE 3 minutes 18 seconds
without 7 minutes 2 seconds.

Does anyone have a relable test for gauging how much damage I can take? Critter bites are too variable.

[Lex]

Originally posted by Taryn
I've measured the accuracy difference between a quarterstaff and a longsword to be 16 percentage points. [With a quarterstaff, I hit the dummy 185 times out of 1000 tries; with a longsword 239 times out of 700 tries.

Okay but here's the question - how much Atkus do you have? With this test you can say that the longsword has more Atkus that the quarterstaff (something I already knew) but you can't say by how much.

Originally posted by Taryn
Then your base Higgrus/Histia is
H0 = T1 * (H2 - H1) / (T2 - T1) - H1.

What if training Higgrus or Histia gives a very smal amount of Troilus? It might sound silly but it's not impossible.

Lex

[Lex]

Originally posted by Bob the Archer
Does anyone have a relable test for gauging how much damage I can take? Critter bites are too variable.

Range weapons are the same damage each time. The problem is that you need something that takes a small amount of damage each "bite" so that you can more accurately say how many it takes to kill you... BUT doing so will result in you Troilusing small amounts while you're taking damage. You can try with shaman flames.

Lex

[Taryn]

Originally posted by Lex
Okay but here's the question - how much Atkus do you have? With this test you can say that the longsword has more Atkus that the quarterstaff (something I already knew) but you can't say by how much.

Lex, you're missing the point. I'm a healer; I have very little Atkus, Detha, Balthus, or Regia. I have measured the different accuracies of weapons in terms of chance to hit, and the difference between using or not using a shield in terms of chance to be hit. I claim that the differences I've measured are the same whether one has little fighter ability or alot of fighter ability. You claim that degree of fighter ability matters, in particular that the differences will be much smaller for fighters with great abilities. I've measured the low end. It's up to high level fighters to measure the other end.

And to forestall the inevitable misunderstanding, even if the differences I've measured are the same for high ability fighters as for low ability fighters, that doesn't mean the differences will be as useful for high ability fighters as low ability fighters. Indeed, in my previous posts, I've already discussed why they will be less useful the more you train.

Relating chance to hit to Atkus training is entirely a different question. If you want to measure that, measure your accuracy against a dummy with a specific weapon, train some Atkus, and measure your accuracy again. But once again, there is the question of linearity. My theory is that if your accuracy is increases by +X percentage points after training +A Atkus ranks, then it will always increase by +X percentage points whenever you train +A Atkus ranks. You are claiming that X is much smaller for those who have high Atkus than for those who have low Atkus. So test it.

[i]Originally posted by Lex
What if training Higgrus or Histia gives a very small amount of Troilus? It might sound silly but it's not impossible.

It's neither silly nor impossible. Just rather improbable. Ask any high Higgrus healer who hasn't trained any Troilus what message Troilus tells them. Better yet, ask them to train 9 ranks of Troilus, and see what message they get. I'd think if Higgrus gave any significant amount of Troilus, it would have been noticed by now. If Higgrus gives an insignificant amount of Troilus, that only adds an insigificant error to my equation.

I've already done the test for myself, and the result seems reasonable. That number is, hmmm, maybe I won't publish it quite yet.[:)]

Taryn.

[Taryn]

Originally posted by Bob the Archer
Taryn and I are having a disagreement: I think an Orga Eye reduces Histia, Taryn thinks it increases Troilus.
...
Does anyone have a reliable test for gauging how much damage I can take? Critter bites are too variable.

Eureka! I have come up with a repeatable way to deal you a specific amount damage. Negative damage! By using my moonstone.

I've already worked out the math. [I'll send you this in a private post.] Let's get together again some time and do some measurements!

Taryn.

[Taryn]

Originally posted by Taryn
I've already done the test for myself, and the result seems reasonable.

Oops, I should make clear, the test I've already done for myself is determining my base health (Higgrus), according to the equation I published.

Taryn.

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Lex
Range weapons are the same damage each time.

You are mistaken. Ranged shots are just as variable as melee attacks.

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Bob the Archer
Does anyone have a relable test for gauging how much damage I can take? Critter bites are too variable.

Have you tried standing in the surf? I've never really tested it, but it seems kinda consistent.

Dandelion

[Bob the Archer]

Originally posted by Dandelion


Have you tried standing in the surf? I've never really tested it, but it seems kinda consistent.

Dandelion

We tried that. I was rather supprised to find that while suf appears to be consistent over a short time period (under 15 seconds) it varries up to 30% over longer time periods (more than a minute) I have the, unproven, opinion that the variation apeared to varry consistently, and may be related to the tide. More to reserch later.

Taryn's idea of measuring with a moonstone is the best so far- since the healing ability is so consistent.

[Lex]

Originally posted by Hidden
You are mistaken. Ranged shots are just as variable as melee attacks.

Not sure about EVERY ranged weapon, but lock and noth bolts hit for the exact same amount each time. If there's any variance it's so small I can't see a difference on my health bar. Hel bolts take me to high red every single time - never yellow, never kill me (since I've had this much Histia of course).

Lex

[Hidden]

Originally posted by Lex
Not sure about EVERY ranged weapon, but lock and noth bolts hit for the exact same amount each time. If there's any variance it's so small I can't see a difference on my health bar. Hel bolts take me to high red every single time - never yellow, never kill me (since I've had this much Histia of course).

I'll give you 'noth bolts, but I'm pretty sure shaman flames, zealot flames, and *lock bolts are slightly (if not very) variable. I've taken a crapload of 'em, and some do hit harder than others.

[Michael]

Originally posted by Hidden


I'll give you 'noth bolts, but I'm pretty sure shaman flames, zealot flames, and *lock bolts are slightly (if not very) variable. I've taken a crapload of 'em, and some do hit harder than others.

All ranged weapons seem to do the same amount of damage to me every time.

I cant think of any that dont.