Secrets

[Aerick]

I'm torn. I was thinking about PM, and how uncool it was of them to find the Foothills, and not tell anyone.
But then I thought about how nifty that was. And then I considered how awesome it would be if Pathfinding were still a skill that only a few had access to, and the population at large didn't know how to do it.

Wouldn't it be neat if quests were to be figured out. So instead of saying "Oh, I'll be an alchemist, I'll pop on over and follow the steps to get a bowl" you actually had to figure it out. Maybe that's what the mystic class was designed for, but it just has such a strong appeal to me.

Of course, since others do like to figure things out, spoiling surprises isn't nice at all. So, what are people's feelings on maintaining secrets?

Suppose that, as a result of dozens of hours of work, Kiriel and Delirium manage to find a new, super fun hunting area deep in an unknown section of Fire Island. Should they immediately release all their findings, with detailed maps and information? Should they enjoy their private area for a day or two, then spread the news? Should they only take trusted friends there until the secret slowly leaks, and others find it on their own?

As I think about these options, I realize that I would be really disappointed if they just dumped the news to the population as a whole. What are others' feelings?

[Aerick]

I just thought of something important.

I would say that if someone uncovers a detail important to the solution of a quest, they should let anyone working on that quest know about the development.

But if it is the end of something, or seems to have no significance, I don't see an advantage to ruining others' surprise.

[Farhope]

OOC:
Personnaly, I find important to keep "secrets".

Roughly, I see 2 things.

Personnal quest:
The quest for the bowl for example, I will have more the feeling of success when I will find a bowl myself.

Group quest:
If a group try to find a solution in a quest, it is better if the group can keep the solution for them. So, the other groups can have the satisfaction to find the "solution" too.

BUT...

yes, but :-)
but, it is not only a game of quests. Clanlord is also (and first IMHO) a role playing game. So, I would certainly break my own rules in many circonstances:
- the personnal quest I have solved gives the benefit to be an alchemist and one of my friend want to become an alchemist for a long time... I think I would "help" her.
- I have discovered (with or without a group) something in relation with Tenebrion; as I know that many people are worrying about him, I would say it or at least give hints, etc.
- ...

It is difficult to say... it would be case by case for me :-)

[Goric]

Personally, I think it was diplorable of PM to withhold information on the foothills from us all. What if it had been information that might get us all back to the Mainland or overthrow the emporer?

We are suppose to all be in this together. This is why we cannot solve these quests nad puzzles about these lands. Because many of the clans are acting selfishly and without honor!

If we are ever going to learn about these mysteries, we must work together. In saying that, yes, there are times when keeping secrets is necessary. But the question must be; Why are some keeping secrets? Are they doing it out of selfish interest? So they can be the ones to reap financial rewards.

I think that any clan that withholds this sort of information should be punished and perhaps even disbanded. But, admitedly, I do not know their story and reasoning for keeping this secret. If I am wrong in my judgement of them, I would hope to be corrected.

[Lilly]

I wholeheartedly support the idea of keeping things to yourself or your clan. I wish that there were more unique things to find so that clans could tailor themselves a bit more with special abilities (such as having their own heightened pathfinding abilities, or a blacksmithing clan, etc.) I hear the PM get alot of flack for keeping the foothills to themselves, but, quite frankly, they earned the right to do so. they worked very hard to get there, had tremendous organization, and made alot of sacrifices to accomplish it. I think it would have been to their credit if they had been generous in sharing their newfound knowledge, but I cant begrudge them even an ounce for wanting to hold onto a prize they earned. And i dont think anyone else should be begrudged for doing the same in the future.

Arteress Lai

[Goric]

As for me, If I ever withhold information or knowledge that would have benefited the whole, I will promptly leave the KNighthood never to pick it up again.

I could also never be a part of a clan or organization that did these sorts of things

[Lilly]

Dont get me wrong - I also support the idea of sharing ideas and bettering the clan and town as a whole. In the end, I guess what it is I wholeheartedly support is everyone's choice to do what they will. Being generous is far more respectable and endearing in my personal opinion, but I respect someone's desire to keep something to themselves as well, if theyve earned it. Our clan is about helping others and having fun doing so, so naturally we put a high value on sharing information. But thats not the purpose of every clan, and there needs to be room for them to be accomodated too. Some people just have more fun keeping secrets then sharing them.

Arteress Lai

[Goric]

I understand your position and I respect it. However, here in Puddleby, we are all working toward an ultimate goal. To solve the mysteries in the lands and regain some hope of returning to the mainland. Well, I guess some may not care for the last part.

Here we have common enemies and they are not each other. We fight the Darshak and many other enemies. There is nothing to be gained by the selfish desire for wealth or power. These things are fought for in others foreign lands. Lands in which that is the main purpose of life.

That kind of behavior should have no place here. As a KNight, it is my duty and privilege to stand for justice, fairness, and honor. I will oppose anything else in any place or form in which I find it. If neccessary with my very life!

[Althus]

I'm afraid I may have to disagree with you there, Goric. I'm working towards a different ultimate goal. I'm sure almost everyone here has some sort of personal agenda that they're working for behind the scenes, whether that is wealth, power, happiness, or anything else.

Who is to say that no exile can have an enemy in another? That's all well and good in theory, but in practice, it simply Does Not Work Out. People (not The People) in general are selfish. Even you, no matter how many moral codes you stick to, you've still got that basic sentient desire to forward your own goals over those of others.

I'll not comment on your duties as a knight, mostly because I don't want to start a huge controversy.

[Goric]

Well, there is nothing wrong with a little controversary and dialog. Its in debating back and forth that we can all learn. Only a fool says that he knows it all and has nothing to learn.

If we all voiced our opinions and debated them intelligently, withough getting angry or taking offense, we could learn so much.

As to selfishness. Yes I suppose that I must admit to something of this. I wish that all would enbrace the values, morals and ethics of Knighthood. It puzzles me that many do not, but wish instead to follow such hollow goals such as riches and power. These things are illusions and terrible masters.

But that is not the issue here. The issue is if we should all forgo the whole, and instead seek our own goals. Some selfishness is inevitable, but to put yourself ahead of .....


I should stop here before I get carried away

Sir Goric

[Althus]

But what IS the whole? If I find the secret to eternal life, I certainly wouldn't want Joe-Billy-Bob Snert to get his grubby mits on it. It's really tough to prove any statement about the community 'as a whole'.

As you said in another thread, it's impossible to make everyone happy. Some things weren't meant to be shared with some people. It *is* a personal decision. If PM feels that certain things aren't to be shared with us (a wise decision, considering Puddleby's tendency to bung things up), that's fully within their rights, and I applaud them for it.

We're big boys and girls. We can take care of ourselves.

[Lilly]

It appears to me that you are defining selfishness as something different then I do, Goric. I see being selfish as knowing what my own needs and desires are, knowing what it is ive earned, and knowing how much of what is out there I am entitled to. Selfishness, in and of itself, has no good or bad properties to it for me- its just knowing myself.

Now, when I put a positive to it, selfishness becomes honor; the ability to faithfully tend to myself, and respect the needs of others as well. When I put a negative to it, it becomes greed; the taking of things not deserved to me merely because I can, often at the expense of others.

Bearing in mind that this is how I define things, I think being selfish is a very important thing, as well as a very natural one; we are by current design separate beings of a single mind, each an individual self with fair claims to the world around us. The self is where processes start, and then shift into recognizing that i am not the only individual out there, so I must respect their choices as well, and share the world with them. I oppose greed, and uphold honor, though I am by no means perfect at doing so.

From what I have read in your posts, you also oppose greed, and uphold honor. it appears to me, however, that you also equate selfishness- that which i see as just my natural state of being - with greed itself, and then have honor as a separate entity. This is where my disagreements with you stem from. I value my selfishness because I have built my beliefs around it, and you have built your beliefs in a different structure, which defines selfishness as somethign heinous.

When it comes down to action though, we are both likely going to run out and help the fallen, give our coins away to those who need them, and defend everyone's homes from being ransacked by darshaks (and any other number of goodly things). Our different means come to the same end. As such, I am going to step out of this thread, because i have explained how i reach my ends, and there is really no reason to try and convince you to change your ideology when it already works at least as well as mine does. Carry on then, sir!

Arteress Lai

[Babajaga]

I can

[Goric]

Well Said Baba!!!!!

If we all start working together, we might actually get something done.

[Goric]

Originally posted by Althus
But what IS the whole? If I find the secret to eternal life, I certainly wouldn't want Joe-Billy-Bob Snert to get his grubby mits on it.

Gaia makes the sun to shine down on us all without reqard to wether a person is good or bad. Therfore, we should practice this same thing.

Life is not always fair. Its not even often fair. But we are all in this together and a clan that seeks it own selfish deisres will not survive. Baba, is right. It is treason!!

[Althus]

Personally, I don't buy into any of this "Gaia" stuff. And anyways, Gaia has nothing to do with the sun (get your religions straight ;). The sun shines equally on all, but on the other hand, the sun is the mystic god, and mystics suck. Therefore the sun sucks, and is a bad example to follow.

(I know my logic makes no sense. About as much as any other related to theology.)

[Lundar]

First off, the Sun is not some type of "mystic god" as yi claim. The Sun is one of the three powerful entities that created the beings that inhabit the world, along with the Moon and the Earth. The reason why the Sun is often associated with mystics, is because the Sun is the father of all knowledge, and because mystics deal in knowledge, we look to the Sun for strength and wisdom.

Now, about secrecy. The contention that knowledge that benefits the community should be shared, and not be kept secret, is incorrect, I believe. When yi think about it, ALL knowledge has the potential to benefit our community, and yet people still keep secrets. Take for example Malkor's spriggin stick. The spriggin stick is certainly an interesting and powerful tool, and it has the potential to benefit the community. However, should Malkor then go ahead and tell everyone how to find and use spriggan sticks? It would certainly benefit the community, wouldn't it? The same goes for Blood Blades, Metal Shields, and other items. Some things are just best learned for one's self.

So, was it right for Pogue Mahone to keep their knowledge of the Foothills a secret? The question is pretty debatable, but I believe that they had every right to. PM put a lot of time and effort into their expeditions into the Foothills, and if they did not want to share their hard gained information with the community at large, why should they? Certainly, if they had chosen to share their information with us, more people would have gotten a chance to get involved with the Foothills storyline sooner, but because they witheld their information, we got to enjoy the thrill of discovery for ourselves.

So there are benefits and disadvantages to sharing information. On one hand, more people get to find out about an event or quest, but on the other hand, people don't get the chance to experience the thrill of discovering something for themselves, and they pretty much just leech off of the hard work of others.

Now, as a Mystic, keeping secrets is second nature to me, yet I do try to share some of my knowledge with others. I publish a webscroll, that provides details as to some interesting quests and occurences in the lands, and also provide simple maps, that hopefully encourage exploration. Through my scrolls and maps, I try to help everyone in our community get involved in these quests and events.

However, as Althus said, "community" is a very broad term, that encompasses a wide range of people; from scholars to snerts, wimps to rank-whores. Making my knowledge available to everybody in the world may not be in my best interests.

Also, Babajaga; it is disturbing that yi use terms such as "treason" to describe the actions of the Pogue Mahone. We are not a kingdom, a country, or an Ascendancy. We have no rulers, no governments, and no laws. We are merely a community of exiles, who often find it in our best interests to work with each other. Thus, we cannot commit any sort of act that is treasonous. It is important to remember that we each have our own indivisual goals and agendas, and somtimes these may go against the goals and agendas of others in our "community".

-Lundar

[Aethelred]

Well said Lundar!

I VERY seldom disagree with Babajaga (mostly 'cause I only come up to her waist, and she can dice me into little beer-battered dorf-morsels without breaking a sweat), but I do disagree to an extent in this.

PM worked dang hard to get to the Foothills and, as I said about PM and the Foothills in the NG in regards to the shovels, "to the victor go the spoils". It was their choice whether to publicize or not, but I do not think the term "treason" has any bearing here. I personally probably would not have made the same decision as they, but then I am a different person.

If I were to stumble onto a special tunnel on FI that led into an Inner Drakes Den where the Magic SuperHigh Master Drake lived and talked, would I immediately announce it to the world? Probably not. I personally would love to have a go at solving the quest/mystery myself as someone who has devoted a lot of time and effort to FI. I would most likely ask other FI addicts to help me (Kiri, Lundar and Karkras come immediately to mind), but I would try to keep the group small to give us the thrill of discovery and achievement in reward for the long hours and weeks of hard work that we have put in.

*shrug*

I s'pose I should have just boiled this post down to: 'Yeah, me too" [:D]


Aethelred

[Goric]

If I were to discover a hidden tunel or some other secret about FI or another place, I would disclose it openly.

There is no honor in kepping these things to onesself and certainly no benefit!

My only agenda is to show the KNightly virtues through my own life, search out others that seek these thruths, and herald these vitues at every opertunity.

I stand by my judgement of PM and any others that would place their own value above those of others.

I am not going to come around to your way of thinking. And it seems obvious that you are not going to come around to mine, Baba's and others.

Therfor, I think we should agree to disagree.


Sir Goric

--It is a wonderful thing that in every age someone has had the individuality enough and courage enough to stand by his own convictions.

[Nuvali]

IC:
I agree with your idealism, Goric. Unfortunately, it requires an equally idealistic requirement that such knowledge will be handled responsibly by everyone.

Sometimes ... certain information--in the wrong hands--can pose unnecessary threats to the whole.

OOC:
I completely agree with Red and Lundar. For me, it's a roleplaying issue. Secrets are fun. I love a good mystery and trying to solve puzzles. Where is the fun in being handed every ounce of information on a silver platter? Well ... ok ... for some people that might be fun, but it's not for me.

On the other hand (and here's where I get hypocritical), I firmly believe that it will take many people to solve some of the larger quests--people that might not even know each other and the information (pieces of the puzzle) they have each obtained. It's kind of a neat blurry line: what should a person share with others, and what should they keep to themselves? It's always nice to get a nudge in the *right* direction. We all get stuck, from time to time, and for me, it's *all* the time :-D. I greatly appreciate assistance. But, at the same, there is no greater satisfaction than figuring something out by yourself or with a group.

I don't buy the notion that people who keep secrets are just being "selfish". That idea is a huge and dangerous leap, and discounts the possibility that people like PM are trying to *save* the fun of the mystery for others to enjoy. Then again, maybe PM wanted to horde the glory of the discovery. If the latter is the case, that's ok with me, as well. It is, afterall, "Clanlord." The name itself automatically summons a certain level of competition between groups.

[Aethelred]

Well said Nuvali.

Unfortunately, I can't come up with any hard and fast rule even for myself, let alone for anyone else. Like you said, it is a grey area (can you say charcoal?). The thrill of discovery, the feeling of accomplishment when you figure something out, the thousands of kegs of free beer given to you by naked sylvan ladies...err, lets just stop there...

But then again, these things take knowledge and input from a variety of sources. I guess the only thing for me is that each and every instance is unique, and has to be decided on its own merits. This topic IS limited by that fact that it is very very rare for any single indivudal to make discoveries or gain control of something that can be kept secret. To use the example that we have been using: FI isn't going to be solved by any solo brain, it will take thinking and input from a variety of exiles and professions, but the number of people who have a very wide grasp of that island is rather small (less than a couple of dozen that I can think of), and it would be nice to see them/us rewarded for our effort rather than some group of rank-whores who just hit the Drake Den for the vanqs and got lucky...

[Goric]

I would be quite interested to hear PM's reasoning behind their descision to keep the Foothills quiet.

Did they have the more noble reason of wanting to keep it quiet so that others would also have the thrill of discovery?

Or

Did they realize that new areas often provide very lucritive coin and so make the selfish descision to keep all this to themselves?

I am sure that PM became much richer by keeping the Foothills to themselves. If the first reason was there motive, then the wealth they gained while keeping this place to themseselves should be shared with the whole town.

I have not seen them do this, nor have I seen them try to explain their reasoning, so I must therfore believe that their reasons were more of a selfish nature.

You are right that sharing secrets is dangereous. They are exiles out there that would abuse the information. There are mishevious exiles that just enjoy causing problems, Young exiles that have not gained the maturity as yet to know how to conduct themselves, those that would seek to destroy the information or the area so that others cannot enjoy it, and those that would use the secret selfishly.

Should we withhold information and secrets out of the fear that someone will abuse it!

I give a resounding NO!!

If we offer the information with the proper attitude and with the proper motive, then we have done our part. What is done with that information is not our responsibility. Sure, I would love it if everyone would act responsibly and adhear to the KNighlty virtues.

But the reality is that this is not going to happen. The information I provide on the Garkazian order or the KNightly virtues could well be used against me. There are those that would love to destroy what I stand for.Someone might become a KNight and then have a change or heart, abuse their station and do damage to the KNightly institution that might even be irreperable.

Does that mean that I should not put this information out there and keep these truths a secret out of fear that it may be used improperly??

Sir Goric

----You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm.

[Goric]

OOC

As for the level of secrets that one wishes to find out, versus solving the mysteries for oneself;

I agree that if this information is put out there, it must be done responsibly.

What I would like to have is a searchable database of these secrest and information. There would be different levels that you must agree to before that secret is revealed.

Something like this...

_________(easily obtainable information)

__________(Slight secret)

__________(Medium range secret)

__________( Major give away!!)

I am open to ideas on the best way to do this.

I also need someone that has the ability to set this up in a web page because I dont know how to do it. Anyone out there that would like to help, please apply within!! (send me e-mail)

HTF Sir Goric