Circles, Ranks, and where one is "allowed" to go

[Delirium]

This really continues the discussion in the fighter training thread, but that one has gotten so long with many different subjects.

Anyway, I really dislike the snobbery that says things like "only 3rd circle or higher should be in this place." Once, after I felt I had outgrown the rat towers, I saw a fighter there who I thought had come into the lands before me running around there. I thought he was probably rank-whoring, so I decided to tease him a little about being in the rat towers. But it turned out that he was sticking to the town and farms because he had been told off by some healer for falling in a place that was "too difficult for him." I think that healer should have their moonstone revoked. Not only did that healer put a damper on that fighter's enjoyment, but mine as well, because I enjoy a good rescue[;)] .

I've heard some complaints that there are no new interesting low to mid-level areas, or at least not enough. As a newer player to the game, it does as times seem frustrating that many of plot-lines appear aimed at the 4th-circle and above crowd, and many in that group do not appear open to having 1st and 2nd circle types participate in an active role. I'd love to see a quest the required a newbie to complete, but then, one of the established characters would probably generate a throw-away character rather than invite a true newbie.[:(]

Although there are probably enough low and mid level areas, some of these areas are effectively removed from circulation by uber-bricks like Gurgi and Elenis, who brick there for newbie shares. You could say they are providing a service for the newbies, but Undie hut, for example, could be an interesing place for a group of 1st and 2nd circle types on their own, if it were not almost always occupied by a brick. Then, the areas that are challanging for a low/mid level group and provide coins are over-hunted by high-level coin-fighters who slaughter everything there. Several times I've been with groups in tha passes having a great time with a group when 1 or 2 coin fighters appeared, killed everything, and ended our hunt there. I will say that most high-level figters do turn back when they see a group, but a sufficient number don't and so many a mid-level hunt is spoiled. More mid-level areas might help in reducing the number of times such things occur, but then, some people will always be rude.

Obviously, the whole thing is very complex and there are no easy answers. More interesting low-level areas would be nice, but if they are too interesting they will get over-run by high-level types. In any case, telling someone "no, you are not allowed to go there because you don't hav enough ranks or are not of the appropriate circle," is just plain wrong. On the other hand, if you are getting a group together for a difficult place, you should tell it like it is, either "You are free to join us, but we are probably all going to wind up departing" or "We can't stop you from following us, but the place we are going is very difficult and we will be pushing our skills to the limit, so won't be able to keep you from falling, and if you do fall, we may have to leave you behind to acomlpish our goals." In other words, explain why you don't want a particular person in your group. If you are a member of this clan, you should follow this up with a pointer to the WoD events page for the next newbie hunt.....

Hmmm... perhaps I should schedule one, but my schedule is a bit in flux right now, so that is hard....

Enough rambling for now

[Kiriel]

Personally I think that circle levels are a lot less useful for pegging an exile's abilities than their skill in specific areas. About the only thing 3rd circle really tells you is that the person most likely has 150 atkus or really high darkus. I'm currently a medium-to-high atkus fighter based on what I've seen (many 3rd and 4th circle fighters don't seem to go above 200 atkus) but low histia, low darkus, low swings, and medium defense. This means that although I'm ideally suited for some "3rd circle areas" and do decently in some "4th+ areas" I also suck pretty hard at others that are supposed to be at my level or below. Anything which hits really hard, takes a very large amount of hits to kill, or requires more than 200 atkus is really too much for me without a good group.

I use my skill levels at various things to tell me where are good places for me to hunt. I love the LP and savannah, and have a good time on FI and bears. However, I really don't find hunting in the passes very good because I slotter most white wendies now and they take a lot of hits for me to kill with my low darkus and swings, and they sap my health fairly quickly with the occasional luck hits.

That being said, I love to on occasion go to the high level places, even if I don't hit things that well. I try not to be a burden to the group by not taking risks unless we're in a very strong tactical situation (i.e. I won't put myself in a position to get hit where I'm likely to fall unless most of the folks are very healthy and we're doing well healerwise). I don't complain when I don't get in a tag (except I will sometimes ask folks to leave me tags on the easy stuff if I vanq it and they slotter it)- after all, I'm there for the fun, not the rank whoring. I find that trips to places like the valley and UI are exciting for me just because they're places I rarely get to go, and because they require more challenge and coordination. I think it's a good idea for folks to occasionally go to places that are perhaps too hard for them to get a feel for them, see some new areas, and test their limits, but they always have to remember that they're there to learn and experience, not to slow down the group by waiting for every tag.

I do think occasionally that folks tend to be selfish by going out and putting themselves in situations they know they're probably not going to be able to survive, and not bringing healer support. I'll do it on occasion when I'm feeling really adventurous, but I generally try to let someone know where I'll be, I always tip the healer for coming to my rescue, and I don't act as if it's my god given right to be rescued in 10 minutes even though I was stupid in the first place. I think that some healers probably get frustrated because a lot of folks really don't think about things, and do tend to be rude to the folks who went out of their way to help them, only to have them fall again 2 minutes later after they've left and the fighter has dropped their share. I think it's an exile's perogative to take risks, but they do need to be considerate of anyone who's helping them after those risks led to them falling.

Regarding things like bricking, I don't think it's that bad. A lot of folks really do want to get through that phase in their exile quickly, and rank whoring in the undine hut is a tradition dating back since before I first arrived. Undine are great for practicing tactics against, and it's sometimes difficult for new exiles to get a critical mass for a hunt without a brick organizing the affair. I also think those events are a great way for new exiles to form friendships, and after the undine hunts I think they often go off together as groups to hunt. There are actually a lot of places that are good for a fighter at the undine vanquishing level to hunt, so having undine as a bricking paradise isn't that big a problem.

I think as a new exile it's good to have folks who escort hunts, to give them a sense of what's out there and what their training priorities might be (if you just hunt in the rat towers you'll get a skewed perspective of what's important in a fighter). It also helps newbies to not get bored with the areas that they can hunt in, especially if they have trouble getting a group together.

Regarding the coin whores ruining 2nd circle hunting grounds, I agree wholeheartedly, and I haven't the faintest idea how it could be solved. I do recommend more investigation of the island areas, which are less crowded than the rest of Puddleby, but even they are getting kind of busy with people now. Last few times I went to Fire Island I ran into parties, which never used to happen. Luckily it's a big island so it can hold a few parties before getting hunted out, and when it's empty there's always Orionwood, Tenebrion's Isle, and Ash. I have mostly given up on hunting savannah because it seems that every time I get a party together for there, someone else is already there and has killed most of the maha, or someone shows up and kills them all shortly after we begin. Since the savannah requires some decent coordination to get a party together this is a big problem (it's not as big a problem at LP since you can tell easily if a party is there and it's near other good hunting grounds).

I often have low level friends or mystics who want to come hunting with me in an area which is probably above their level. I usually inform them of the standard stuff (you'll have difficulty hitting, I can't brick these so we can't hold long for tags, etc.) but I'll always take them unless it's not my hunt to invite people to. Often if I'm without a healer I will say that I'll be happy to take them, but they need to find a healer to bring because they will need one there. This seems to work pretty well and it takes some of the onus off of me for party forming when I was just going to go by myself or with a small group.

[Lex]

Del, consider this situation:

You are on your way to a hunt in the north plains. On the way, you stumble upon a fallen newish exile (who was exploring alone) and give them a hand. After you get 2 or 3 snells farther they fall again, which you know because they're sharing. You go get them, then it happens again.

Obviously you can't put off your hunt to go around with them, people may be expecting you. But I hate to leave people laying there, and SS'ing "fallen EF" almost always gets no response, even if you specify the snell (which may have changed since you last saw this person).

The problem is with the wording. Telling someone "don't go EF" isn't very nice, nor is it credible, since EF could be considered a "newbie" place. A little better would be to explain why it's better to take someone, or how to not swing out, or when it's smart to run. Often, people just don't have time for this, or don't want to take the time. Not to mention the backlash of attitude often received when giving unsolicited advice. Sometimes people just get a little frustrated, and it's unfortunate that your friend clung to that for so long, hopefully that's not the case with most new exiles.

As far as hunting areas being hunted out, as Kiriel said, there's not much you can do. Luckily I'm at a stage where I'd rather see 2 GV and an IP in a SF snell than 3 artaks and a bolok, so areas like that are still OK for me if I'm alone or in a small group. I can see hoe bigger groups would have problems, especially considering I sometimes one-hit LV, it's not always easy for a big group to share kills.

I really think undine is not as often occupied as you might think. I go there sometimes just to see how badly corpe warriors beat me up this week, and there's usually no one there. But I agree, it's a great place for people our level to hunt with no brick needed (provided there are a few of us and we're not careless). I guess that's the real attraction to brick-led hunts... you can be careless and not suffer the same consequences as without a brick, or a 4th circle healer, etc. It's fun to hunt where at any time it may be you that makes the difference.

I really think it would be great if one of the "unoccupied" islands was turned into a big version of the SF. Maybe 10x10 or something, with a few safe spots, maybe a "trend", like how there is more creature density near the mirror. I try not to take the attitude "gimmie gimmie" with the GMs, I guess it just doesn't seem to hard of a thing to come up with. Then again, maybe there are already plans for those islands.

[Delirium]

I don't really object to bricking, per se, it is just that it removes what could be an interesting 2nd circle (or high 1st) hunting ground from circulation. But I don't do Undie hut much now and probably woudn't even if it were available without a brick always there, mostly out of consideration for Luna, who I hunt with frequently.

[Delirium]

Lex posted while I was making my reply. Anyway.....

I am not 100% certain of my memory, but I think the fighter in question was Boris, who usually seems careful (I haven't seen him in a while, though), and the place he was told off for falling in was within a few snells of town (like the beaches or East Field).

I don't want just another South Forest (or a bigger one) - I'd like something different and more interesting to explore.

[Lex]

I agree, something new and interesting is preferable. I just meant that it's probably the GMs have enough on their list that they could easily do this, rather than take months to come up with a small, unique area with new stuff.

Plus what is frustrating is that even if the myrm hive got a new snell, there are enough 4th circle fighters who like to explore that would go there and pretty much know everything and hunt everything before you and I could get a few friends and go. There's just no way for a new(ish) exile to really discover anything.

As far as undine go, I wouldn't ask Luna to go with me, but what if I was opposed to hunting IPs, or wendies. Would you stop? For example, Jo Ma'ril doesn't kill T'rool. When people have a philosophy I try to respect it when I'm with them, but there are just too many philosophies that I would never go hunting again if I listened to them all. Plus, eek! Undine are just about the worst thing around.

[Aerick]

I remember being told I didn't belong. I was first circle, still all tan, and in the Northern stretch of North Forest. At night. Feral took something like a quarter of my life per chomp.

When Thadius finally came and fixed me, he told me that I wasn't allowed to be alone in North Forest at night until I had a 'bajillion Higgy' or some number like that. I figure he musta meant 50 or so. =)

Seriously, though, there is some unfriendliness to new exiles. Even though most of it isn't meant to be mean. I bet most of it is just powerful exiles tired of explaining things to new exiles, and being in too much of a rush, and so being short and not helpful.

Someone should make a clan to work against that trend, huh?

[Lex]

Yes, I agree telling someone not to go to the east field is pretty lame. Maybe he was very new. But I must admit I've been tempted when I've seen very new exiles go there, and there were a bunch of DS in the area (which I still have trouble with), to give them some kind of warning. Like I said, sometimes it just comes out all wrong.

[Lex]

LOL Aerik

Seriously though, you guys do a decent job, it's just too hard to track down new exiles and point them to your web page, and when you do who knows if they'll read any of it.

[Mehan]

Wow. Boris??

He is such a sweetheart!! He was the first person I met in the lands. He took me hunting, and I found him to be an excellent hunter!!

Damn that annoying healer!!

Aye, Deli. I haven't seen Boris in such a long time. I miss him terribly [:(]

[Delirium]

Actually, I think we may be about to get a new low-to-mid-level area in town - the expansion of the tunnels. I know the 4th level fighters will be in there before we can blink an have the whole thing mapped, but after they do that, they will be bored with it and leave it to us lower-level types. And exploring the tunnels was really fun when I was new. I remember taking Lex in there when I had about 100 ranks and she had 10-20 ;-) (now she's probably got 100 more than me! I *never* manage a rank an hour!)

[Lex]

I'm sure you don't get ranks as fast as a fighter your level, but ranks are different for fighters and healers (profession ranks anyway). It seems that a healer can be 4th circle in 1/2 the ranks it takes a fighter, so technically fighters getting ranks twice as fast are somewhat equivalent.

The tunnels could be interesting if they actually have more than just dead ends and skels. It would be cool if they led somewhere, like one that came out in OBC, etc.

[Aerick]

goodgod! I thought you said that one of the paths should lead out into OOB (Orga Outback) Seemed like a cruel trick to play on new exiles. Heck, so does OBC (which I prefer to call SBC -- SOUTH Bear Cave).

[Lex]

I was thinking about that too. I'd hate to have 10 ranks and run into bears, but maybe there could be a PF requirement so that you don't stumble into it, just like there's a small one now to get into the tunnels from under the west rat towers.

Hmm... a tunnel from town to OOB. That could be interesting, but we'd end up with wraths and hatreds invading through that path :(

[Aerick]

OOC: A good invasion never hurt anyone, and is lots of fun.

But a path to the Bear Caves could happen, it would just need a 'filter'. A cave with a whole mess of deadly adders or something that really new exiles just can't get through.

I'm told that that is the true function of Bloodhawks, and N of meadow being messy. It's a little test and warning that, if you can't handle that, you REALLY shouldn't proceed any further.

[Aethelred]

Hrm...I realize that this is an old thread, but I figured I would post some thoughts anyway...

First, as to Delirium's theory that exiles should never be told that they cannot/should not go someplace as it is above their level I have to say that there are times where telling someone this is necessary. I do like to take younger exiles to new places, and I think with sufficient forethought and preparation (an escorting healer and/or fighter) they can go almost anywhere. But definitely NOT everywhere. I will give you some examples of areas where I would refuse to take or accompany someone under 3

[Liolel]

As I first circle I have to say that despite me being the ones who miss out from tougher hunting grounds I have to say its good to a extent. I wemt to Dal'noth through the mirrors on wild thursday and its a madhouse. I first circle going there for a real hunt would be crazy. As upsetting as this policy is to some people it seems not to matter as must of the areas you are not supposed to go you couldn't do anything there anyways.
Now before you think I support it I don't like it. But then again I'm not the one chasing after me to rescue me when I fall. I went to NF today and ferals were a big pain. I couldn't fight but I was with someone who could kill them. He didn't mind and I think we both had fun.
My final opion is that this gets unfair after a point. So if you aren't going to let newbies hunt on dal'noth its ok with me. If you arn't going to let them hunt in the forests its not ok. That is my opion.

[Althus]

I'd just like to point out that Noth thursday was 100x tougher than it has EVER been normally. Not even a party of 6th circle fighters and Thuja/Axells could hunt there without a LOT of trouble. Also, while NF may have been fun for you, at newbie level, it's not for most people. Having been through newbiedom 7 times, I feel I can accurately attest to this.

I also know that in a big group, it's sometimes a pain to wait for the last mystic or 1st circle to get their tag on a feral, which is why I normally don't go on newbie hunts in NF/Fringe. My stance on what groups should do about this is as always:


Normal hunting (the majority of the time):
If you want to come and try to hit things, you're welcome to and nobody will complain, but we're also not going to hold anything too much longer than normal. If you find you're not having fun, we'll gladly escort you to somewhere you can get home or pick up another group safely.

Newbie hunts:
Of course we'll hold things for tags, since that's the whole point of the hunt, but we probably won't be hunting anything that we really need to wait for everything on.

[Liolel]

Let me clear up something. I was mainly just watching. I wasn't tryig to tag and wasn't being waited for. I had fun yes. Did I gain much no. The point is that as long as you don't hold up the group I think that its fine. The point of a game is to have fun and if thats someones idea of fun and it doesn't bother anyone they should be able to do it.