Balance Tax

[Aerick]

Perhaps this should be in the OOC section, but I think we should conduct an investigation of the balance tax.

I know I wasn't reading the Newsgroup for several weeks, and it may have come out then, but last I heard, HGM wasn't 100% sure why the tax was there, and no really good reason had been put forth for its existance.

Since we have an edge on the Newsgroup, in that we're mostly civil, intelligent, reasonable individuals, I think we should try looking into the matter of why the tax is there, whether it's needed, and if another solution might not work better.

-Aerick

[Aerick]

To start us out:

I recall hearing long ago, that it was in part to curb the advantage of [ab]using a shiny dagger to get faster balance regeneration. I bet that's fixed, or could be easily.

In my experience, it has virtually no impact on Fighters. I don't chain, though, so it could be a big deal there.

It effectively prevents healers from fighting. I don't see this as needed. Healers can't fight anything large anyway. If they want to train to be healer-fighters, I think it should be allowed. They just have to be less efficient than Fighters. Substantially less. So if a healer went straight 'fighter' they would need 1k ranks to be equivalent to a mid-2nd level fighter. That might be against the vision of CL, though. I don't know.
The balance tax prevents this option. I think that is a bad thing. Perhaps it exists to do just this, though.

The 'It is realistic' line I don't buy. It makes sense, except that we should then be able to hold our moonstones in our left hands, and swords in the right.

It's possible that the balance tax is important to some as-yet-unknown and undeveloped end. If so, then sure.


In summation, my stance is that the balance tax hurts primarily healers [mystics are unknown to me] and that it hurts them in a way that is unneeded.

Other thoughts or information?

[Kiriel]

Actually, it affects me as a fighter in 2 ways:

1. When I get surrounded by a bunch of little vermine, I have to choose whether to try to kill them with my axe or switch to my dagger. Switching to my dagger wastes precious time and makes it more difficult for me to fight my way out, but the axe uses too much balance for them. The main reason I haven't looked into getting a gossamer is the balance tax.

2. I generally leave my axe equipped most of the time in case I run into anything. If it weren't for the tax I'd generally wander around with my purse equipped so I wouldn't hit anything I didn't want to.

[Aerick]

Ah, Kiriel, I hadn't thought of those (obviously =)

In your (and the other fighter's) opinion(s), is the cost of the balance tax something that adds to fun, or detracts? Clearly it makes the situation harder, but in a way that is exciting, or just irritating?

[Kiriel]

Personally I don't like it- I think fighting would be more fun if we had more flexibility to switch between weapons as the situation warranted it. The balance tax (along with the pack size limit) tends to encourage specialization in a single weapon, which really makes being a fighter a lot more simplistic than it would otherwise be. Now that I'm in 3rd circle and I'm looking at all the new weapons available, I'm thinking that they'd be a lot more interesting if only the balance tax didn't make using them such a pain.

As a healer it was never that much of a problem, but that's because my healer doesn't really fight. It is somewhat obnoxious for self healing when using cad, and for killing rats, but I think it hurts the lower level healers more- the ones who can still get experience and enjoy the occasional tag, and are still getting used to item switching.

[Aerick]

I do want to point out that if you can switch weapons completely on the fly, it does a lot to reduce the risks of being a high-Atkus fighter.
If you can switch to club for vermine, off them, and be back with your greatsword in a heartbeat, it lessens the effects of the vermine.

Now, I hate vermine as it is. I don't like that they're there. Especially as a fighter. But I think that 'they' would probably embark on this point as an example of why the balance tax is needed.

[Nunul]

As far as my healer is concerned, When he tags, he jumps in, swings once, jumps back, and uses a hot key to re-equip his moonstone to selfheal/heal.

When you switch items with a full load of balance, there is no pause that I know of. So if a healer wants to tag, a simple macro helps out a great deal.

Nunul however...
Sheesh, what a maroon...
Dodge-parry-thrust SPROING!

Nunul gets about 2.5 swings with whatever weapon he has in hand. (Evus likes me tho!) If ever I get to the point where Nunul has more than 2 swings...then I will worry 'bout taxation.

(for the record, I agree with the IC reasoning for the tax as far as taking the time to get a weapon out of your scabbard/pack and ready it realistically. In addition, being a hunter in RL, I can relate to the silliness of carying more than one large weapon around to begin with.
EX> Dan the hunter having his 12 guage Mossberg in hand sees a deer aproaching at a brisk pace...he instantly has his Winchester model 94 lever action rifle in hand and shoots the venison on the hoof. He suddenly cannot remember how the hell he stowed his mossberg so damn quickly. And we are talking about ranged and modern weapons here)

-HWC fer Nunul & Co.

[Althus]

Savage: Dorf season!
Nunul: Artak season!
Savage: Dorf season!
Nunul: Artak season!
Savage: Dorf season!
Nunul: Artak season!
Savage: Dorf season!
Nunul: Artak season!
Savage: Dorf season!
Nunul: Artak season!
Savage: Dorf season!
Nunul: Artak season!
Savage: Artak season!
Nunul: Dorf season, shoot!
*BANG!*

[Aerick]

Nunul, I completely agree with you as to the validity of it taking time to switch between weapons. Or to switch between any two things. Watch someone cooking when the phone rings....

Mostly, I whine in the instance of the moonstone. You just hold it, and push it at people. That can be done in the left hand. Sure you have to concentrate and all, so should only be able to use moonstone or weapon one at a time, but I don't see the realism in it always needing to be in the right hand.

I'm also not entirely sure the level of realism is needed in the game. I bet it'd be hard to fight if you REALLY have to pee, but we don't have that reality to cope with.

But yes, in real life, it definitely takes a fair bit of time to juggle between items, especially if they are large items.

[Nunul]

Aerick Spake:
>"I'm also not entirely sure the level of realism is needed in the game. I bet it'd be hard to fight if you REALLY have to pee, but we don't have that reality to cope with."

We do not? I can remember 2 occurances where I had to pee so bad when in a distant land that I let Nunul stand there while I ran to pay Gaia a visit. Nunul doesn't solo well while I am AFK! 8)

[Delirium]

Nunul said:

"When you switch items with a full load of balance, there is no pause that I know of. So if a healer wants to tag, a simple macro helps out a great deal. "

As a healer who does a lot of tagging, I can assure you that there *is* a pause even when you switch at full balance. The pause is in balance recovery, so you don't notice it unless you swing. I have swiched to dagger, swung, and watched my balance stay down enough times that I now keep my dagger equiped unless I am healing or running.

[Aethelred]

One of the reasons for the tax that was pointed on the newsgroup seems relevant here, and kinda drives home the point of the balance tax:

Before the tax, healers were soloing noids. Not one noid, the whole cave.

Now that being said, as a fighting healer (well, not so much anymore...) the balance tax has killed me a number of times...it is the biggest pain in the butt I can think of (short of falling to a vermine swarm), but I also grant the necessity of it. Without the tax, healers really have the potential to be uber-fighters, and fighters are just crippled healers. Mystics will still suck.

Ask me that question next time I fall because of the tax and I will completely disavow making this post...

Aeth

[Lilly]

I personally like the idea of a healer that can solo a noid. Or multiple noids, if they were smart about it. I think a better solution to the scenario would be to, instead of weakening everyone, let the healers be strong, and then up the fighters abilities so that they were noticably stronger. Produce an addition to the noid cavern to allow for heavier hunting. repeat! Everyone is capable, everyone expands, and (hopefully) everyone is happy! even let the mystics be able to defend themsleves a bit. alot more options would come of that, and a much richer game, in my opinion.

Arteress Lai

[Nunul]

Delerium spoke,
"As a healer who does a lot of tagging, I can assure you that there *is* a pause even when you switch at full balance. The pause is in balance recovery, so you don't notice it unless you swing. I have swiched to dagger, swung, and watched my balance stay down enough times that I now keep my dagger equiped unless I am healing or running."

I stand corrected Del. With my healing/fighting style, I am unaware of any pause of balance. As I stated-while a healer, and tagging, I tend to swoop in and swing once, back away and heal. I pay more attention to my spirit recovery. While I heal up (presuming I've been hit) my balance from the attack is built back up. Of course, I am speaking of tagging while hunting with a group. I seldom find myself attempting to solo beasts. If surrounded and alone, I am more focussed on keeping myself healed up and SSing if things get out of hand.

HWC fer Nunul & Co.

[Sargon]

Hi!

The one with the red slippers said:
I think a better solution to the scenario would be to,
instead of weakening everyone, let the healers be
strong, and then up the fighters abilities so that they
were noticably stronger. Produce an addition to the
noid cavern to allow for heavier hunting. repeat!

That sounds to me like giving every exile 100c but increasing the lib tax or something at the same time. And in some years the cheapest item there is in the lands costs 100000c.

It's the same thing with 'being rich': It's not about having a lot of coins, it's about having more than others.

About the balance tax: I don't think I can contribute much here, since I'm not suffering under it and I'm probably not aware of the problems. [but I have to post - otherwise I'll never catch Konoko]

Sargon

[Corwin]

As I recall, someone made a "helpful" suggestion on the Usenet group that struck a chord with DT. Can you believe it? Balance tax was a PLAYER'S idea! Yuck!

Corwin
Outraged Clown

[Nuvali]

Further proof of just how *imbalanced* some of us players really are.