Winds of Dawn Clan Forum - Spirtus, Bodrus and Mentus

Sargon

01-02-2002, 05:21 AM

Spirtus is a very useful trainer for healers. (or so I've heard - don't have any training with him myself) He helps to increase your selfhealing and makes it a lot easier for others to heal you. This is especially helpful when rodding a monster, where usually one healer takes the hits of the beast (or lightning) and is supported by several healers who heal hir. In summary, Spirtus is like a slightly weakened Eva but with the additional effect of making you more healable. (there's a thread somewhere which compares Eva and Spirtus numberwise - somewhere. that or Althus starts posting again :)

Now about Bodrus I'm really not qualified to say anything about him, but.. here goes.. :) Bodrus increases your fighting skills in general. (like Eva or Spirtus increases your healing skills in general) I think Bodrus lacks a bit of that_trainer_which_makes_you_swing_more, which means that you will slowly loose swings - something which healers who trained with Bodrus completely (standing on Bodrus' toes is best you can reach) often complain. Therefore many healer who like to train in Bodrus train to better student and stop then, in order to not loose too many swings.

Now Mentus.. I guess what Spirtus is for healers and what Bodrus is for fighters, is Mentus for those following the Mystic profession. Some speculate that some Mentus helps with the sunstone not wearing down too often. And it definitely makes you unaffected by those deadly poppies. Personally I learned a bit with Mentus because I don't intend to roam the lands with an IQ of a rock. If it helps something, all the better!

HTH

Sargon

Drablak

01-02-2002, 07:32 AM

Originally posted by Nephilim
But what does Mentus teach? I have never understood that. Is it any use for me to train with him?

/Nephilim

I am very interested in Mentus myself and I did/will do research on his training effects. I will make a scroll (already began to draft it) on what I found out. At the moment my theory is that Mentus helps everything, litterally. I actually think that it gives you a little of every skill, even those you never trained. This is only speculation on my part at this time of course, but I have made some corroborating observations.
These effects are subtle though and you may need more Mentus to notice any effect than you are willing to train (I keep him on his toes).

To answer your original question: my advice would be to train a little of all 3 basic trainers, something like 10-20 Mentus, 20-50 Bodrus and 30-50 Spirtus.

Just my 2c, YMMV, IMHO and all that :

Hippocrates

01-02-2002, 07:47 AM

I think this is the comparison that Sargon was speaking of...Anyway, it was done by Thuja and can be found at:

http://www.puddleby.dk/eva_spirtus.txt

-Hippocrates

Nephilim

01-02-2002, 01:35 PM

There are also some numbers for Eva/Spirtus here:

http://bor.clanlords.com/healer/eva.html

and for Evus/Bodrus:

http://bor.clanlords.com/fighter/evus.html

But that is just numbers :)

/Neph

Hippocrates

01-02-2002, 02:49 PM

Hmm...this is where things get interesting.

From a post by Kiriel:

Bodrus is a little dangerous for a healer because you gain atkus more than swengus, which will reduce your swings a little the more you train it, and unlike fighters, healers don't have a way to fix that swing reduction. A little bodrus is useful for killing rats and stuff and occasional tagging, but for sure don't get more than 50.

From a post by Sargon:

I think Bodrus lacks a bit of that_trainer_which_makes_you_swing_more, which means that you will slowly loose swings - something which healers who trained with Bodrus completely (standing on Bodrus' toes is best you can reach) often complain. Therefore many healer who like to train in Bodrus train to better student and stop then, in order to not loose too many swings.

From the webpage mentioned below:

Bodrus teaches: (roughly)
50% Swengus
30% Atkus
20% Histia
15% Darkus
10% Detha

The webpage shows more Swengus than Atkus, making it OK for healers to train. Just thought I'd point this out.

Hippocrates

Jeanne

01-02-2002, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Hippocrates
The webpage shows more Swengus than Atkus, making it OK for healers to train. Just thought I'd point this out.[/B]

Just because you get 5 Swengus for ever 3 Atkus it doesn't mean that this balances out the fact that each swing will take more balance (Balthus specifically) with the Atkus training. It just means that you won't lose quite as many swings as you would otherwise.

It is my experience that Atkus hurts your balance much more than Darkus does and you need a lot of Swengus or Balthus to keep the same number of swings and Swengus or Regia so you won't have to wait for 30 seconds to recover from one swing. I know that I will have many months of balance training to recover from the 200 Atkus I gained in order to pass into third circle.

Many healers say that Faustus is a cruel trainer. In that case, Atkus is the fighter equivalent of Faustus except that since Atkus is necessary to fight stronger and stronger beasts, Atkus is far crueler than Faustus is.

Hippocrates

01-02-2002, 04:07 PM

Ah, I see. I didn't realize that having them equal wouldn't make the balance appropriate. You're right, that's just like the Faustus/Respia relationship.

To Drablak: I remember when Mentus came in an update, quite a long time ago...before the Ripture War, and it was rumored that his teachings helped balance. Sadly, I quit soon after so I never heard if this was true or not, but it probably wasn't. This might help your theory about training everything, though.

Thanks,
Hippocrates

Hidden

01-02-2002, 04:29 PM

Just because you read it on a webscroll doesn't mean it's true :)

The only analysis I'd trust would be Thuja's and she hasn't written up one for Bodrus or Evus. What I *do* know, though, is that Bodrus does reduce swings, quite noticeably. Right now I (10 bodrus or so) have about 20 swings with my Quarterstaff. A long time ago, when I had 100 Bodrus, I had only 3. That's a big difference.

The case for Bodrus: If you're a rescue healer who plans to focus mainly on doing newbie rescues without fighter aide, Bodrus is a great help, since he'll keep vermine up to giant, and most island panthers off your back. He also lets you tag things while you're a newbie for experience, and even solo hunt a bit, which can be an early advantage.

The middle path: 50 Bodrus won't cripple you at high levels as much as 100, but also won't give you the full benefit. If you decide to train with him, this is the ammount I reccomend. (For a Sylvan, more for weaker fighters like Thooms and Halflings, who have abundance of balance)

The case against Bodrus: If you ever plan to do more advanced work, or will usually be accompanied by a fighter, Bodrus is not nearly worth the ranks. Most healers with 0 bodrus can hit rats just fine with a dagger or rapier, which is fine for clearing things off fallen exiles. More swings also allows you more chance to luck hit and tag beasts for experience at higher levels (I get occasional cave cobra, Large Midnight Wendecka, and Lyfelidae tags on hunts, for example). Since a fighter can better fulfill the bricking and hitting purposes of Bodrus, the ranks would be better spent on something like Spirtus, which will help your survival more.

The case for Spirtus: Spirtus is a great trainer for improving the rate at which you recover from a battle (and thus are more readily available to help others) in two ways: the first is that he gives much more Sespus than the average healer would train, which can be beneficial at some times. Secondly, the rodnus component helps you get healed by other healers (who will be more and more available and necessary at higher levels) faster, which is a huge bonus. Some also believe Spirtus contains another, unknown component, or possibly a side-effect of Rodnus, that improves selfheal efficiency. I tend to believe that as well.

The case against Spirtus: There is no reason/downside to training Spirtus unless you expect NEVER EVER to be healed by another healer, which is a pretty dumb assumption. Even Thuja falls sometimes.

The case for Mentus: Mentus is useful for, among other things, deadly poppies. 10 mentus will secure you lifetime invulnerability to the little black and green bastards, which will make you more valuable on some rescues. It doesn't come up often, but it's a big help when it does. There are also various other rumours about Mentus, but none of them are confirmed, since they all relate to very expensive things. There is a strong belief that he helps maintain sunstones, though.

The case against Mentus: Deadly poppies are insanely rare, and there are no other PROVEN effects of Mentus for anyone but Mystics (who need it, regardless of utility, for getting ahead in the guild). Some say it's a huge waste of ranks. I, personally, don't have any, and never plan to train with him.

Hope I've been helpful.

Mehan

01-02-2002, 05:26 PM

or in the case of a healing zo

No bodrus, two swings. Damn.

Aerin

01-03-2002, 07:16 AM

About Mentus....

I have 20, and I consider them ranks well spent, though I am unlikely to train more any time soon.

I've been in Puddleby for just over a year (IC time-- nearly 4 months OOC), and I've seen deadly poppies twice. That's not very frequent, and I wouldn't get mentus just because of poppies, unless like me you get a big kick about being able to sit on top of the things.

Probably of more use is that I heard from one mystic that my mentus makes me easier to locate with skristal. [I'd be really interested in testing this one out some time if I can find a JM and someone with no mentus who are both interested in the experiment.] I've also been told that it may help when I am boosted, but that is harder to verify. Your milage may vary, but being easy to locate is pretty worthwhile to me. I think I remember getting a "you feel Rincewind seeking you" when I was outside midpass and he was in town, which is pretty good range if I am remembering correctly.

I've never had my sunstone wear, but at this point that could just be good luck.

I have a friend who tested the extra swings theory, the results were negative. I'm pretty darn sure that I owe all my swings to purely fighter trainers.

I guess the bottom line is that mentus is worth it if you work with mystics regularly, or if you're really worried about sunstone wear. Personally, I am likely to get more if I find I'm falling a lot outside of the range of the locaters that I share.

Hidden

01-03-2002, 07:37 AM

I'd never heard about Mentus being used for long-range locations, but...

First, 4 (ooc) months sounds about right for a sunstone with no mentus, maybe even not lonv enough. I can frequently use a SS without wear for 6 straight months.

Second, even if Mentus does help with skristal location, it'd say it's pretty fruitless for the moment. A good toggle locator will always be able to pinpoint your location (so long as you know it) faster than even the best trained mystic (unless they ask for toggles, too).

Mentus, if it does help in that capacity, is another one of those inadvisable skills that doesn't scale up very well, because at higher levels, the direction of a fallen is useless without knowing exactly (or within 1-2) which snell they're in, since any more delay could make them potentially uhealable 2 hours away from town. In some cases a cardinal direction won't even help (Snagglewood comes to mind)

Lex

01-03-2002, 11:30 AM

Bodrus:
I think some people who plan to be fighters train Bodrus before they are allowed into the fighter hall to access the better trainers. For healers, some Bodrus might help at lower levels, but you might be a little happier spending those ranks in Respia, Awaria, or Spiritus if you are concerned with staying alive. I know really good healers with 100 Bodrus and really good healers with none at all. Mystics probably train Bodrus because they can't self-heal and they can't train Detha, and it helps in getting around by yourself.

Spiritus:
I think every healer should probably have a little, and it certainly doesn't hurt to get a lot. With Spiritus you seem to need more Respia to not lose spirit while you heal others, but the Rodnus is worth it. Even for fighters, especially those with high Histia, Spiritus is helpful... although some wait to train Rodnus directly and avoid gaining skill in things like Faustus that they can never use.

Mentus:
I've been told by a couple mystics that sunstones wear less with Mentus ability. Other than that I don't see much point unless you're a mystic in getting this skill.

Hidden

01-03-2002, 04:14 PM

Bodrus is 200% useless for anyone who wants to be a fighter, since Evus is a better and uncapped trainer You lose 2 ranks by training 10 bodrus, since Evus has 20% more of a rank.

The 10 ranks needed for Master Fistus to accept someone can and should come from something much more useful, like Skea or Spirtus. I personally suggest 5 on language, 5 on skea, 10 spirtus, or 10 PF which wil give a strong early advantage to the new fighter.

Karkras

01-03-2002, 05:06 PM

Here is a quote from a respected healer friend of mine, which I always remember when the Spirtus question comes up:

"I had trained 300 ranks of Eva. Then I went to untrainus and untrained everything and put it all into Spirtus. Even with the loss in ranks, I was immediately a better healer."

I never heard any healer regret training Spirtus. (Then again, the subject hasn't come up with every healer I've met!)

As a fighter, I agree with Hidden: Never, ever train with Bodrus.

As a fighter, I trained one rank each of Mentus and Spirtus; it just makes mathematical sense to me: with one rank, I have infinitely more Mentus and Spirtus training than exiles who have none (that is not to say I have that much more actual Mentus or Spirtus, just that I can say I have infinitely more formal training in it). However, I have no plans to train either any further. (Because, of course, I can't get better than infinity!"

Hidden

01-03-2002, 05:19 PM

Minor quibble: No, you don't have infinitely more. You might have anywhere from 2-10% more, though. All exiles start with some base skill in everything except PF, or else we'd all die in one hit from rats which would always hit us and we'd whiff to death.

Sargon

01-03-2002, 05:33 PM

Now now, Karkras! Don't hit on Eva!!!! :) Most of my 1st circle healer ranks come from Eva (I said hi to Respia once or twice) and I'm not that unlucky! (well ok, I do suck, so you may have a valid point *giggles*)

Anyway, I just started to train with Master Spirtus! (before reading this board btw!) Let's see how long I'll stay with him... /ponder Eva is cuter!

And now to you, silly Hidden! You can both be wrong and both be right! Karkras is looking at the number of ranks and further assumes we all start with zero (ooc: it could really be any number internally, but zero sounds intuitive; heh, maybe they start at 42 and count backwards!) You, Hidden, are looking at the _effects_ of the training (like every new exile can hit and do _some_ damage, even while having zero Darkus (?) ranks, or take _some_ damage even while having zero with that_trainer_who_makes_you_taking_more_hits_before_you_fall_down.

Meow!

Sargon

Sargon

01-03-2002, 05:34 PM

Btw, welcome to WoD's forum, Karkras! =)

Sargon

Hidden

01-03-2002, 05:56 PM

I know I'm right, this has been confirmed several times. Here's an example: Horus.

Every newbie healer has 50 horus, automagically. They start with it. They have it while they're still an "exile". Every fighter and mystic has it too, they just can't use it.

Every other skill except PF, baking, brewing, sylphstone, pendanting, and the few others like that (can't do anything without training) gives exiles a few initial ranks. I'd guess the average fresh-off-the-boat-hasn't-chosen-a-race-newbie has 200 ranks, and is given the title of "Master" when his/her skills double.

Archemar

01-04-2002, 03:17 AM

Hello,

I thought Bodrus was mandatory before your receive the dagger, which is obviously wrong (?).
The more I read about trainer stuff, the less I understand.:confused:
It really sounds like a foreign tongue to me.
This is not due to those who (try to) explain of course.[:D]

Hence my strategy is more like mood-of-the-day trainer. Add your racial tongue (which seems

Lex

01-04-2002, 05:45 AM

You need 10 ranks of Bodrus or 15 ranks of any other skill to become a fighter. Some people get Bodrus but you don't have to. I think when I started I didn't even know how to train or that bumping a trainer did anything, so I ended up training a couple Spiritus and a couple Bodrus before I even knew I had trained at all.

Dentir will help with things like myrms, but remember that not all myrm have mandibles that are worth anything, so even someone very skilled will get no coins. Most small myrm never give coins - the only ones that have consistent mandibles are big ones, like royals. Giant crawlers and noids are also reliable for a few coins.

There's no one in the fighter hall that tells you what to train, nor should there be. There's really no right answer, and you might want to talk to a few fighters before you decide. Your ideas may change as you grow stronger. At your level, a lot of higher level fighters may all look the same, because in areas you hunt, such as the myrm hive or the forests, they can all pretty much do the same things, but if you ask a little about their stlye most people are friendly and don't mind discussing it.

There really is no "best" weapon for a non-fighter. Some healers like the rapier, but if you can get your hands on a dagger they're pretty good too.

Lex

Drablak

01-04-2002, 05:57 AM

Lex: I did not know about the 15 ranks of other trainers, but you can get 10 ranks of troilus and become a fighter, which is way more useful than bodrus for a fighter and a good investment for anyone.

That's what I'd do, but YMMV.

Drablak

Nunul

01-04-2002, 06:49 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Archemar
[B]As for warrior, isn

Lex

01-04-2002, 07:30 AM

If you trained all the trainers individually, Evus doesn't think you've gained a rank, even though you have the parts-of-Evus-ranks to match people who've trained lots of Evus. The lady in the fighter hall makes sure Evus says the right message, nothing else.

What's your biggest problem on the tests? Maybe I can help. I would think you'd need minimum of 600 Evus to pass 3rd, if you trained nothing else.

Lex

Konoko

01-04-2002, 07:33 AM

When I began my training in the fighter hall, I spoke with whats-her-name who stands due south of that progress guy...

I can't remember her name either. But I believe when you first start she does offer some helpful advice.

I think she now tells me I'm nicely balanced or whatever. Initially when I was working on 2nd circle and training lots of atkus, she did say something mentioning I was weak in a certain area. I can't remember the exact message. When I get home I can search through my logs and let you know what it was...

Konoko

Nunul

01-04-2002, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by Lex
What's your biggest problem on the tests?

Falling.
No, really, falling is my problem.

One week I got the rage to red, whilst I was on high yellow...I ran out of time. [:(]
So I trained a lil more Atkus...

Two weeks later, I barely was able to eek out 2 hits on the rage before I was pummelled by it. :eek:
So I trained a lil Detha...

This goes round and around.
To be quite honest tho, I am not as interested in gaining circles for to get a new shiny belt. Most exiles I hunt with prolly have no clue that I am still 2 circle.
I DO have my sights set on Rodnus tho. [;)]

Whenever I get discouraged now, I just think of Lorikeet and Koric. They stuck to their guns and trained the way they wanted. Eventually...........................they made it passed the 3 circle test[:D]

-Nunul

Mehan

01-04-2002, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by Lex
You need 10 ranks of Bodrus or 15 ranks of any other skill to become a fighter. Some people get Bodrus but you don't have to.

Fighters shouldn't get Bodrus though, right? And I don't think it's 15 for anything else. My friend got 10 spiritus and then got her fighter badge. No bodrus. No 15. Dunno though.

Lex

01-04-2002, 09:11 AM

about Bodrus...

Fighters don't need to ever train it, true. Some people do though - it's true! Just ask around, it is actually happening as we speak. Archemar thought it was mandatory, I mentioned that you can train it, but you don't have to.

Evus is a little better than Bodrus, and since most fighters will train non-fighting skills anyway, it's more efficient to get something like 10 Troilus and then train Evus, but there's no rule that says the most efficient route is what you *should* do :)

Lex

Emma

01-04-2002, 10:07 AM

The myth that Bodrus is required is pervasive. When I first arrived in the lands I was pretty much escorted to Master Bodrus by several high ranking and very knowledgable exiles, and told that I needed to train with him if I wished to become a fighter.

So, I have my 10 ranks of Bodrus. Of course at this point in time I wish it were 10 ranks of troilus training, but at the time I trained it I think it was considerably more useful than troilus. Bodrus's training is certainly a waste on a newly minted Zo, but for a fen like me, Bodrus wasn't such a raw deal. I got a little more buff in my first few ranks and it probably saved me from falling due to stupidity more times than I realized.

Emma

Originally posted by Drablak
Lex: I did not know about the 15 ranks of other trainers, but you can get 10 ranks of troilus and become a fighter, which is way more useful than bodrus for a fighter and a good investment for anyone.

That's what I'd do, but YMMV.

Drablak

Nunul

01-04-2002, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by Emma
The myth that Bodrus is required is pervasive. When I first arrived in the lands I was pretty much escorted to Master Bodrus by several high ranking and very knowledgable exiles, and told that I needed to train with him if I wished to become a fighter.

Same happenned to me Emma.
I was exiled in the 130 storm range and was likewise escorted by my elders to Mr Bodrus.
I also wish if this has been changed, that I had 10 more Troilus.

-Nunul

Kiriel

01-04-2002, 10:49 AM

Happened to me as well in the storm of v117. I think a lot of experienced exiles don't know that other trainers are an option for fighters. I wished I'd known so I could have trained something more useful, but it's not that huge a deal.

Delirium

01-04-2002, 02:07 PM

I know I saw several websites that said you needed 10 bodrus to be a fighter back when I started to clan. Perhaps we should go looking for such web sites, and, in the interest of helping newbies, let the authors of the sites know they are in error (if they have not been fixed since 3 puddle years ago)?

Lex

01-04-2002, 02:34 PM

I agree, Del. The trouble is some of these sites are "all but forgotten". I too, was under the impression Bodrus was needed until after I became a fighter. And it was from what I read on a scroll, not info given to me by a player in the game.

However, before I chose a profession, I was told by 4 or 5 people that Bodrus is good for anyone, so get some of that. I didn't even know that Spiritus helped non-healers until I was 1/2 way to 2nd circle!

Lex

Aerin

01-04-2002, 06:14 PM

All this talk the sad mis-information about needing Bodrus to be made a fighter has got me thinking...Am I the only exilile who landed without knowing what profession I wanted to go into?

Honestly, when I showed up I didn't know what I wanted to be. Is that really so rare? I trained Bodrus for the first six ranks or so because it seemed the most immediately useful of the three trainers I knew about at first... it was easier to grasp what he'd do for me than what Spiritus or Mentus would do. (Seems we're still pretty in the dark about Mentus :P) If I'd become a mystic, which I was very tempted to do after the about the 10th person told me not to, those ranks would not have been "wasted". I'd say Bodrus is a fine trainer for the undecided newbie, at least you know what you're getting.

Lex

01-04-2002, 07:27 PM

I agree, Aerin. I trained Bodrus when I didn't know what profession I was going to be. It took me about 1 OOC week to decide. By that time I think I had plenty of Bodrus, enough to get a dagger right away.

Lex

Clio

01-04-2002, 09:33 PM

Well, it's not that rare. I still don't know what profession I will choose and I've been here long enough for that statement to make me blush. I can't imagine I'm all that out of the ordinary. Unlike so many other decisions, the professional track is so horribly final -- certainly there must be other exiles out there who have commitment problems.[;)]

For what it's worth, I'm trying to set a deadline for myself to decide. On an intellectual level I have realized that limbo is considerably more unpleasant than commitment. If I can just convince my heart perhaps the shutting of doors won't feel so painful.

Best regards,
Clio

Originally posted by Aerin
All this talk the sad mis-information about needing Bodrus to be made a fighter has got me thinking...Am I the only exilile who landed without knowing what profession I wanted to go into?

Honestly, when I showed up I didn't know what I wanted to be. Is that really so rare? --snip--

Kiriel

01-05-2002, 01:37 AM

You could always become a professional non-professional like several other fine exiles (WorldWalker comes to mind). I say there's no good reason to rush a choice if you're not sure, it's far more painful to undo later than it is to wait longer to be sure.

Personally, I didn't know when I arrived what I should be, but I decided to go with fighter because it seemed the simplest approach. Although healers get a lot more help early on in life (getting invited to more interesting places and passing tests faster), it's easier to pick up the basics of being a fighter when you're fairly new. For one thing, switching between moonstone and weapon all the time is a pain, and very difficult for newcomers to do efficiently. So I think being a fighter was the right decision for me- it allowed me to adjust gradually to being an exile. If I had delayed my decision for a few weeks however, I might not have ended up a fighter, because I would have had a better idea what being a healer was like (that said, I have a healer now too, having both is optimal :)

Sargon

01-05-2002, 06:45 AM

It took me about 0.001 seconds to decide what profession I want to learn in Puddleby. :) [I've read some scrolls before I actually stranded at the docks] And a profession often forgotten by many (even the most experienced ones in the lands!) is the profession of the librarian. They usually stay in the libraries all day long and rarely see the day light though. So it's not for everyone! But for me it's nice to know that the seats and sleeping places in the library are clean from dust when I return to them to get some rest after a long day. WoD itself also has two librarians, so the profession is not _that_ uncommon as some suspect.

I like your scrolls, Clio! But! Could you try to make the pictures a bit smaller in size? (I don't mean the size in pixels, but the size in kb)

Sargon

Konoko

01-05-2002, 06:49 AM

You better watch it Sargon! :)
I'll send you and Sinan each to different rooms in the library. No more snuggling! I have that power... :)

Sargon

01-05-2002, 06:56 AM

Eeep!!!! Please don't do that, Konoko!! :(( /action looks worried!
/ponder Shoot! And I wanted to be more subtle this time... guess it didn't work!

Karkras

01-05-2002, 09:54 AM

I will admit, I was blessed with strength of purpose, and knew immediately (based on my history and demeanor) that the "fighter" profession was my path. Even so, I was mislead and trained Bodrus 15 times before I had the wisdom to switch to Evus.

The fact is, the temple trainers are not useful for fighters. Every rank that you wait before you make the decision to become a fighter hurts you professionally. It denies you the advanced training the Guild offers you, and once you do make the decision, you forever regret the time you "wasted" waiting. It's like trying to move dirt with a spoon instead of a shovel.

That is not to say that there are no redeeming factors to pre-guild training choices. A healthy dose of Troilus, or some time in the Language School, or some skill in Skea, are no detriment to a future as warrior and protector.

Konoko

01-05-2002, 10:01 AM

No worries Sargon! I wouldn't do that to you and Sinan...

I have 10 bodrus. I had heard you needed like 10 body before becoming a fighter. That kinda makes sense when you first start. You walk into the town hall and see the 3 trainers. Body is the logical trainer to become a fighter.

On a side note, I failed the 3rd circle test again. But I did notice progress with the whiffing of the rage. I have 138 detha. I thought I was closer to 150 but I guess not. Unfortunately, I got trapped in the corner and they got some free hits on me.

I'll just get some more atkus and regia to keep the swings and I should be in good shape

Konoko

Drablak

01-05-2002, 10:25 AM

All these discussions of "wasted" ranks trained with (mostly) Master Bodrus have me wondering at something.

As I understand it master Bodrus trains a set of skills (n% of Swengus, etc.). When a "exile" becomes a "fighter" after training 10 or more ranks of Bodrus s/he starts with those skills. When s/he then trains with Evus, for example, those 10 ranks must add up to those Evus will give.

So, unless I miss something, there are basically only 2 things that may be wasted here: first the ratio of skills given by Bodrus may not be the best one, and may not be as good as Evus. Second, Bodrus does not give you the "extra" bonus that mixed trainers like Eva/Evus give, so you loose those bonuses.

But do you, really, loose those bonuses? There are no unprofessionned trainers that give bonuses such as Eva/Evus, so it is not (was not) an option. So, if you trained Troilus instead of Bodrus, for instance, you would end up with 10 ranks worth of skills, the same as with Bodrus.

So there is really one thing that you "waste" by training Bodrus and that is a (possibly) more optimum ratio of skills.

UNLESS...
Unless the ranks given by Bodrus do not add up to those other fighter trainers give. Which would really disturb me. That would mean that similar skills given by different trainers don't add up.

Of course I may be missing something here.

Drablak

Lex

01-05-2002, 10:43 AM

Bodrus emphasizes different skills than Evus, but I don't know for sure that they add up to 1.00 ranks. You may get a bonus with Bodrus too, so who knows if it's really that bad to train it. I know that I hit the 100 rank mark with Evus and Bodrus at almost the exact same time - not from training either, but from training their "parts".

Hidden

01-05-2002, 10:52 AM

The ranks on Bodrus really are wasted because of the bonus. Here's an example, let's say that every fighter wants at least 35 Troilus, alright? Now, let's say newbie A goes the Bodrus route to becoming a fighter and gets:

10 Bodrus,
<becomes a fighter>
50 Evus,
35 Troilus

Now let's say Newbie B goes the other route:

10 Troilus
<becomes a fighter>
60 Evus
25 Troilus

They both have trained the same number of ranks, but Newbie B is 2 ahead. Not a huge difference, by any means, but small differenecs early on can add up to quite a lot at the end. I admit, with my first fighter back in 117 I was still under the impression that Bodrus was required. I didn't learn the real way things worked until I started a 2nd fighter, and gave him 5 ranks of dwarfish and 5 of thoom, and he was accepted into the Fighter's guild. There seem to be lots of myths like this flying around, and chances are you aren't going to get a response from the average dead CL site. Therefore, the best route is to gently correct anyone you find misinformed.

It's a tiring, thankless job, but somebody's gotta do it!

Karkras

01-05-2002, 10:56 AM

You may have a point, Drablak, if we can assume that a Bodrus rank has a proportionally lower "weight" than an Evus rank (when it comes to gaining experience from creatures fought).

Whatever the difference in skill ratios between the training Evus provides and Bodrus provides, the following fact is true:

An exile, after training 100 times with Bodrus, will hear from Bodrus, "There is nothing I can teach you."

However, a fighter will hear the same thing from Bodrus after training only ~60 times with Evus.

The argument that nothing is lost because Evus is not an option during pre-guild training is specious; an exile who plans on becoming a fighter can choose to not train Bodrus. So long as that exile plans to train Troilus, Language, or Skea some time in the future, those ranks would have exactly the same weight before or after guild entry.

One might even say, that since Language and Skea ranks are known to have a lower "slaughter weight," then Bodrus would be an even greater liability to a fighter who chooses him as a pre-guild trainer.

Ayella

01-05-2002, 07:14 PM

I was reading this ('tis very informative) and decided to post on it.

About mentus...*quacks* I do not like him at all. The promises of no wear on your sunstone are silly. I have 20 mentus and my sunstone wears! Of course...I do talk a lot... but the Mentus should fix that! *harumphs*

Mayhaps Winds of Dawn could make a scroll for brand new exiles warning them of the choices they will make? That if they want to become a fighter, ignore the local myth that bodrus is required? That mentus is a quack... and that Spiritus is a big help?

-- Also... can anybody answer this question for me? I was out hunting in the NWF when I happened upon a Zerk. I decided to risk it and I walked up to it and let it hit me. *Whiff*....*Whiff* Whooo! I killed that mighty zerk with but one hit to myself. Later, I came upon a zerk in the SF and it creamed me in about four hits. And yet another hurt me on DI. Why was I able to brick the first and not the others? [:)] Tan'ki.

Konoko

01-05-2002, 07:27 PM

Hi Ayella
Welcome to the forum!

The reason you came across an easier zerk and then some hard ones is that the monsters on the isles have varying strengths.

Say you're able to kill a bolok in a few hits and it only hits you once or twice. Then a few minutes later comes a "super" bolok that's much tougher and almost kills you. It's random. That's why the first zerk you found was easier than the last 2.

Supposedly in the circle tests the monsters are not random but are all one strength. That way someone doesn't luck out and get a real easy rage for instance. Or a super rage (which would suck!)

Konoko

Clio

01-05-2002, 09:09 PM

No sooner said than done. (Ok, well, it took me a little while to implement the changes, but I acted on it as soon as I could. [:p]) I have converted all the images on my scrolls to a format that requires less space. I hope that helps, and thanks for the tip - it was a great suggestion. Thanks for the positive feedback as well.

Best regards,
Clio

Originally posted by Sargon

I like your scrolls, Clio! But! Could you try to make the pictures a bit smaller in size? (I don't mean the size in pixels, but the size in kb)

Sargon

Lex

01-05-2002, 11:35 PM

Ayella:

There is a very narrow range in which Atkus is "enough" to hit something. For example, with health, if a zerk has twice as much as the one before, you'll have to hit it about twice as much as the one before. But with Atkus, 10 ranks can be the difference between hitting 1/5 of the time and 3/5 of the time. The first zerk you described probably just had low Atkus.

I know for me, there are some rages I can't hit, some I can't brick, and some the I can't do either, because I am right on the edge of that ability.

Now, throw luck into the mix and it's very easy to see why something like this would happen. Meaning something that has a 20% chance of hitting you might get unlucky and hit you 1 time out of 20 swings.

Lex

Sargon

01-06-2002, 05:35 AM

Ayella wrote:

About mentus...*quacks* I do not like him at all. The promises of no wear on your sunstone are silly. I have 20 mentus and my sunstone wears! Of course...I do talk a lot... but the Mentus should fix that! *harumphs*

It would need quite some time to proof such promises, Ayella. In my case (about 20 Mentus), my sunstone wore down after 2 zodiacs, while it lasted 4 full years afterwards. (sunstone wore down 10 mins after New Year.. good omen, huh!? :) And I'd say that I use it pretty often to find fallen exiles, also lots of public sunstone messages. (same can happen with Loovma, well ok a chain prolly won't last 4 full years, but you get the idea :))

Sargon

Drablak

01-06-2002, 07:29 AM

Originally posted by Lex

But with Atkus, 10 ranks can be the difference between hitting 1/5 of the time and 3/5 of the time.

[:)] And that is why even an apprentice's Akea boost may make the difference between victory and disaster!! [:)]

Sorry, just couldn't resist [:D]

Drablak

Ayella

01-06-2002, 07:32 AM

So...In the third circle test, which would the zerk be more like? The DI zerk, or the NWF zerk? Low atkus, high atkus?

Edited to ask Drablak if he would be free right before I take my test...[;)]

Drablak

01-06-2002, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by Sargon
In my case (about 20 Mentus), my sunstone wore down after 2 zodiacs, while it lasted 4 full years afterwards.

Sargon

Exactly Sargon, and your Loovma Geer analogy is very good. Even someone like Mirth, who has a Mentus ledger, will see his sunstone wear eventually. For another analogy, think of a newby luck-hitting a rage for example. Even people that eat sensibly, sleep enough, exercise regularly and make every effort to take care of their health, fall sick once in a while! It doesn't mean you should not try to live a healthy life. [:)]

Mentus is great, if people had more they'd understand why. [:D]
Drablak