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Drablak
12-15-2001, 10:35 AM
About sharing


This is going to be a somewhat long post about the mechanics of sharing. I have had many conversations with my fellow exiles on the topic, and I have come to realize that the effects of sharing on mystics is not particularly well understood by the general public. In fact, to my surprise I have found that many exiles are not clear about the effects of sharing on healers, which is a phenomenon that is far better documented than the effects on mystics.

The effect of sharing for mystics is as profound as it is for healers, and therefore this is a subject that matters to me a great deal. My abilities as a mystic in combat and exploration are directly linked to your sharing actions, and I hope that by explaining this phenomenon to the public, I and my fellow mystics will be better able to serve our clan and the exile population at large.

First a totally personal view on the three professions and the mechanics of how each gains experience. Of the three professions, fighters acquire experience the fastest of all. This is because of two things: creatures they defeat in combat and slaughter levels. Defeating creatures is not the only way to gain experience, but certainly the quickest way and the most straightforward. Fighters are best at defeating creatures hence they gain experience faster. This I have experienced personnally when I helped a new exile at a time I was already an aprentice and she is now about 100 ranks ahead of me. I don't resent it, I chose my profession and I like it, I am just stating facts as i know them. A second aspect is slaughter level. Of all three professions fighters slaughter the slowest of all (then comes healers and finally mystics are the fastest in slaughtering things). On the other hand fighters don't have as many shares usually than the other professions. They have shares when bricking and on some other occasions (as when organising newby hunts) mostly (of course some have more than that fo a number of reasons). Another thing that gives experience is exploration or heroic rescues, etc. These are accessible to fighters since they are required for those raids/rescues/hunt. And of course fighters have the 'challenges' to get exp also. I heard it was almost a rank worth of exp but could not confirm that.

Next let's discuss healers. Very rapidly a healer slaughters everything that he/she can hit, which means that experience from defeating creatures becomes rapidly non-existant. So the primary source of experience for healers is through shares. Healers also get from time to time some experience from healing. They have mostly the same access to exploration exp, but not much from the challenges (although on this i speculate, anyone?). Healers depend on shares for the major part of their experience.

And finally, mystics: The main difference between mystics and healers in terms of slaughter level is that, while healers slaughter everything that they can hit, mystics slaughter things that they still cannot reliably hit (and that can kill them). For instance I get killed by large vermine on a regular basis and I started slaughtering them. So experience from defeating creatures is rare. Mystic rely mostly on shares to get their exp. They have less access to exploration and heroic rescue exp generally because they have less access to these and the idea of doing the challenges is actually laughable (except for the rat challenge). Mystic do not get exp from using their abilities (as healers do from time to time).

So that is a background on where each profession gains experience. There are also two additional and very important considerations about sharing.

One: Healers lose spirit/health much faster if a non-healer patient does not share them. When the patient shares them they lose spirit/health but at a much lower rate. When a healer heals another healer, they automatically benefit from the slower spirit/health loss even if they are not sharing one another.

Two: Mystic have all/most of their skills affected by the number of shares they receive. For example, that means that when I boost while 3 people are sharing me I will get a particular level of effect, and 3 minutes later if I do the same boost while I have 10 shares the effect of the boost is going to be increased. The effect of sharing on boost performance makes a lot of difference for an apprentice mystic, a little less for a JM and even less for a FM. I will also say that for some skills, the amount of time you've been sharing with the mystic has an impact as well. So aside from experience, shares have a real and important impact on a mystic.

So now a couple of observations. I often have discussions with healers that feel that their share is not worth anything. I also get that from fighters if you can beleive that :) I hope.what i've explained above removes any doubts about that being true When a healer shares with a mystic, the mystic's skills are improved.

There is considerable risk involved in not sharing healers in a dangerous situation. This is a real issue and one that must be taken into account by exiles. I am part of a couple of groups that often go to dangerous places and the need to keep healers on their feet is very clear and not sharing the one healing you makes him/her lose their health faster and they could fall. So everyone must share the healer that is actually healing them. Also, in a critical situation you don't want to have to juggle shares to accomodate the one healer that comes to backpack you while you face a creature.

Different groups have ways of addressing this issue. In one of my groups we have discussed this actually and came to a compromise that is quite effective (although obviously not the only possible solution). I will present it below as an example of how it is possible to take into account all the many facets of the sharing mechanics by a large group of exiles:

1) All healers share lock all mystics. (by /share /lock <mysticname>).

2) Mystics share all healers if possible or share lock the non-cad healers and keep slots for cadders (if there are more than 5 healers in the group).

3) Everyone uses the 'sharecad' macro. For those unfamiliar with it it automatically shares the healer cadding you.

4) Fighters share lock the non-cad healers and sharelock one mystic and keep at least one slot for cadders (for the 'sharecads' macro). If there are more than one mystic, then rotate the share locked mystic from time to time or decide beforehand that a even number share lock each mystic present (a better method actually).

All of this depends on a lot of factors (number of healers, both cadders and non-cadders, defense of fighters, danger of the creatures, etc.). A nice thing about this is that on tough hunts, healers get a chance at making exp from creatures if they can be boosted by mystic to be able to tag them. CL is about cooperation and sharing is a big part of it. And sharing is essential for healers and mystics.

I know this very long post. I feel very uncomfortable talking about this subject, and I hope that by presenting all this information here in this comfortable reading environment I will avoid having to deal with the awkwardness of explaining this to exiles in medias res. I hope that if nothing else, it is informative to some people.

Drablak.

P.S. Note for those unfamiliar with the terms cad, cadding, non-cadders, etc.: healers that can heal at a distance use a device called a caduceus, or 'cad' for short. Those that possess it and can heal at a distance are called cadders, those that cannot and must touch to heal are non-cadders. When you are healed by a cadder there is a message that you get "

Kiriel
12-15-2001, 01:08 PM
Just a few points of clarification for your very interesting post:

1. I agree, most folks don't understand how sharing affects mystics or even healers. I didn't know for many months after playing that mystics were affected by the number of shares. I didn't fully understand the issue with healers till I played a healer and saw with my own eyes what happens when you don't share. Perhaps it would be good for you to make a page on sharing tips that we could post on the scrolls- it might be a good reference for new exiles interested in learning more about sharing. It could cover sharing in the context of group hunts, solo hunts, and large sprawling hunts and other situations, and talk about what a share does for you and what your share does for others. I think this might be a valuable educational tool.

2. The challenges you mention (I assume you talk about quests like the rat and LV quests) are open to everyone. I believe everyone gets the same experience from them too. Granted, it's harder for mystics and healers to do them, but at the very least they should be able to accomplish the rat and large vermine quests, and possibly the island panther quest as well, with careful planning. Given that mystics have boosts, it might actually be easier for a mystic to do the quests than a healer- perhaps they could do the harder ones too with enough preplanning (since they only have to make sure to get in the last hit)

Drablak
12-15-2001, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Kiriel
Just a few points of clarification for your very interesting post:

Thanks :)

Perhaps it would be good for you to make a page on sharing tips that we could post on the scrolls- it might be a good reference for new exiles interested in learning more about sharing. It could cover sharing in the context of group hunts, solo hunts, and large sprawling hunts and other situations, and talk about what a share does for you and what your share does for others. I think this might be a valuable educational tool.

It is actually planned this way. I will have a place on my scroll for such educational tools (for those that do not know I was a teacher in the ascendancy). I have some on sharing and on hunt that are planned. i am working on a small Noth bestiary at the moment to help the hunt tomorrow. I plan to have many document on a variety of subjects that could be helpful to new exiles.

Granted, it's harder for mystics and healers to do them, but at the very least they should be able to accomplish the rat and large vermine quests, and possibly the island panther quest as well, with careful planning.

That is quite true, although I don't feel strong enough to do the LV hunt. I have a fighter friend that is planning to have me complete the night wendecka challenge actually, but it will require a very big crew to pul that off :D That would be quite an accomplishment though. You cannot trade trophies from those challenges btw, so if someone shows one to you it means he/she really did the challenge.

Drablak

Drablak
12-16-2001, 09:57 AM
/action looks around to see if anyone except Kiriel is reading his posts

/ponder ok maybe this was a bad idea after all [:(]

/action sighs

Drablak

Delirium
12-16-2001, 10:57 AM
Drab,

OOC

I read your post. Being an AM sucks, yes. I like boosts, but I'm a healer. Many fighters seem to get upset at being boosted. I don't think they understand how to use boosts, and therein lies the true problem - they don't share you because they don't think you are useful. They don't care whether you get *any* experience or whether their share helps your boost. I think most of my fighter shares don't care whether I get any exp either, but they want my help in getting healed. You can come up with Fair sharing proposals until you are blue, but it won't do a bit of good unless you get fighters to want your boosts.

I hope you've noticed now, though that mystics are high on my share list priorities, and clan mystics especially. BTW - I have noticed that it is easier to heal clan members than non-clan members - there seems to always be a small spirit link between clan members. Have you noticed whether your boosts are better when their are lots of clan members in the lands?

Also, I don't like the sharecad macro - I don't have a cad, nor do I plan to get one for about 200 ranks, maybe 400 (depends on whether I do chains or cad first).

Konoko
12-16-2001, 12:02 PM
I don't mind getting boosted - any bit helps. However I don't know what the boosts really are supposed to do. Or how they work or the proper way to use them.

Maybe it's just that I don't notice much difference or maybe I don't know what I'm looking for.

I have asked mystics in the past about boosts but they didn't really answer much.


I understand that is an atkus boost and a balthus boost. Are there other boosts?

So the atkus boosts gives you what like a percentage bonus for atkus or like 20 more atkus or what?

Is the balthus boost really a straight addition to balthus or some regia as well? How much more balthus?


I can understand why some fighters do not want the boosts. There is very often a delicate balance between balthus, regia, atkus, and darkus. I think this is like the biggest concern and issue that fighters have to deal with during their training. At least that's what it seems to be to me. If I train (or suddenly get via a boost) say 20-30 ranks in atkus, my balthus/regia (i.e. the # of swings) is going to be heavily affected. Now instead of getting say 3.5 swings I'm only getting 2 or something.

Each fighter has a style of fighting and the # of swings a fighter has plays a major role in dictating her/his style. I have 100+ histia and 3-4 swings. I will take a couple hits and dish out like 3-4 hits. If I now only get like 2 swings because of the extra atkus, it affects how I fight.


This is only my theory as to why some fighters would not appreciate boosts. This is mostly in regards to an atkus boost. I'm not sure how the balthus boost works so I can't theorise on that.

But I would love to learn the details/amounts/etc of the different mystic boosts.

And how does a share or a non-share affect the boost. Bigger boost (higher percentage)? Or is it a longer boost? Or what?


And if a mystic wants to boost me - I won't be upset. I can use all the help I can get! :)



And as for the sharing proposal you mention, I follow something similar to that. I don't use the cad share macro. I do like to lock say 3-4 shares and then leave 1-2 for rotation. And I often do try to have a mystic shared. If I'm off on a hunt with a mystic or 2 then I will definitely have that mystic shared and locked.


And this fighter does care and think about the experience I am hopefully getting others via the shares. Although in coin hunts say in NWF or SF, pretty much everything are slaughters.

I have found that say at 500-600 ranks, there is a noticeable slowdown in the amount of ranks coming in. Of course the slowdown happens when you start slaughtering stuff. Perhaps for me, when I reached this plateau, I was happy coin hunting, etc as I slowly slaughtered more and more. I have not branched out to tougher monsters (savannah/wendies) as the slaughter rate increased. I will go to these areas, but they are not always the easiest to solo (I won't even try) and sometimes it takes a while to get there or it is a difficult path (I hate the east forest and I'm not too fond of the marsh).

At least that's the way it seemed for me as a fighter. I don't know if the other professions noticed anything like this slowdown. Perhaps it was experienced at a different level. And for me - I'm in the library lots so many ranks are just library ranks.

Another difference to think of is the circle tests. Healers progress quite rapidly when compared to fighters. For fighters, passing the second circle test isn't too bad but there is a huge gap in time from passing the third circle. I don't even want to think of 4th and beyond. While a fighter is working on passing 3rd, I think healers often leapfrog the fighter and pass their third and then 4th in short order compared to the poor fighter. I have no idea what the details are for mystics. This is how I've noticed it anyways. But then as I said, I'm often in the library and not out on those rank-whoring types of hunts.

Konoko

Drablak
12-16-2001, 12:08 PM
Deli

OOC
Since you replied OOC I will too. BTW I don't see the need to go OOC on this but I don't mind.

First of all, for the record HWC is not as insecure IRL as Drablak is IC and both HWC and Drablak are very happy about playing/being a mystic. Despite popular opinion, mystics DON'T suck at all even though many AM can feel that way from time to time (both IC and OOC). I have fighter friends telling me fighters suck and healers telling me healers suck. Personally I have many characters and enjoy playing all of them. I am a RPer, and I play Drablak as someone who is insecure on some things and is concerned about being a bother to people. My posts here reflect that.

That being said, and since your post was OOC, you really seem to have a problem with shares (SWC). I may not have been clear enough in my original post but the system I describe:

1) is in place in one of the groups I am part of. It is an exploration group of high ranked people consisting of mostly fighters and healers.

2) the system was actually proposed not by me, but by a fighter.

Of course there are some people in the group that do not follow it completely and for various (IC and OOC) reasons, but that is only natural. We cannot expect every player to be the same type of player that we are ourselves, and everyone has a right to play in their own way. Also some RPers have IC reasons to hate mystics and that is ok too of course.

It has been my personal experience playing a mystic that most fighters do NOT disregard boosts - in fact they relish them. Fighters actually request boosts in tough and well orchestrated hunts like Dal'noth for instance. And, I get shares from a number of fighters I do not even know in the game so things are not as bleak as you seem to think IMO. Perhaps the people you are hunting with are not treating you as well as they should be.

I did notice you shared mystics and I do appreciate it.

I did not notice what you mention about clan members, I think it is very interesting and needs to be looked into.

About not liking sharecads: I am not certain I understand the reason you don't like it. If you don't have a cad you'd be sharelocked in the proposed (and only given as an example) system so you'd be not too bad off.

Hope this clarifies HWC's position a bit.

HWC Drablak

Drablak
12-16-2001, 05:37 PM
Dear Konoko,

I don't mind getting boosted - any bit helps. However I don't know what the boosts really are supposed to do. Or how they work or the proper way to use them.
Maybe it's just that I don't notice much difference or maybe I don't know what I'm looking for.
I have asked mystics in the past about boosts but they didn't really answer much.
I understand that is an atkus boost and a balthus boost. Are there other boosts?
So the atkus boosts gives you what like a percentage bonus for atkus or like 20 more atkus or what?
Is the balthus boost really a straight addition to balthus or some regia as well? How much more balthus?


i will explain a little more about boosts to try to answer your questions Konoko. Please keep in mind that this is my understanding of things and the reality may very well be different. In any case it'll give you an idea of that they are and what they do.
There are two types of boosts: Ballou and Akea. Ballou gives Balthus and Akea gives Atkus. To my knowledge there are no other types of boosts.
Boosts are very simple to understand: they simply give you a number of additional ranks of either Balthus or Atkus for a limited time. It is as if you gained those ranks all of a sudden, with all the advantages and the disadvantages that go with them.
The number of ranks a boost gives you depends on the skill of the mystic boosting you. So I could give you 50 more Atkus ranks per boost (for example), with 3 simultaneous boosts that makes 150 additional Atkus boosts, not bad really.
Of course it is exactly as if you had trained those Atkus ranks, which means that each of your strikes are going to be more accurate (more Atkus) but also that each swing is going to use more balance. Exactly as if you had trained Atkus for 150 ranks without compensating with Swengus or Balthus.

I can understand why some fighters do not want the boosts. There is very often a delicate balance between balthus, regia, atkus, and darkus. I think this is like the biggest concern and issue that fighters have to deal with during their training. At least that's what it seems to be to me. If I train (or suddenly get via a boost) say 20-30 ranks in atkus, my balthus/regia (i.e. the # of swings) is going to be heavily affected. Now instead of getting say 3.5 swings I'm only getting 2 or something.

This is absolutely right Konoko. The courteous thing to do is never to give an Atkus boost to a fighter without his consent unless the situation warrants it (like looking at him/her whiff a Landew for 5 minutes straight). Newbies or mystics/healers depend on the situation and their stated intent at the beginning of a hunt.
As for Balthus boost, those are generally welcomed by all fighters because they very rarely disrupt the training balance. They tend to increase defense and swings as Balthus does (this is from my limited understanding of fighter trainers so i may be wrong here).
Generally speaking higher level fighters don't care for Atkus boosts unless they want to hit a Pallidew or a Sun Wyrm. Lower level fighters are another matter entirely and more often than not welcome a little more Atkus (a 1st circle facing a feral is a good example).

And how does a share or a non-share affect the boost. Bigger boost (higher percentage)? Or is it a longer boost? Or what?

Well your guess is as good as mine :) Seriously shares seem to affect all aspects of a boost: range, duration, number of ranks. The more shares, the bigger the range, the longer the duration, the higher the number of ranks added.

I have found that say at 500-600 ranks, there is a noticeable slowdown in the amount of ranks coming in.
Konoko


Well I'll tell you when and if i reach the 500-600 ranks mark :)

Hoping this helps a little.

Drablak

Konoko
12-16-2001, 08:25 PM
Thanks Drablak

For future reference, you can always give me boosts. The althus boosts I think would be more useful to me rather than the balthus boosts. I guess it depends on the situation though:
- can't hit something, need atkus
- can hit but need more swings, need balthus


Konoko

Himitsu
12-16-2001, 08:33 PM
A skilled mystic could also boost with Akea for accuracy and then Ballou for balance so those boosted might not lose any swings at all

Kiriel
12-16-2001, 09:23 PM
I find Ballou boosts are useful mostly for situations where you're about to enter a swarm of creatures. For instance, today, when we entered the zodiac room, it was good to have the extra balance and swings since we knew we would be immediately swarmed by undine of all shapes and sizes.

For me akea is actually useful quite a bit because although my atkus is plenty for things I hunt regularly, I often end up fighting things like furies, valley panthers and such where my atkus is just 25-50 short of what I need to hit well. But definitely when I don't need the atkus to hit I prefer Ballou.