Fighter Training

[Aerick]

I was considering fighter training strategies, and I encountered something I don't quite grasp.

Why ever train Balthus?

If you can keep your Regia up enough, you can swing constantly (or as fast as Konoko, which seems constant). Detha is more efficient for straight defense.

I suppose you'd have to train enough Balthus to maintain a swing as your Atkus/Darkus increases, but why have more than one swing? Is it nigh impossible to regen fast enough?

[Althus]

As you get up there in the ranks, Regia becomes less than effective at counterbalancing atkus and darkus. With a mere dagger, to swing constantly with 180 atkus and 60 darkus, it requires 550+ Regia. Way too much.

In lieu of that, lots of Balthus and many swings from that gives more flexibility when surrounded in vermine/rats/whatever. Detha has only proven to be slightly more effective at defense, and for the extra swings, Balthus is sometimes preferable. It's a personal choice, really.

On a side note, monster training styles also vary hugely in this. TGs only have one balthus swing, and entirely rely on Detha for defense, whereas Green Arachnoids have absolutely no defense (this comes straight from Joe's mouth) and rely entirely on Balthus and regia for both defense and offense.

[Sargon]

Hi!

May I ask what Balthus trains? I've heard that Regia helps in regaining balance (sounds like the healer's respia for spirit) So what does Balthus do? Give you more balance in total or something like that?

Also, I've never understood the discussion that after getting atkus a fighter has to get something of a different trainer to balance it again. I thought Atkus helps you to hit more accurately. Why do I loose swings if I hit more accurately?

These fighter trainers are way more confusing than the healer trainers! :)

Sargon

[Althus]

Atkus and darkus are like Faustus: they help you do what you do quicker and more effectively, but at the same time make you run out of energy faster, and thus need to be balanced with Balthus/Regia/Swengus.

Balthus is like Sespus: Increases capacity. Not many people train him directly, but those that do swear by him.

Regia: Respia, self explanatory.

Histia: Exactly like Higgy. (A bit stronger or weaker, possibly. Definitely less slaughter.)

Rodnus: Spirtus

Evus/Swengus (sorta): Eva

[Konoko]

I have 150 Regia. 0 Swengus, 12 Balthus, and 50 Evus...

I have several swings with my short sword (4-5).


But my Atkus is only 70 and Darkus is 55. To be able to start hitting the bigger things and pass 3rd circle, I think I need about 150 Atkus. Now if I just train Atkus, my swings will get all screwy. So I"m not training in that... :)

Right now I'm working on Detha (I have 85 or so right now) and I need approx 150 I'm told for 3rd circle test. Once I get Detha to 100 or so then I'll work maybe on some Balthus directly.

I've heard Swengus is good too so maybe I'll train that but I think I would like to train directly and avoid Swengus. Any comments on this?

Konoko

[Farhope]

Personnaly, if I want both Regia/Balthus, I prefer to train with Swengus. I think that there is a little bonus in training Swengus than training Balthus/Regia (a small bonus only).

In fact, I have never train with Balthus or Regia directly, only with Urgelt, Blitz, Cygnus (or Swengus) and Evus.

Btw, Balthus is happier with my training than Regia... I don't know why. Maybe Evus or Urgelt, Blitz, Cygnus or Swengus is more focused on Balthus than on Regia, not sure.

[Aethelred]

From my trainign for my fighter:

Swengus trains roughly 60% Balthus (balance) and 40% Regia (balance recovery)...it has no bonus like Evus does (i.e. trains over 100% per rank).

Balthus is hugely valuable, especially the higher you go. Not only does it help with your number of swings, but its benefit to defense is important as all get out. From the hunts that I have been going on of late, it sems that a 3

[Aethelred]

Oops...didn't address Sargon's point of regenerating balance quickly versus having multiple swings:

I am not sure if one is truly better than the other, but I can say that the majority opinion seems to be that maintaining 2.5 to 3 swings with your chosen weapon is best (at least I know of VERY few fighters who do not keep their balance high enough to maintain that number of swings regardless of their Regia).

[Lex]

To approach the issue, consider this...

You have 3 swings with your chosen weapon, but would like 4. This can be approached offensively or defensively.

To increase offense, train Regia until you have a 4th swing. This will also decrease the amount of time it takes to recover even one swing. So let's say it takes you (based on your Darkus and what weapon you are using) about 9 hits to kill a zerk, on average. You will be able to swing 4 times just as quickly as anyone else with 4 swings, but with more Regia you will get out 9 swings (or however many it takes for you to hit 9 times) much faster. It also helps with vermin swarms, as good Regia lets you swing more often.

Now consider defense. If you use Balthus to get that 4th swing, you will recover more slowly, but you get the added benefit of more total defense (so long as you don't swing out). People say Detha is better at making things whiff you than Balthus, but the consensus seems to be that's it's only a little better.

If you are happy with your number of swings and recovery rate, then temper Atkus and Darkus training with Swengus. This will keep a constant recovery rate (or very close to it).

Personally, I really like Swengus / Regia / Balthus more than any of the other trainers. The story about going from 3 to 4 swings was exactly what I did, when I decided to use an axe most of the time. I used to barely solo a bolok, it would always get me to red if I was able to kill it at all, but now with the extra swing (I did it mostly with Regia, but included Swengus as well) I kill them more quickly and they only get me down to about 40% health.

Lex

[Konoko]

Thanks Lex!

I think you summarised it quite nicely! I will stick with regia but I do need some more atkus/darkus if I ever hope to pass the 3rd circle test. I like the bit you say about training swengus if you want to keep the current recovery rate and # of swings. I'll get some more detha and then perhaps do some testing with swengus vs regia/balthus.


Konoko

[Althus]

Good info Lex, although I'm afraid I'm going to have to catch you on one thing.

Swengus isn't so great for offsetting Atkus/Darkus, because he contains more Balthus than Regia. He will eventually slow your total balance, which, combined with the Balthus componont of Atkus/Darkus, will eventually make you very sluggish if you train Swengus purely to keep up swings. At least for Darkus, I highly reccomend Regia over Swengus.

[Lex]

That's the first time I've heard someone say Swengus is biased toward Balthus. I've also heard people say Swengus has a little more than 1 rank worth of Balthus + Regia (a small bonus). Someone else told me they noticed 10 Regia + 10 Balthus gave them about 25 Swengus (in opposition to the last statement). Hmm... lots of conflicting info.

Has anyone trained only Swengus (no Regia or Balthus)? If so, maybe they can see if the message for both Regia and Balthus change at the same time.

Lex

[Althus]

I'm working on that with a spare character =)

Results as soon as he passes 2nd circle.

[Aethelred]

Actually, both Fist of Fluff (with his multiple characters) and myself (with my one fighter) have tested Swengus fairly comprehensively. In addition we have talked with other fighers who have confirmed our findings that Swengus is roughly 60:40 for Balthus:Regia. He does not give a bonus that we have been able to detect...

For those who are interested, myself, Fist, and one or two others have made an effort to find out the rank/teaching details for every trainer that we have access to. However, that being said, Delta Tao has an admitted policy that they will tweak and change trainers such as Eva/Evus (and other multi-trainers) if exiles publish the percentages of each rank. Therefore any statement or detail of what various trainers teach has to be pretty much assumed to be just showing a general range and tendency rather than explicit and accurate percentages.

[Lex]

Wow, that's good to know that Swengus favors Balthus. Another reason (like I needed one) to go after more Regia as time goes on. I really like Regia. When you can just keep pounding something into the ground without pausing for air, you really feel like a powerhouse.

About Evus... I asked so many people, and they all had something different to say. This could be because of tweaks, maybe due to miscounts, who knows. Someone who trained Evus for about 500 ranks gave me a very precise breakdown, which turned out not to coincide (not even close) to what I was getting.

Is there any possibility it varies from person to person, or from one race to another? I noticed my swings deplete rapidly with Evus, but I compared notes with another person who's swings were affected differently.

I know many people disagree, but to me Evus is for library characters, giving you more total ranks in a given time. For those that hunt regularly (okay, okay, I hunt a bit more than "regularly") Evus is just no fun.

Thanks again for the Swengus info, that definitely helps.

Lex

[Althus]

There are two different Evuses. Old and new. New evus was implemented a good while after the Ripture War, and favored Atkus/Darkus enough over Balthus and Regia to make people loose swings. Previous to that, it was possible to maintain, or even gain swings with Evus, making him somewhat of a super-trainer.

[Lilly]

My fighter has 200 detha and 100 balthus, and it doesnt seem to faze the rage at all - it hits me at full balance, or no balance. I may have poor luck, but based on my experiences, i dont see how 150 detha could hold the rage at bay sufficently.

[Sargon]

Hi!

It seems to me that it's not so clear as to which trainers are "basic" trainers and which are "composite" trainers. I thought that composite trainers are Evus/Eva and the others would be basic trainers. Given the conversation below, it seems to me that this is not true.

While I'm not overly enjoyed by the fact that the effectiveness of certain (or all) trainers change over time, I hope they follow at least this simple rule: A composite trainer should give 1.00 ranks or more.

Example:

A and B are basic skills
Basic trainer 1 trains skill 1*A
Basic trainer 2 trains skill 1*B
Composite trainer trains x*A and y*B

case (x+y > 1)
By training with the composite trainer you get more total ranks on the positive side, but you train with a fixed ratio x/y in the skills A/B on the negative side. This sounds like a fair choice to me and I guess that would be within DT's philosophy. (ooc, gasp!)

case (x+y = 1)
The composite trainer is pretty useless since you can reach a certain ratio x/y with the basic trainers 1&2 just as well while getting exactly the same number of ranks. There's no reason to choose the composite trainer, except for when you're sure you want this x/y ratio and you are too lazy to switch trainers daily.

case (x+y < 1)
Now this is really evil. Not even do you train with a fixed ratio x/y, but you also get less total ranks!

Summary: So while I don't really mind that the ratios of the fixed trainers change over time, I hope that they always give more or equals ranks than the basic trainers.

But then I also never saw a reason for the so-called stepped trainers like troilus. (afterall the ranking system is already stepped by itself!) So I wouldn't be surprised that case (x+y<1) actually exists. (if that happens to be the case with Eva, you better not tell me :)

Anyway, these are my thoughts about ranks. [:)]

Sargon

[Althus]

Swengus is the only way for 1st circle fighters to get balance, since letting them train direct Regia or Balthus would leave less new stuff to the 2nd circle fighters. It's also a decent ratio for increasing swings.

[Aerick]

When I started, I always figured that the balanced trainers would have a penalty, to compensate for the convenience. It was at least six months before I first spoke to Eva. Then I found out that they REWARD laziness. Nuts, I sure wish real life were like that.

[Konoko]

Althus, you mention that Swengus is the only way for 1st circles to get balance (as opposed to Regia/Balthus). What about Evus? Does not some Balthus come from that or not?

I have so far trained 0 swengus. It made the 2nd circle test interesting but I was kind of experimenting. I wanted a whole bunch of balance regen without having a bunch of balthus so I avoided training in swengus. If I remember correctly, my swings before I passed 2nd circle sucked. I think I had a pretty slow regen rate. (I was going to check my 2nd circle test movie but I'm having that same problem Sargon was reporting). Oh well - I think it was slow regen...

Anyways, it's much better now!
Thanks again everybody for all this info - very interesting!

Konoko

[Konoko]

Whoops - forgot to comment on Lai's post:

And Lai, how much histia does your fighter have? Maybe when I was told 150 detha it was more of a "you can probably pass with 150 detha but you'll get beat up by the rage"? Or maybe you have to have enough atkus to kill the rage before it kills you? Maybe the 150 detha is not a brick situation but more of a survivable amount? Just a guess.

I have been told by more than one person that 150 atkus and 150 detha should allow me to pass the test. But then I was told 50 atkus is enough for the 2nd circle test and I had to get like 65 and I still can't hit ferals enough to be profitable (hence that's why I wasn't in NF too often for Don't Blow It :)
Also, I have been told that a fen's atkus is lower compared to other races so that's probably why I needed the extra few atkus ranks...


Konoko

[Althus]

Konoko,

Overall, with "new" Evus, you lose swings, so I wouldn't really call him a balance trainer. He gives you balance, but it doesn't improve your swing rate, and actually lowers your number of swings.

Swengus, on the other hand, is a good way to gain swings even for 2

[Lex]

Konoko,

Fens get a Swengus bonus, which may be why you were able to pass 2nd without training it. I trained it a lot before I passed, but I also was using an axe at the time, and had to train Swengus to be able to use it effectively. However, I borrowed a greatsword for the test so I would whiff less (I had 50 Atkus when I passed, I think greatsword adds about 10 ranks). I also had my LV trophy equipped, which also adds a small Atkus bonus. I still can't hit ferels much, but I don't mind as I don't really want to hunt them anyway.

I am pretty sure that Fens also get an Atkus bonus (along with a Darkus penalty).

Lex

[Aethelred]

Responding to several posts, so bear with me.

Lex/Althus: there was the big Evus change to which Althus is referring, in addition both Eva and Evus have been many times since then. The last tweak that I was really aware of was a couple of months ago.

Sargon: the composite trainers that I know of who "add a bonus" (give more than 100% of a rank per rank) are Eva/Evus, Bodrus/Hardia, and Spirtus. The 3

[Aethelred]

BTW...the two biggest training screw-ups I made were studying a ton of Bodrus (I advise folks to stop at 50-60), and worse yet, NOT GETTING ANY DAMN HORUS!! Heck, I am still paying for that one...I have to hang my head in shame routinely as I SS for a healer to come help me raise a "quite" fallen.

Of course, they say that truly stupid people fail to learn from their mistakes. I do plan on maxing out Hardia in addition to my max Bodrus. I also will not be getting any specific Horus for another 200 ranks or so. I need an "emote" to put a big "L" on my forehead.

[Sargon]

Hi!

Aethelred: What's so wrong with getting Horus? :) I have about 50 ranks with him and I can heal considerably more fallens as compared to 0 ranks Horus. (I plan on getting 100-150 in the future so that I can heal LSW-fallens for sure, atm it's about 50%, probably less)

I guess the difference between 0 and 50 is more noticable than the difference between 300 and 350, simply because most fallens are not fallen that bad. Of course that's not that case in the Foothills. :)

As for reducing the number of times you have to SS for another healer, I recommend Loov'ma. :) [Although these chains are _expensive_!!! (YMMV)]

Sargon

[Konoko]

Thanks for all the advice everyone!
This has been a great thread for us fighter types!

Konoko

[Kiriel]

I think when I did the 3rd circle test I had 150 detha and 150 atkus and around 200 swengus. I'm not sure about the swengus amount, but whatever I had made the difference, because I was able to brick the rage pretty well on full, which made up for the fact that I only have about 50 histia. Of course the fact that I only have 2 swings meant that bricking and hitting well were very important in passing the test.

I tell all new 2nd circle healers that they should probably get about 50 horus. That seems to be a good base amount that doesn't steal too much from other trainers, and reduces the amount of quites significantly. My healer has recently decided that a 3rd circle healer should have 100 horus, so she's working on it :)

[Lex]

To throw something else into the mix...

I think a few of the trainers are more "mixed" than they let on, as Aethelred suggested Darkus gives Balthus. I'm pretty sure Atkus gives a small amount of Swengus, and Troilus also gives bits of some of the fighter trainers! But the amounts are so small they are hard to detect when you're message changes only every 50 ranks.

Based on different weapons I've used, and the added Atkus / Darkus properties of each, it seems that one rank of Darkus costs somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 as much balance as Atkus. So if there is a small Balthus element gained in the training, I can see how that would negate swing loss.

[Aethelred]

Sargon: There is nothing wrong with Horus! Unfortunately for me it is a time thing. So much to study, so little time. At present I am fixated on getting myself to 150 Proximus while also working on my basic Healer set of Eva-Respia. After I get to that Proxi point, I plan on knuckling down and getting 100 Horus (of course, I have said that in the past too...)

Kiri: I agree with your advice to younger healers. Get 50 Horus as soon as you can. It is hugely useful, and it is much easier and far more preferable to get it when ranks still come fairly quickly as opposed to waiting like I certain beer-soaked dwarf I could name...

[Aerick]

I am succeeding in meeting my training pledges. I decided that once I passed fourth, I'd first train Virgil, then bring my 10 Horus up to 50, and my 50 Proxi up to 100. THEN, I'll fix my Faustus:Respia ratio that I whacked a bit to get through the test.

Except I'm idly considering being a hog of Higgrus and Faustus. Take a lot of damage whenever I heal, but do that healing fast as all get out, and be able to soak the pain. I know I won't, but perhaps with a tertiary char.

[Aethelred]

You ever watch Firebird in action? He can't operate alone, but in a group setting that Faustus can be mighty useful. Of course, I could never bring myself to follow that training path *shudder*

You might consider an alternative to Faustus, Aerick. Work on your Sespus and go for Burst Heal with Merc Staff. Dump all that healing energy into them at once...

[Delirium]

I am currently working on getting to be a better student with Koric (Horus trainer). I am toes with Eva and Thuja (Respia). Now that Thuja has an Eva ledger too, I plan to do most of my training with her and Koric. My plan is to rotate between training in these 3 areas so I get the same training message in each. For the time being, though Horus will be a little behind the others. Also, after I finish my current training with Koric, I will take a break to learn to use my ring and learn some from Bodrus. I seem to not be changing trainers that often - I think I've changed about 9 times since I was exiled - a little less than once every 2 weeks.

I don't know wherther there is a bonus to using exile trainers or not, but it is so much more fun!

[Althus]

The balthus component in Darkus is such that with 100, you don't even loose 1 balthus swing, but definitely several regia swings. Atkus has much more Balthus, but also drains balance faster, so you do loose both Balthus and Regia swings very quickly.

Most higher level fighters tend to rely on Regia swings, though, and may only have 2 Balthus swings, because at that point it's more effective to counterbalance Atkus/Darkus with Regia and get Detha for defense.

[Lex]

Thanks, Althus. I guess with Darkus you're total swings stay the same but your recovery goes down. That's definitely good to know. And I also agree that Regia + Detha is better than Balthus... except for one thing. My slaughter rate didn't go up at all when I trained lots of Swengus / Regia / Balthus. But it did when I trained even a few ranks of Detha. I can still come out of the library and get a full rank in about 60-70 minutes if I am with a good group in a decently tough place. I see many high level fighters hunt for a while and not get a rank, and it's kind of scary. So I'm doing things that will keep my slaughter low while allowing me to build up things I'll need later. I'd like to get to toes with Skea while I can still rank quickly, for example.

I also kept my Histia low for the same reason. It seems to have worked. I had a little over 400 ranks before I slaughtered my first rat (almost 1/2 of them were non-fighter ranks). And I can't complain about how long it took me to pass 2nd.

Lex

[Althus]

The path to not slaugtering is Swengus and Atkus. Atkus is needed to hit things that you vanquish well, and swengus to suppport the Atkus and give you defence. If you keep 4 swings with lots of Atkus, not much Darkus, and decent regeneration you should be gaining ranks for a long time. I suggest hunting Noids (almost always a group there) and LP (Kiri and I get LP groups together occasionally now that the spawns are decent, you're welcome to join us) for the best rank whoring at your level.

[Lex]

Thanks. Noids is great, and LP is not too bad, although it tends to get empty pretty quick, if it hasn't already been hunted out when you get there. NBC, snaggy, DC, and savannah are also pretty good for someone my level.

I usually decide to train Atkus when there's something that I can't hit, but know I'm close, and I hunt it often enough that it frustrates me. A little more would probably help with things like ferels and such.

Definitely a good plan, the Atkus / Swengus thing.

[Kiriel]

The nice part about LP is it's very near town and has a convenient safe area, so you don't need as strong a group and rescues are faster. I also still vanq a lot of cave maha and I can hit them reliably- they're one of the few things in that category for me now. It's also near some decent coin whoring areas like NWF and NBC to hunt while waiting for a new spawn. For you the savannah maha are probably still good vanqs though. I get the occasional vanq at noids too, but it's a very bad place to hunt without a strong group, and things can get out of control very quickly because of the slide factor.

There is a nice sweet spot for fighters when you can still vanquish zerks and also hit them reliably. When you are in this sweet spot I highly recommend frequent trips to the zerk woods west of the voolcon area on DI- this place usually has a good 6 or 7 zerks and the voolcon area provides a comfortable retreat.

If I remember correctly, my training went 75 atkus, 100 atkus, 150 atkus, 200 atkus. They all seemed like good comfortable points for my method of hunting although I think maybe 180 atkus is about as useful as 200 atkus, although not as nice a round number.

[Lex]

Funny you should mention that, Kiri. I often go to woods on DI, and yes, that one snell is quite busy. I can also hit zerks well. One night in SF a bunch of us ran into a zerk, but I was the only fighter there (that wasn't a newbie), the rest were low level healers and mystics. I could always hit the thing but no one could brick it, so there was much falling (the mystics, in thier proud tradition, laid down first). As you said, LP is a good spot to hit right out of the library because it's so close.

[Kiriel]

Actually, I was thinking, the biggest problem with some of the more interesting hunting areas is the lack of spawns. Seems like scouting ahead is a good idea, but it's hard to collect a hunting group while scouting. One thought is for folks to start a scouting service. They could charge small amounts of coins in exchange for going ahead to check hunting areas and then letting the person who paid them know if it's worth coming out to hunt (and if they fall, it probably is :)

The perfect folks to provide the scouting service would be mystics and rescue healers between rescues, probably the same people who could use the extra coinage the most.

[Sargon]

Hi!

Lex wrote:
I can still come out of the library and get a full rank in
about 60-70 minutes if I am with a good group in a
decently tough place.

Someone please tell me that's a joke!? :) Haha, 1 rank in about 1 hour. I guess I have the wrong profession! [:)]

/action grabs some clan-exp from Mehan and runs away!

Sargon

[Farhope]

No, it is not a joke, Sargon.

But the "problem" (if gaining ranks is a problem for you) is your style to hunt/rescue/... + your training style, I think.

If you have a training aimed to have low slaughter as a fighter, it is easier than other style of training...
If you have a hunting style or habit as a fighter/healer (for example: hunting with group lot stronger than you for a fighter; hunting with a good group of new exile for a healer) that is aimed to tag a lot or receive lot of good share...

I don't mind to slaughter things and to gain no rank... it occurs very often now for me: if I hunt/explore alone or if I rescue/chain, I usually don't "kill/vanquish" anything. But is was also a choice: going alone + (very) poor training for not-slaughtering [low Atkus/high Histia/lot of no fighters skill].

I have slaughter my first bolok some days ago... and a bolok is still a problem for me: I can not "brick" it and I have sometimes difficulties to hit it :-)

[Sargon]

Hi!

It's not a problem at all, Farhope! Slaughtering boloks.. uh.. :) I've no idea what I would slaughter... maybe not a bolok but it could be close to one.

Sargon

[Lex]

Yeah, Sargon, that's one of the problems if you decide to be a rescue healer... often people un-share you after you leave. I try not to do this, but it's hard sometimes.

[Althus]

When I play my other healer (who rescues a lot), my policy is:

If they don't share, they must not need me that much, and thus can be forgotten about. Just sharing when you need help is kinda cheap, IMHO. If you have 5 healers and they're not enough, something needs to be rethought.

[Sargon]

Hi!

While I can understand your point, Althus, my "policy" isn't that strict. I can imagine that - given 5 share slots only - it can be hard at times for the fighter to decide which shares to keep.. Keep in mind that there are also mystics who don't mind if you share them, or special friends etc.

Sargon

[Aethelred]

I'm with Sargon on this pretty much. 5 share slots is hard to work with. The only semi-policy I have is when people refuse to share me while I am healing them. I will heal that person once, but if they still refuse to share me while I heal them I will simply no longer heal them until they correct the error. It isn't about ranks or coins or what have you, it is simply about common courtesy...if I did an action that directly caused a fighter to be seriously injured I would no doubt be sued. But many fighters (and yes, healers too! :mad: ) cause me serious injury by not sharing me, especially in a combat/hunt situations. To me, the only time when not sharing a healer who is working on you is acceptable is in the middle of a major invasion when things are simply happening too fast, with too many exiles involved, for keeping shares up to date to be manageable.

My personal rule of thumb is, of course, get the person healing me at present. Then people that are actually with my party. If I have a spare slot (and I usually do, since I prefer smaller parties of 3-4 exiles), I will then share a mystic or a rescue healer. One thing that those who do new exile hunts (myself included) probably should put some effort into is teaching the younger exiles share etiquette. More and more nowadays that seems to have gone by the wayside...

Not sure if my above thoughts made sense, but there they are...

Cheers,
Aethelred

[Althus]

It still seems a bit ungrateful to immediately unshare a rescue healer after they leave. My share priorities:

1. Group healers
2. Rescue healers
3. Friends
4. Group fighters
5. Random Mystics

Like I said: If you're having trouble getting by with 5 healers or more in your group, then maybe you should be hunting somewhere else.

[Lex]

What about rescue fighters? If I'm in the SF and a rescue is taking place there, sometimes a healer will SS "need fighter support". So lets say I go and clear junk or run stuff while the fallen are helped. Do I deserve a share? Personally I don't care, but I often get shares that disappear when I leave. I figure healers must get the same thing, but maybe it is specifically that I'm not a healer or mystic that they stop sharing.

I usually try to keep the last person who healed me on share for a while. Sometimes if I'm hunting alone I'll pass someone, and the extra heal really helps. Those times it's easy to keep them shared.

[Aerick]

I've started getting more and more uncompromising about healing fallen who don't share. Especially since my Respia is low right now, it hurts a LOT.

But I think a fighter sharing a healer is actually being pretty cheap. Especially if the fighter is coin whoring. Then they are getting the benefit of hunting solo (all the coins) and with a healer (getting picked up). I wouldn't say that the healer has a right to half the coins, but a fair bit of them.

It used to drive me nuts when a fighter would make a Sav ore run, get 3 ore and fall. I'd get them up, and get a share and a thanks. I was just as (if not more) crucial to the success of that expedition, and yet get a paltry fraction of the rewards of it.

It irks me sometimes. Not so much now that I'm not in desperate need of volumes of money, but there's a degree of inconsiderate-ness that chafes at me.


And Aeth, how are healers hurting you? It doesn't affect your speed or drain whether or not a healer you are healing is sharing. And since they kill nothing and slaughter everything, a healer share is a truly worthless thing. Except to mystics, and to alert of falling.

[Sargon]

Hi!

Aerick, oh yes it can hurt badly when fighters don't share while you heal them. Sometimes it's as if my life-energy drains faster than my spirit. *giggles* But that's also my fault since I've never got a single rank with Respia directly. (only thru Eva) Maybe in the future.. (as soon as Aethelred starts to train Horus [:)]

And I agree it's a funny feeling when you chain someone who dropped a zerk on you in SF in order to be in the trool mines faster than you, the guy gets both ores and your chain breaks while you chain him back to hospital where you can heal him and he doesn't share. Hey, as long as it doesn't happen every too often! :)

Sargon

[Aethelred]

Aerick...most healers actually hurt more to heal unshared (since we as a group tend to have far more Higgrus/Histia than equivalent fighters). Even on an unshared person I gain spirit, but I can really tell the difference in my health. I've only got about 100 Higgrus, so my Faustus can eat that up pretty quick with an unshared person.

As for money, I am ambivalent on that. I can make a decent chunk of change going to the plains with one fighter, and I am pretty far away from needing to make any more major purchases now that I have my cad, so as long as I can pay my library bills it doesn't matter as much to me. I figure that I have received enough good turns from healers in the form of unpaid rescues that I owe the world a few unpaid rescues myself. I also have a policy that I will not take money from people I consider friends, since I would go out of my way to rescue them anyway (of course, I am in no sense a rescue healer...my Horus is too weak for that, so I only do occassional bouts of rescue healing).

[Tater]

I'm in the same boat as Aerick as far as healer shares go--it makes no difference AT ALL as far as health loss and spirit regeneration are concerned. It's the same effect whether they're shared or unshared. The only time I experience faster health loss are if they're high Spiritus healers--that can be a drain.... But again, that's not affected in the least by a spirit link.

On the other hand, healing an unshared fighter does hurt me.... Normally I lose health while regaining spirit, but without a share I lose both steadily. It's frustrating at times, but I can't always fault them. It must be difficult, especially with extremely large hunting parties and the chaos involved, to have to constantly juggle those healer shares. I think one of the best macros out there for this type of situation is the "share cad" macro (or whatever it's called), but I suppose you could call me biased. =) I do think it goes a long way towards keeping a group up tho.... Fighters don't have to keep track of their side-bar messages as much to notice that they're being healed by a cadder and stop what they're doing to /share.

Hmm, I seem to be rambling. Guess I'll stop. =)

[Sargon]

Hi!

I don't know this macro but it sounds like it automatically shares a healer when it detects a cad message. While I can see its helpfulness I would _never_ use such a macro - YMMV. But I guess this is a completely other discussion so I stop. [:)]

Sargon

[Nuvali]

Sorry...still trying to catch up to all of the wonderful information, but I'm scratching my head on a comment, that you, Aethelred, posted earlier in the discussion:

"From the hunts that I have been going on of late, it sems that a 3

[Aethelred]

Actually, Nuvali, that statement comes mostly as a result of my personal and subjective preferences in where and how I like to hunt/explore.

I much prefer to hunt/explore in small to medium-small groups. 3-4 exiles for places like Noids, RC, TGBG and 6-7 for places like DC, DI Interior, and the Valley. In groups like that everyone tends to have to be very good at what it is that they do as you generally do not have a "junk specialist" or a designated "brick" or any of the other usual accoutrements for many larger hunts.

Now, the statement about 200-250 atkus comes mostly from the places that I PREFER to go, such as the DI Interior, Valley and KI. Without that kind of atkus, a fighter just won't be able to hit effectively and reliably and as such can actually slow down or even endanger a group as the kill waits for tags from low-atkus fighters. Even TGBG is a very good example of this...

Things such as the Fell Blade and Blood Blade can help here, and make a difference in battles, but only if they are used well and intelligently. Sadly, the majority of the holders of those weapons do not use them in either fashion, instead using them indiscriminately and causing more problems than they solve. My instinct therefore is to downplay the specialist weapons and rely instead on the exile himself.

I am not saying that low-atkus fighters cannot be effective, but you have to grant me the truth that a low-atkus fighter on Noth or KI is a drawback not a benefit. I am not trying to denigrate people, nor to dismiss their skills or accomplishments, but in the places that most 3

[Althus]

You're wrong about low-Atkus fighters on Noth and KI, Red. On Noth, everything up through a Sar'Noth is easily hittable with 100 Atkus, so low-atkus folks can be crucial for killing Vels quickly. On KI, the low-atkus people can still hit Valley Rats and Vultures, which is also very important to the group.

As far as waiting for tags goes, I'm really in favor of a more ruthless policy on non-newbie hunts. That is, no waiting for tags whatsoever unless the brick is staying white and it's a low spawn area. Healer tags should be taken only on things they vanquish, and the party should not wait for healers to tag. This way, everyone gains the most benefit.

As much as I hate missing tags in the Valley as my fighter (who has 110 Atkus), I find it even more annoying for the hunt to revolve around someone who is probably too weak to be hunting there.

[Nuvali]

Hmm....

[Nuvali sadly scratches Noth off his list of viable hunting grounds ... and TGBG ... and RC ... and interior DI ... and Valley, because he'd hate to be a nuisance and ineffective.]

Ok... I'm just a silly old man who really doesn't understand so many of these things, Red.

Aethelred:
"Things such as the Fell Blade and Blood Blade can help here, and make a difference in battles, but only if they are used well and intelligently. Sadly, the majority of the holders of those weapons do not use them in either fashion, instead using them indiscriminately and causing more problems than they solve."

Also, good sir, if you have time, please share your opinions on when specialty weapons should be used, how they should be used, etc.

Many thanks,

Nuvali.

[Aethelred]

You getting Wystii disease Nuvali?

Why in God's name are you taking my statement as a personal insult?

Fine, I apologize for feeling that 3

[Althus]

Nuvali: "Also, good sir, if you have time, please share your opinions on when specialty weapons should be used, how they should be used, etc."

I know I'm not 'Red, and I know you were being sarcasting, but what the hell, life's too short not to be a loudmouth. Since they stick on both exiles and beasts, they're very cumbersome to wield; since the balance tax further limits rapid switching, they're for very limited circumstances.

The Gossamer should only be used in solo situations, or at least I'd think that way. It reduces the ammount of balance taken on things you kill in one hit, so isn't really effective for group hunting, but can be great when surrounded in vermine.

The Fell Blade and Bloodblade, on the other hand, are only useful in groups, and should only be used in killing things that the group can't hit fast enough to eliminate without them. The fell blade saps balance like I'll get out, and the bloodblade is very risky to use healthwise. I saw a fell blade used to great effect today in the OOB when Gurgi attacked a Hatred from behind with it, and I've seen a bloodblade put to use by Shadrock in killing an Oak Giant (which nobody in the party could hit.)

IMHO, FWIW.

[Althus]

Another thing. Noth/Valley/KI/DI Interior (Drake Den, at least), aren't really places for 3rd circle fighters. They're 4th(DI/Valley), 5th (Noth), and 6th (KI) circle hunting grounds. If a 3rd circle fighter goes there and makes decent money and exp, great, but those places weren't designed with them in mind.

If you can get that nail hammered in with a screwdriver, good for you. I betcha there's a better tool out there, though.

[Nuvali]

MUST be OOC: Alright, I'll be a big mouth, too. I don't know a thing about the Gossamer (hell, I don't even know if I spelled it right). I've heard things. People have described all sorts of benefits and consequences related to it, but I don't have a single ounce of first-hand experience with it. Same thing applies to the blood blade. Not *A* clue.

But I *can* talk about the fell blade, and I can say that either your perspective on it requires more info, or that "another" character (that you control and has one) needs more training in it. In the hands of someone who has trained with it (50+ times), the fell blade is no harder on balance than an axe. In fact, as far as balance and recovery goes, it is gentler on your swing than an axe ... most of the time. I say "most of the time" because on very rare occassions, it forces the wielder to concentrate on the target's weak spot. I would guess (and it's just a guess--I'm not going to pretend to know more than I do), that as time goes on, the wielder will discover that this happens more frequently with creatures they are not adept at attacking. That's the bonus. But that's my theory. I could be wrong, but I do know that when Nuvali uses his fell blade--even on a regular (solo) basis--it is more effective (speed-wise, damage-wise, yadda yadda) than an axe or a sword or a dagger. Better than a Great Sword? Again, I don't know. I've never had the pleasure of owning one.

As far as hunting grounds go... I read Michael's bitch session in the NG about there not being enough third circle areas. I didn't buy it. I still don't.

Hand me the f&$*ing screwdriver.

[Althus]

I must admit my information about the fell blade is a bit sketchy. My fighter is still 2nd circle, so all of my information about these special weapons is 2nd hand. If anybody wants to talk to an expert in the various fields, the best ones I know are Crunch/Leogic (Gossamer), Gurgi (fell blade), and Althea/Aldernon (might not give you any info. Being the discoverers, they seem to be a bit snooty about it) or Hrothgar/Shadrock (my sources) for Bloodblade.

What I do know that applies to all of these weapons is that they are very sticky (even against other exiles, which causes a problem in groups) and that they are rumored to even make you stick in tight wilderness squeezes (like between two trees). I actually think Red was referring to the bloodblade when he talked about incorrect usage being a burden on hunting groups.

Though I've seen quite a few people do very poorly with bloodblades (Lursa comes to mind), I've seen even more people do well. When my fighter passes 3rd circle (hopefully some time this version, I hope I hope), I plan to specialize in all 3 of these weapons, so I'll have more data on them.

Regarding hunting grounds: Off the top of my head, for 3rd circle fighters there's the Rocky Cavern, Lilly Pond, Tree Giant Breeding Grounds (borderline 4th), Noids, Devil's (not Fire) Island (lava walkers and the occasional rage), the Chamelopod, River Tunnel, Savannah, LSW island on Kiss My Island (for a specific breed of 3rd circle fighter with high histia), Dark Chamber, Alchemist's Folly, Greymyr Village (if very careful), passes (no vanqs, but good kills/coins for early 3rd circle fighters), Northern Bear Caves, Snagglewood, Coliseum (heh)... the list goes on and on. If I had a hammer, I'd take it to these places first.

I'll shut up now.

p.s. You spelled Gossamer right, Nuvali.

[Nuvali]

I agree with your list, Althus...sort of. You're looking at this strictly 3rd circle, right? Unfortunately, it breaks down like this:

RC: Fantastic place until...blood wyrm (for high 3rd circlers or 4th circlers) or Sun (for 5th/6th circlers) shows up.

Lilly Pond: A great time if you're lucky to stumble upon it undisturbed. I've heard this might have changed recently, so I don't know....

TGBG: (See LP)

FI: Agreed. Great place. And here's the neat part--the *fun* part: third circle fighters *can* make a difference, even in the interior. Sure it's tough! But that's the point, right? Coming back to this (I'm sure you saw this coming ;-)

Chamelopod: Agreed.

River Tunnel: Rarely. Most mid to high 3rd circlers slaughter most big crawlers. Last time I was there (ooc: last week), the gallery consisted of green crawlers and a Sun Wyrm. Chalk one up for diversity.

LSW Island: I've seen more 4th circlers fall there than in the first snell of Noth.

Dark Chamber: (See LSW Island)

Alchemists Folly: Who goes there? When? I've always wanted to go, but schedule never worked out. I've also heard all this crap about it being one of those "unfinished" places. Not blaming anyone but myself--so don't argue that.

Greymyr Village: If you like rocks... or smoking them. (I'm kidding. I agree.)

Northern Bear Caves: Definately! One of the best balanced places in the whole game.

Snagglewood: If you're with a lot of people or with some upper 3rd or 4th circlers.

Colliseum: lol.

Althus, I really don't disagree with any of these places, but you have to understand that I couldn't REEEEEALLY care less about ranks or shares or any of that. I'm in it for the discovery, the story, and meeting so many interesting people (characters) with their own stories. That's my fun. Maybe it's not yours or Red's or anyone else's.

The Fire I interior mission was so much fun for two important reasons (my opinion):

1) Impossible! How the hell were we possibly going to make it!? But we did! So much excitement! Did we make it out? Nope. But I'll trade that sort of fun for 100 ranks per chance and a depart any day.

2) The People! No one gave up. Everyone refused to allow the ambiguous framework of circle tests to dictate their destiny. I'll trade that for another 100 ranks and a depart.

All I'm saying is that this play-it-safe-here's-your-spot-in-the-game-mentality is so damn shallow and is completely starved of imagination. Circle tests do *NOT* completely define a character's potential. Beware of assumptions. But I know (and I'm not being sarcastic), that you are much too smart to assume that sort of thing.

[Konoko]

I don't know much about the 3rd circ weapons but as I understand it, the fell blade is really just like any other weapon except on the occasions where a monster has its back to you. Then you are able to try going for its weak spot. I assume this takes more balthus but then you have improved atkus and damage...

That's what I've heard - again no first hand experience...

Konoko

[Althus]

I agree that ranks/shares/coins aren't the most important thing in the world, but there isn't enough story to discover out there to keep oneself constantly entertained (You need big groups for it, and I tend to be on at off-peak hours, and/or can't get a group together. That's why another one of my personalities joined LIFE). Thus some hunting (or logging off and doing something else) is required in the mean time. I personally enjoy hunting a lot, so that list comes from my views.

I also know that ranks aren't everything, which is why I put quite a few places on there that would make most people question my sanity. "3rd circle fighters? THERE? Don't make me laugh!"

RC: Sun wyrms are pretty easy to lure into the back, and blood wyrms are takeable as long as you have decent healer power. An average WoD clan hunt could take one, assuming either you or Kiriel was there with us.

LP: Joe turned up the spawns at my request. It's pretty decent hunting now.

TGBG: Haven't been there in ages, it may be different now. Used to be great, though, and my fighter bricks TGs with a backpack. (Though he can't hit 'em to save his life)

RT: I've seen LSWs, blood wyrms, grey wyrms, deadly crawlers, etc. there. YMMV.

DC: Most groups fall on entry, then get bailed out. Or at least that's how it's always been in my experience. After the bailout, the only requirement is decent healer power and being able to hit the things. (Possible with special weapons.)

LSW Island: It's possible, with the right tactics. (Stay near the edges, chain liberally, bring Horus, keep GCP off healers)

Alchemist's Folly: Join LIFE =D. Given that AF is a pet obsession of Yor, they'll probably be going there reasonably often.

Snaggy: A well organized group of mid 3rd circle'ers can do it, no matter how it seems. Furies may need to be Zu'd if nobody can hit 'em (needs about 200 atkus), but it's still possible to kill rages, locks, zealots, zerks, etc.

Play-it-safementality: Personally, I find it much more fun to go to a place slightly above my level and be challenged, then spend most of my time whiffing and falling in a place WAY above my level. If you happen to like that, reset and be a mystic. You'll get a lot of it done.

Circle tests: No, of course they don't. Lorikeet and Koric being prime examples. They deserve to be 4th circle, at least, but neither of them would likely re-pass 3rd. Cases of this, however, tend to stand out and. A character's circle isn't the end-all-be-all measurement by all means, but it does say a fair ammount about their abilities within their profession.

Good lord am I long winded

[Nuvali]

Ok... I know I'm coming off a little too idealistic, here, and the reason is simply my reaction to the sort of mentallity that I've witnessed over and over again. It's the mentallity of exclusionism. Yes... everyone has their right to try and make assumptions about the "roles" of other characters, but when I hear statements like "...a 3

[Althus]

Personally, I've never seen anyone be what I would call "ineffective" (Ok, well maybe when I tried to solo Noids... I think I tagged a Green, though!) What bugs me is if the group has to wait 5 minutes for people to tag one creature that they may or may not even vanquish. Besides falling a lot and demanding to be raised, that's one of the most burdensome things a fighter (or healer or mystic) can do to a group.

I went to the valley as my 2nd circle fighter once, and was just about as bored as I could be whiffing things and falling, just to get the occasional vanquish. I went back a bit later as a strong healer and had a blast! My point in this is that if someone is nowhere near strong enough for an area that the group is clearly JUST HUNTING, they won't have much fun. (Note: Your definition of fun may vary.)

So I wouldn't really lump low-atkus fighters together as "ineffective," or a "burden". It's just when the group waits for them endlessly that it causes trouble. (Think newbie hunt in NF)

[Nuvali]

I don't disagree at all with anything you just said Althus. Not even a tiny bit. There's a certain degree of "reasonability" that I'm assuming most people who play this game, have. Not all. But most.

Of course a fighter might join a group in an area that is way over their head. Can they have purpose? If they are smart--yes. If they know their limitations--yes. But let's face it! How does anyone learn what their limitations are, until they push the envelope? Worse, yet, how WOULD any player discover the boundary of their potential if every other player used some ambiguous questionaire like "what circle are you?" or "how much atkus do you have" or...you get the point. Yes... reasonability and respect. I don't disagree with those notions. But I have a problem when people go half-cocked and start making assumptions about the usefulness of any character via preconceived standards.

[Nuvali]

I don't disagree at all with anything you just said Althus. Not even a tiny bit. There's a certain degree of "reasonability" that I'm assuming most people who play this game, have. Not all. But most.

Of course a fighter might join a group in an area that is way over their head. Can they have purpose? If they are smart--yes. If they know their limitations--yes. But let's face it! How does anyone learn what their limitations are, until they push the envelope? Worse, yet, how WOULD any player discover the boundary of their potential if every other player used some ambiguous questionaire like "what circle are you?" or "how much atkus do you have" or...you get the point. Yes... reasonability and respect. I don't disagree with those notions. But I have a problem when people go half-cocked and start making assumptions about the usefulness of any character via preconceived standards.

[Althus]

I'm also making a huge assumption that by the time somebody passes 3rd circle, everyone has a basic idea of where they stand. If you don't know your limitations well by that time, and if your hunting buddies don't know them, then there may be some serious communication problems which will screw up the hunt regardless of what circle/race/profession/hair color you have. If someone trains freakishly enough to be strong for their circle but unable to pass the next one (the only point at which rank-wise capability really differs from circle), I think they either spend their time in the library, or everybody knows them pretty well by that time. A good set of examples of this would be Frozen Shade and Crunch, who take forever to pass circle tests, but are undeniably incredibly useful.

By the time the entirely average exile passes 3rd circle, they've been around for at least a year (or week in the case of Michael). By that time if they don't know their limitations, abilities, strengths, and weaknesses well enough to describe them to everyone else in their group, they should probably go back to the library and sulk for another year. (Where they've likely been the whole time)

[Althus]

I still think "how much Atkus do you have?" and "how well do you brick such-and-such a beast?" do have their place. For example: It's possible for a Zo to pass 3rd circle with 120 Atkus. If from that point on, they trained pure Detha, they would be really useful as a brick, but I'd never dream of asking them to "kill that TG on my back", which a good number of more "average" 3rd circle fighters would have absolutely no trouble doing.

But again, this only really comes into play with off-the-wall training styles, which, by their very nature, are selected against in the "survival-of-the-strongest" world of day to day hunting.

[Aethelred]

(Nothing like belated replying...)

I know Nuvali still will think I am being a Michael or Gurgi Junior (which could not be further from the truth), but I have to stand by what I said. Now take that from my persepctive: the main thing that I really find fun in Clan Lord is exploring. As my skills have grown, so has my ability to explore. Finally I reached the point where I could really get myself to the new areas and be a part of the hard-core exploring effort. To be honest, that is the main reason that I joined LIFE - pure hunting does not interest me for its own sake, but exploring does. With LIFE I get to be with a group of people that share my interests and goals, and explore some of the most difficult and dangerous areas in the island chain. Now, the areas that we choose to explore are just too difficult to bring low-skill characters to. Everyone that goes has to contribute to the overall effort, and not be along as a sightseer. That means a certain level of skill and experience in order to participate.

Am I an elitist? By your lights I am, but by my own I am just trying to make sure that the effort in which I labor has the best chance of success. I will admit that I have become a bit spoiled. I am used to being with Yor/Elenis/Entil'Zha/etc... when I am in difficult areas, and I am fairly certain that I don't want to go back to worrying about whether or not someone can actually hit a Rage or a Fury or a Wrath before I call out to them to kill the one that is killing me.

Aethelred

[Nuvali]

Originally posted by Aethelred

I know Nuvali still will think I am being a Michael or Gurgi Junior (which could not be further from the truth)....First, what *is* a "Michael" or "Gurgi Junior", and how are you able to homogenize them into one group? Second, how can you possibly *know* that my varying opinions of them match your generalization of them (as a group)? Finally, Red, what is *your* generalization of Michael and Gurgi, and how does that opinion suddenly become my opinion?

Now take that from my persepctive: the main thing that I really find fun in Clan Lord is exploring. As my skills have grown, so has my ability to explore. Finally I reached the point where I could really get myself to the new areas and be a part of the hard-core exploring effort. To be honest, that is the main reason that I joined LIFE - pure hunting does not interest me for its own sake, but exploring does. With LIFE I get to be with a group of people that share my interests and goals, and explore some of the most difficult and dangerous areas in the island chain. Now, the areas that we choose to explore are just too difficult to bring low-skill characters to. Everyone that goes has to contribute to the overall effort, and not be along as a sightseer. That means a certain level of skill and experience in order to participate.Ok.

Am I an elitist? By your lights I am....

I don't think you are elitist. I just think you have a faulty propensity to make sweeping assumptions about me (and maybe others, as well).
I will admit that I have become a bit spoiled. I am used to being with Yor/Elenis/Entil'Zha/etc... when I am in difficult areas, and I am fairly certain that I don't want to go back to worrying about whether or not someone can actually hit a Rage or a Fury or a Wrath before I call out to them to kill the one that is killing me.
That's your playing style, and if it's fun for you, great!

[Maxmillian]

Ok, I'm going to stick my tail into this discussion knowing full well I may end up looking like a bobcat. :-) Nuvali, Aethelred, I agree and disagree with both of you to a certain extent. Personally, I believe that anyone on a hunt has a purpose and can effectively do that, even if that person is not strong enough to be a major part. I also think that if someone can't tag without a luck hit, then time should be given, but not unlimited time. The amount of time should be dependant on circumstances, of course. If the thing you are trying to tag, is mauling the person bricking, then it should be taken out with all speed. If it is being successfully bricked, then time should be allowed, but not unlimited time. The person trying to tag SHOULD realize that he/she won't hit it without a luck hit, and just let it be taken out. Indulge me while I relate a personal tale to illustrate.

Way back, when I was a fairly new exile, I went with Tater to an OC raid. This was back before the full moon raids. When we got there, I jumped right into the front lines in the campfire snell, and promptly got fried to the point it took multiple healers to raise me. Once raised, I dove right back in and proceeded to fan the orga so they didn't overheat while pounding on the fighters. ;-) I realized that I had no business trying to hit the zerks, and higher orga, and that by tying up a space at the orga, it was just taking longer to take them out, and putting other exiles at risk. So, I decided that I needed to fall back on the teachings of my 2 mentors at the time. (Hiro, and Nuvali, for the record) I saw that the healers were in the back of the raid, but that their backs were open to spawns around the campfire, and no fighters were back there to guard them. I was taught that you should protect the healers at all costs. By staying behind the healers and guarding their backs, I got plenty of exp, and also the thanks and good karma from the healers. Even if I fell, I tied up the critter long enough to get a stronger fighter over to kill it, and I was still raisable by one healer. I did that several times to death vermine that night. But none got through to the healers, and I'm proud to be able to say that. I feel that my contribution, while not at the front helping move us forward, was just as important as the work done by the fighters clearing the way into OC2 and beyond. From what I was told, the healers thought so, as well.

The point I'm trying to make, is that even though a person may not be strong enough to help move forward, he may be able to help keep the back clear so that the healers are safe, and the path of retreat is open if it becomes necessary. Even if it's just tying something up long enough to fall, but buy a few seconds time for someone else, they have made an effective contribution. By the same token, though, they need to realize their own limitations, and conduct themselves accordingly. And that seems to be something that many exiles just don't seem to realize.

Just thought I throw my LOOOOONG 2 coins worth into the ring.

Maxmillian

P.S. I'm also one of those 300+ ranks before making second circle, fighters. hehe

[Nuvali]

Very well put, Max. I completely agree. :-)

[Maxmillian]

Don't get me wrong, Nuvali..... I agree with Aethelred to a point, too. I really had no business being in OC, especially trying to be in the front. If not for the junk, and the healers, I would have been useless, except as cannon fodder, and a nuisance to the others there that could handle the stuff. Some places don't have that necessity for a junk clearing person, and if that had been the case in OC, I shouldn't have been there. The key is recognizing the situation and area, and knowing if you have a valid reason to be there, or if you are just trying to luck hit stuff way over your head. Kinda like me on 'Noth or Valley would be. Personally, I don't think I have any business being at either place at this stage in my training, even though I could maybe clear junk. I could also fall so badly that I would have to be taken back to town, and would thus spoil the hunt for at least the chainer. I wouldn't be effective in that situation. I shouldn't be there, period. Not yet, anyway.

[Nuvali]

No, Max, I do agree with what you are saying, and I do agree *to a point* with what Red said. See my quote to Althus, a ways down:

<i>"There's a certain degree of "reasonability" that I'm assuming most people who play this game, have."</i>

My complaint--my reaction--really stemmed from Red's comment that "a third circle fighter needs a minimum of 200-250 atkus to be truly effective and consistent." I didn't buy that idea, and I still don't. I'll say it again... "reasonability and respect."

Is it reasonable for a first circle fighter to go to Noth? Probably not. Is an exile being respectful and reasonable if he/she *expects* a group to wait a long period of time (or short--depending on circumstances) for him/her to tag? Probably not. What you described are reasonable and respectful rules of engagement. And I think you also pointed out--very clearly--when a lower level exile can be useful (sometimes) in higher level areas.

On the flip side, I *love* surprises. I love it when a less experienced character somehow manages to turn the tables in a battle (via luck or other means). It rarely happens, but when it does, it's the stuff of legends! Those sorts of events consistantly force me to reshape my definitions of reasonablity and respect.

I think, originally, this debate started with an extreme statement. I reacted to it with equally extreme idealism. Max, I think you brought it to a more appropriate place in the middle.

[Maxmillian]

Nuvali, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. :-) (looks with relief at his still attached tail, but knows Aethelred hasn't said anything yet.... hehe)

[Lex]

Just to throw this back into the mix:

After training about 30 ranks of Darkus, my swings went from about 4 1/3 to barely squeaking out a 4th swing.

Lex

[Lex]

Since I just can't resist... let me give you an idea of how I do in these places, as a 2nd circle fighter with about 65 Atkus.

RC: Not even worth going. I do go sometimes because I'm with a strong group but I only luck tag.

Lilly Pond: I can hit SF when they are trapped and swing out, so I gotta get in there and take the hits. CMR are hittable, so are LSW, but I could never go without a healer.

TGBG: They take so long to kill I usually have time to luck hit without pissing people off :)

FI: One of my favorite places, it's really for all levels.

Chamelopod: I hit pods well, but forget about standing up to one, they kill me quick. If I go with a couple of good bricks and healers I can do very well.

River Tunnel: I don't go there much but crawlers are not a problem if we don't get hit by more than one red at a time. If wyrms are there I need to be with stronger group.

LSW Island: I stepped onto the isle once with 3 other fighters when there were 6 or 7 LSW there and didn't get hit once. I tagged all but one of them. It's not so bad with the right tactics.

Dark Chamber: Wonderful place but I need healers. I can hit faithless and wraths easy, death furies and wailing spirits need a few whacks, and GW are not hittable. Everything's a vanq, but I need healers with me, and of course I only go with a strong group.

Alchemists Folly: Neveer been there, but it's on LIFE's agenda.

Greymyr Village: I can't hunt myr but I've gone with groups and took care of NW while they killed myrs. It was fun.

NBC: I can go there with folk my level, 3 fighters and at least one healer (2 would be nice), and do very well. 3 chocos at once and we'll probably die, but it's not too often that it's that bad.

Snagglewood: As long as you have one person that can handle a fury, or a few that can kinda handle it, you'll be okay. I honestly take more damage from shamans than anything else.

Noth: I can hit the lesser ones well enough and I get the occasional tag on the bigger ones, that I do just fine there. Of course, again I am with a stronger group but I seem to get by without feeling out of place.

Savannah: I barely hit PMR but with enough people it's doable.

OOB: I've been there a lot lately and it's choc full of lower orga as well as the super ones, so there really is a lot for me to do. During a recent trip we attacked and killed a hatred. I was honestly hitting it more than most because it was luck tags for everyone, but with my good Regia I had more swings than many people.

Of course, I'm lucky enough to get invited to places like this, but they are not so bad if you know what you're doing :)

Lex

[Goric]

Quite a discussion yall have going here. I should have joined it long ago.

As for me...I still hold a 2nd circle belt.

aa thinks that belts are only good for holding ones pants up!!

I dont even try to pass the test. I dont really care what circle I am. I do admit that I have had troubles with my training so there is a certain amount of a feeling of inadequacy.

I barely get 2 swings!! Something I am working on. But then I see others hitting with more powerful blows, so then I train Darkus for a while and my swings get worse again.

I didnt read all the postings. There are so many!!

I did read something about newbies fighting in places where they should not be and such as that.

I agree with this. Nothing anoys me more than being in an difficult area, like Noth, and some new fighter as joined us that has no business being there!! When I was new, I would never have dreamed of going to such a tough area.

A newbie in such a place not only slows down the rest of the group, but also jeapordizes it. One mistake by a new 1st circle fighter on Noth can bring down an entire hunting party!!

And the qustion is; why was that 1st circle fighter there anyway? He or she cant hit anything. He or she might be able to luck hit something. Maybe. Its probably that the 1st circle'er wants those shares and possible tags and can gain ranks faster than normal.

It seems to me that this is very selfish on 1st cirle'ers part. He or she is putting the party at risk just so they can hopefully hit something.

Of course, if the party decides ahead of time that this hunt is for the benefit of Newbies, then that is a different story. Though I would pick something much less dangereous than Noth.

Assigning certain areas though to certain circle fighters is wrong!!

I still have not been to the Foothills. I have heard that it is very tough so I do not go because I do not wish to put a hunting party at risk. Well, that and the fact that I have never been invited. Im not very good and might not even be able to hit stuff there.

I heard that Gurgi was taking hunting parties there. But I also heard that he would only allow folks to go that were of a certain circle. While I aggree with this policy to a point, I dont aggree with it being a hard fast rule. I was quite angry when I heard of this policy

There is a very thin line between a party that is in a all-out hurry and wishes to wack everything in sight as fast as they can, and a party that is in it more for the fun and the socialization.

Personally, I prefer the later party. I rarely go out with huge parties. I dont like the impersonal dynamics of such a party. I prefer to hunt with people that I know and trust and have a relationship with.

But I also love to hunt with new folks and just let them wack away!!

Sir Goric