I'm curious what opinions people have about the whole "mystic impersonation" thing and the sabotage via court of the Full Moon Orga Camp Raid (FMOCR). I'm still trying to decide what I think about mystic politics, and I'd like to hear other opinions on that. On the other hand, my mind is pretty much made up that using the court system to kill a FMOCR is really wrong.

I wrote a rather long entry, summarizing the story and offering some opinions in my journal, if you are interested. But here seems to be a much better place for discussion than my tag board.

Just to offer up some other perspectives...

Aravir has provided his thoughts on the events that transpired, along with three transcripts on his scrolls:

http://www.free-conversant.com/aravir/348

Xel and Neige have also provided scrolls with their opinions and accounts of the fmocr:

http://xel.puddleby.info/report.html
http://neige.pucks.org/trial/index.html

-Lundar

Thanks for the links, Lundar! It's good to see some different perspectives, but I will say this about Neige's statements: I testified in a trial against Neige that Neige's primary motivation was to help his ability to be promoted from JM to FM. I did not say Neige is a selfish person. I simply repeated what Neige himself told me was his primary motivation, that to add credibility to Manticore would hinder the ability of other JM's like himself to be promoted.

I am left to wonder: If the mystic council policy were that promotion was dependent upon individual merit rather than having anything to do with the status of other FM's like Manticore, would Neige have still felt passionately enough to bring his case? If Manticore didn't threaten Neige's ability to promote, would he have brought the same case with the same timing and the same passion? I do not think so, and for that reason among others, I call into question his use of the court system.

As for us having plenty of time to come to testify and then return to OC4, I have serious doubts that this is plausible. Our group of irregulars was not a well-oiled machine, able to move briskly in and out of orga camps. As it was, our fast-as-possible retreat took over half an hour and very nearly failed in OC2. Had Neige brought his lawsuit a full puddleday before the raid commenced or something along those lines, then I don't think any of us would've had a problem with timing. Neige says we had time for the legal process to work properly and to defeat the orga. I say his arguments show a level of rationalization that is just as desperate as his poorly thought-out use of the court system. [Since I wrote this paragraph originally, Neige has edited his account to omit his original claim that we had plenty of time to participate in the trial and still finish the FMOCR successfully.]

There is a case to make against legitimizing Manticore, and Neige and the others who support him should continue to make it. The case in favor of a last-minute sabotage of a FMOCR via the court system is far weaker and should not be linked to the fundamental argument over spirits, mystics and clickers. Unfortunately, Neige has guaranteed that it forever will be.

There's a lot of nasty things regarding this whole controversy. Personally, I was super pissed that I wasted tons of time there all for nothing, but I suppose its all in the past and just gotta put it there, I suppose.

However, there is still something that I find really disturbing. It seems that the majority of the public (Outside of us that were doing FMOCR) Didn't even seem to care that dozens of exiles just had their time WASTED by this court case that made the whole FMOCR worthless. I just find this downright horrid. How can the majority of the public not give a damn that a whole bunch were in the OCs for two+ hours only for it all to be wasted? They seem believe that whatever reason Neige had for this idiotic use of the court system, apparently it justified putting a lot of exiles lives in jeopardy.

Where does it stop? Do we have to put all of them in a similar situation just so that they can understand what the hell happened?

I personally do not want to get into mystic business, becuase I could care less. Let them do whatever they have to do. But when you start penalizing the public, and saying that it is all justified. Then there's a damn problem right there.

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--------------------
-Anaeka

I read Aravir's and Xel's accounts of what happened. Neige's scroll is blank.

I was at the FMOCR. I knew that Manticore was not being clicked by his original PWC but it didn't matter to me. I was helping a Mystic (As I have done on many many occasions, in many different places).

I'm afraid that what Neige did, with the support and encouragement of Zorton and Soulmaster, has truly soured me on Mystics for a long time to come. I will no longer help Mystics as I have done in the past, I will no longer share with a Full Mystic when I enter the lands. On Saturday, the day before the FMOCR, the KI group took Neige to KI to do Scrystall mapping of the island. I shake my head when I think of all that Puddleby has done to help Mystics and then look at how they treat each other, and knowingly waste the time of so many people.

These are my questions:

Why was it a Journeyman Mystic who sued Manticore if it was an issue of the Mystic Council?
Why didn't Zorton or Soulmaster take Manticore to court instead of leaving it to a JM?
Why is it all of the Mystics involved are Darkhorse Clan members?
Does the Darkhorse Clan support these actions?
Will doing this get Neige a promotion to FM?
Who was Manticore stealing the Stone from? Certainly not a Mystic, because no other Mystic bothered to show up to the raid.
Should all Mystics be sued for theft when they try to obtain a Stone? They are stealing from the Orga, afterall.

Will my attitude toward Mystics soften? I'm sure it will, in time. For now I would prefer to distance myself from them. I have a bad taste in my mouth.

__________________
"Every hero has flaws. It's part of what makes them heroes."
"Oh, and what is your flaw?"
"I'm no hero."

First of all, let me try to make this absolutely clear: Students are promoted when they are ready, based on their indivisual merit. I have no idea why people have got it into their heads that Manticore is hindering anyone's progress-- this is completely false.

On the issue of the fmocr, I agree that the actions taken by Neige were rash and ill-timed. I don't think anyone thinks that wasting several hours of a group's time is a good thing to do. Personally, I have learned from past raids that this sort of confrontation on the day of the fullmoon is a Bad Thing, and ends up wasting everyone's time and creating ill will. Neige was wrong to oppose Manticore how he did, when he did.

That being said, I agree with Neige's sentiments. Manticore is an abomination, beyond being a mere "pocket mystic." Full Mystics are not mere chaperones, which ferry people to 'Noth and teleport people to the foothills. They are also the leaders of the Mystic Guild. How would bards feel if a Bard Master were bought and sold, or if the Grandmaster of the Puddleby Monatery were sold to some clicker who didn't give a damn about monks?

Finally, please don't lump all mystics together. We all belong to the same Guild, true, but that doesn't mean we all agree upon every single issue. If Zaroff decided to waste my time, should I stop helping all fighters? If Outcast were to harass me, should I then stop sharing with all healers? You're free to do whatever you choose, of course, but please be reasonable.

-Lundar

I also have no idea why anyone thinks Manticore's status in any way should affect whether Neige or any other JM gets promoted. Of course, there's the part of the jury conversation where Jo Ma'ril tells Wangah Rah: "Manticore is the reason you aren't being promoted." Was this meant to be a joke? Still trying to figure that one out while also trying to figure out why Jo is willing to use Selucreh to go into Noth but actively oppose using Manticore to get a stone. It boggles my simple mind.

I wasn't at the raid myself, so I can't claim to know everything about what happened, but I guess I'll throw in my two cents. Wow, this turned out to be a rant and a half, so feel free to skip it.

I'm no mystic. I'm a bard. However, there are some parallels beween the bards' guild and the mystics' guild, as far as I know, so maybe I can use an a analogy to show what I mean. If you aren't interested, just skip the background.

[Background]
It takes (or took, at least) a long time to become a bard. You have to write songs, learn music theory (if you don't know it already), and endure an irritating stint as a quester. Believe it or not, the Bard Council knows that this happens, and they (we?) know that aspiring bards hate the quester period. However, the structure stays the way it is. There is a VERY good reason for this.

Bards are ridiculously powerful. I could drive people away from town centre by playing annoying songs over and over. I could distract our slower-witted friends by playing during dangerous situations. (ooc: Hell, I could even crash everyone around me on a whim, if I wished)

So, how come I don't? It's quite simple: I worked hard to be a bard, and I'm not going to throw it away to pull some cheap tricks. And I was allowed to become a bard because I had proved to a group of other bards that not only could I write decent songs, but also that I would uphold the standards of conduct of the guild. There is a lot more to being a bard than just writing songs. You have to know what to play when, and what not to play. Playing Rakshasa's "The Duck" for a group of friends when they ask: Good! Playing "The Duck" in town square, surrounded by random people who haven't asked for it: Bad!

So, basically, to get back to the issue at hand, I picture a situation in which a bard suddenly changes, almost as though they were an entirely new person. Whether I would know this new guiding spirit or not, a few facts exist: This new person is NOT the old person. This new spirit has not guided the bard through the quester period, and auditions. Having shared experiences like those are what foster a sense of community among bards. It really is more than just playing songs on demand. I personally would not treat this person as a true bard, because they weren't a true member of the bard community. And if this changed person was a bard master, with authority over other bards, I would especially dissaprove of it.

Now, I consider a situation in which someone who didn't go through a true audition, but somehow made quester (there's a few people like that floating around), was in a position to become a full bard by getting another instrument, but I could stop them somehow. In this situation, I think I would try to stop that person, no matter how many other people were inconvenienced in the process. The reason for this is simple: Being a bard gives you plenty of tools perfect for snerting, and the only reason Puddleby still has bards is that we've managed to prevent any snerts from getting in. A few bards have toed the line a few times, but we've done a good job. And if I could prevent a possible snert from getting in, I would do what I could to do so. After all, look what happened to the Hall of Chivalry after a few less-than-honourable people got in. What's the going rate for knighthood, now? 2000 coins?

[/background]

Anyway, my outlook on the whole Neige-Manticore trial thing is this: the timing was unfortunate but most likely necessary. I know many people say Neige could have sued beforehand or after, but neither would have had the effect of preventing Manticore from getting the stone. Neige et al. felt that Manticore hadn't proved himself enough to merit getting a stone, and took the necessary action. Personally, I think people are blowing the whole thing was out of proportion. 2 ooc hours really isn't that much time. HWC spent 4 hours waiting for a late train on his way to college, and made less fuss than some of the people involved in this. There's more to life than getting the most you can in the least amount of time possible. Isn't the struggle more important than the reward? Personally, I've done a few FMOCRs, and I have more fun during the actual battles than I do seeing someone with a stone. Anyway, yeah. That's my rant for the day. Sorry for it being so long.

Roc with the Slyphonics!
Coriakin

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"Aaaaah! Stop following me! The closer you get, the faster I'm becoming a nun!" - Aoyama Motoko (From Love Hina manga, by Ken Akamatsu)

Hello,

I share Lundar's view, although my views differ on some points. Manticore truly is an insult to active Mystics, and frankly him getting a stone would have made things much worse. I agree such a stone could help groups of peoples to have more fun (If used more wisely than to avoid trees on KI), but not by using a mere pocket Mystic who you'd trash after use.

This said, I supported Neige and his actions and will still do so, the timing was awful but it was a need to prevent such an abuse to happen. Sorry if it wasted some peoples time.

To reply to you Koric, I see you are really good at twisting things, and defending a side yet not getting yourself too involved to keep the graces of another. You really well turned the arguments to your own advantage... Or to fit your posture.

Fist, to repeat what Lundar said, it'd be terrible from you to judge all Mystics for an action you disagree with. Neige acted by his own will, not to promote himself or gain favors, and surely was backed up by many peoples, including Mystics. You can't put everyone in the same bag just because you are mad at a few.

Zorton backed up Neige, and it was not to him to take the front as it was Neige's action. Period.

As for DH, I cannot speak for it, though it's not some DH ran action I'm afraid you may still be a bit over reacting from what hapenned.

Theft was as Manticore is nothing but a Full Mystic driven by a new PWC who did *nothing* to obtain this status, yet claims the right to use Full Mystic tools...

Most peoples who attended to this event, me the first, are still a bit "angry" or overreacting, but please think twice and don't judge so hastily. Neige's action was a last day solution, but it was not intended to create such a shitstorm.

I'm speaking for myself here, curse me if you wish, but I stand for what I value, as most of you do and I lost many friends last night... Sadly.

Dreemi and HWC

Hi. I'm afraid this post will be long.

From what I understand, mystics have repeatedly tried to talk to Manticore long before the raid -- he has heard objections to his clicker enjoying the training of a full mystic. From their perspective, him going into the power room to get a stone is akin to theft and abuse because he hasn't earned the right to use the stone.

There also was some attempt made to ask prominent members of the FMOCR not to help Manticore according to the accounts I've read and the visionstones I've seen. Because they couldn't stop Manticore from getting the stone, they did the only thing they felt they could -- sue him out of the raid.

While it could be argued that greater objections should have been raised, I think they did the right thing in suing him. I'll explain why below.

Some argue that you can't be opposed to "pocket mystics" unless you are opposed to all transferred characters. This POV, however, fails to account for the special nature of the mystic class.

Mystics are different from other classes. Like bards that Cori mentioned, their tests that have nothing to do with ranks. In fact, they get to earn their ranks after passing their tests. There is enculturation in a political system (intentionally built into the class by the GM who created it.) There's a series of relationships that are created in the process of becoming a full mystic, unlike healers or fighters. No other class has that requirement --its one of the things that sets the mystic class apart. It requires of the clicker that they follow the guidance and dictates of the mystic council. Whether you agree or disagree with the merits of this system, this is how the class was designed. All of this adds up to making a full mystic character very different than a high level fighter or healer. They are far more than simply the sum of their skills. Hence, transferring a mystic character is quite different from transferring a healer or a fighter.

Regretably, there is no in-game way to demote a mystic. My personal suggestion would be that FM's cannot be transferred as FMs, given the special requirements of the class. But until that happens, I think the actions of Neige and Zorton are justified.

If the raid members should be mad at anyone, it should be Manticore/Hidden for failing to disclose he's not a full mystic. In a way tho', it makes sense that he didn't disclose it. He didn't go through the process of becoming a full Mystic, and he really doesn't understand what the class is about. In essence, his being able to use FM powers are a bug.

Neige just stopped a bug from being further exploited.

__________________
"If I can't dance, I don't want to be
part of your revolution" -- Emma
Goldlight

50 points to Xel for the only unbiased report on the subject.


The mystic guild is, as you have said, different. If I don't like Outcast, as a 4th circle healer, I can do nothing to prevent a lower one from advancing. You, on the other hand, do have that power. The mystic guild is controlled, unlike either of the other ones, and therefore enjoys special power, and special responsibility. If you people were irresponsible enough to promote a Mystic that would put himself in the wrong hands, then I say it's your tough shit to chew, not the rest of the town's. Personally, I've never liked the mystic guild, and when you behave like little children, stabbing each other in the back (When one of your primary guidelines is "Help others who practice the craft"), it does nothing to increase your support.

What Neige did was absolutely abhorrent and reprehensible, and he and Zorton (who was seen previously counciling him on what to do) will feel the backlash from their actions for a LONG time. I've heard that there are plans being made to prevent Zorton from ever getting an orga stone again, through the same tactics he developed. Personally, I'll have no part in such petty bickering, but it seems like turnabout is indeed fair play.

__________________
It burns when I ruminate :(

Indeed, what makes a Mystic?

So, PWC Manticore may or may not have been the original PWC Manticore. This fact is taken as truth yet I have seen no proof one way or the other. Yet, for this post I'll follow this assumption and say that the current Manticore is not the original.

So, Manticore hasn't gone through the puzzles we have to solve or the tasks his mentor gave him or the endless hours sitting in town feeling like crap while you're trying to build up a reputation while being called names. Does that make Manticore not a Mystic? Heck, if PWC has been around long enough he probably already knows where the Mystic puzzles are and how to solve them. They really aren't that tough. The tasks I was given aren't that tough either and I don't think I'm any better or wiser because I completed them. I think anyone could complete them if given enough patience and hard work. As to the latter, everyone has felt like crap when starting out and trying to find a niche to fit, friends to hunt with, and ways to be useful and help others. Some go through this process quickly while it takes others a bit longer. So this idea that Mystics go through this harrowing process to get where they are is a bit funny to me.

So PWC now has a powerful Mystic with useful skills and he can either be selfish or selfless. What as PWC done? He helped 8 mystics get to Kizmia's Island for the Ethereal Trainer. He organized a FMOCR to take a powerful stone out of the Orga's hands and to use it for the betterment of Puddleby. What else has he done for the betterment of others? What else could he do for the betterment of others?

So because PWC isn't the same and because you think Manticore is a throwaway character (which is not backed up by facts either) you think it's okay to both punish those exiles who helped with the FMOCR and exiles in general? You think it's okay to let the Orga keep the powerful stone to do whatever evil they intend to do with it? The Orga are our enemy and by stopping Manticore from getting the stone you have strengthened the enemy. Indeed, I will even go so far as to say that those who support Neige's courtcase are traitors.

There are other ways to handle disputes like the one with Manticore and you chose the absolute worst way to handle it.

__________________
Puddleby Mailbox: #2072
Himitsu's Journey, my adventures

Liking Cheese. Duh.

*post edited so my ass stays out of this fight.*

The report in my notebook is from an IC perspective, and Aravir obviously has a strong opinion there.

However, PWC Aravir doesn't have a particularly strong opinion on the OOC issues, so I thought I'd say something about them as well.

It seems to me that the OOC arguement is really between the Mystic Council and Delta Tao. The existing FMs don't want FM characters to be transferred (and I would hope they feel the same way about AM and JM characters), but Delta Tao currently allows characters to be transferred. Presumably the FMs have made their case to DT already, and will continue to do so, but the fact is that DT makes the rules.

It might be possible to find an OOC resolution in the mean time. Unfortunately, reciting "Manticore is not a full mystic" isn't doing any good. Of course he's a full mystic, the whole point is that some people feel he shouldn't be! Here's a suggestion... how about all the people who object to PWC Hidden buying Manticore put some money in a pool and offer to buy the character themselves? I don't know if Hidden would go for it, but it would work within the existing system.

I think it might also be an interesting IC story if it could stay that way. I've talked to several mystics who said "Manticore is insane." That's a good start! Unfortunately, the insanity story doesn't seem to have any depth to it--people go straight from there to OOC issues. Why not expand on it? Explain to other exiles why he's dangerously insane and doesn't deserve a stone!

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Aravir Eldanar

There are two key issues here that are being intertwined but in my opinion are really quite separate.

1. Does Manticore still qualify to be treated as a full mystic?
2. Was it appropriate for Neige to use the court system to subvert the efforts of exiles to achieve a teleportation stone for Manticore?

First I will address #2. In my opinion, Neige's actions were both an extreme abuse of the courts and a huge slap in the face to all exiles involved in FMOCR. Regardless of #1, court cases should not be used as a time bomb to ruin the work of exiles. This sets a dangerous precedent and I don't believe the ends justify the means. There are so many better ways to have handled the situation and even if there weren't, that doesn't make timing the court case to interfere appropriate. If the court case had been held at any other time (and there was plenty of opportunity beforehand) then it would have been possible to treat the case on its merits, but instead Manticore was deprived a reasonable opportunity to defend himself, and the chance at having a more balanced jury, since the folks at the FMOCR had to avoid jury duty to continue their work while those biased against Manticore were prepared and available to be called.

In this case, it's my opinion that a reasonable course of action for Neige would have been to publicly decry the FMOCR. There have been some claims that if more folks at the FMOCR had known about Manticore's past, that they would have refused to help. It's possible this is the case, but yet Neige didn't even try to tell them- not one public sunstone message to discourage the raid, even though it was publicized over a week ahead of time and Neige and Zorton were around that day since before the raid began. In my opinion it is not Manticore's job to brief everyone at an FMOCR about his past- it was explained to most folks that there was opposition from the mystic council to his acquiring a stone, and anyone who asked for details was given them to my knowledge. In the past it has been that any mystic who could acquire the necessary support to achieve a stone via FMOCR has earned their stone- Manticore did the work to earn the support, and Neige was free to discourage his supporters publicly from participating. Using the court to subvert the work of folks who chose to help was not acceptable.

Now regarding #1, whether Manticore qualifies to be treated as a full mystic- that is the case of OOC issues reflecting upon IC events. In my opinion, although the change of clicker OOC does pose a problem, I don't think that this means that Manticore in his new incarnation is somehow incapable of being a good mystic. As far as I know, nobody's given him a chance to even try, and yet Manticore has done quite a bit of good work for the community. People object to his very existence but there are many other full mystics that people don't like and I don't think that makes them any less full mystics. In the OOC case, I think it really should be a choice DT should get to make- if they want mystics to be special, they should bump them to journeymen before transfer, or provide a mechanism by which the mystic guild can request a mystic be made journeyman if they have been transferred. The fact that the mystic guild currently as it stands can't remove full mystics makes it problematic, but they also provide no mechanism for a transferred person to prove themselves worthy again short of them demoting themselves (not sure if this is even possible without untraining) and hoping to be promoted again. I don't honestly believe that any transferred mystic who voluntarily did that would ever be promoted again by the guild because of their extreme prejudice in this matter, so I can't really say that it would be any more fair to Manticore to ask him to do this. I suggest that folks who don't like transferred mystics keep asking DT to provide a solution to the problem, and in the meantime at least give the mystics a chance to prove themselves inside the system instead of immediately treating them as a criminal.

Whether Manticore deserves a stone is particularly a touchy issue, because in my opinion, the stone is achieved by the FMOCR group, and they get to choose the mystic it goes to. Certainly the claim of theft was inaccurate since the stone did not belong to Neige or anyone else when Manticore tried to acquire it- unless he was talking about theft from the orga, which I don't believe Puddleby has considered a crime in the past (and if we do, let's have Zorton and Robin return their stones to the orga). In the past the stone has not appeared if a mystic the stone did not approve of came to claim it. Why not let the stone decide whether Manticore was deserving? Manticore has a ledger in the skill required for the stone- way more than any other mystic. He has also proven his willingness to use his skills for the good of Puddleby. In my opinion this makes him more deserving of the stone, not less, regardless of what changes the other mystics think he has undergone.

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Ye have enemies? Good, good- that means ye've stood up for something, sometime in thy life....

Neige's actions were rash and something I would have preferred not happen at this time. I will not say he was wrong. To acheive his goal of stopping Manticore, only a suit at the time he did would have worked. Suing earlier or later would not have prevented him from getting a stone. Those who think Zorton put him up to this are wrong. Zorton counseled him against doing it and served as witness only after he saw Neige would not be detered. I agree this was better than having Neige go it alone.

I am not concerned that people on the FMOCR were inconvenienced. Frankly, they should have known better. Not only did Neige ask them not to support Manticore, but many of them are regular readers of csmga, where the problem of Manticore has been discussed in the past. You should have known better. I'm disappointed that Manticore was able to generate that much support and I'm disappointed in who those people were. No one challenged him in the Orga Camp because we wanted to avoid the kind of arguments that people disliked so much in the past. No one thought that he could get enough to succeed.

The title of Mystic carries with it a great deal of responsibility. A great deal of training and evaluation goes into making a Mystic to ensure they are able to handle that resposibility. Manticore now has none of that training or evaluation. It's not simply an insult to what others have achieved. That's not really even important. He's not demonstrated he can handle the responsibility that comes with the power. I do not consider Manticore to be a Mystic and it is unlikely he ever will be.

Lastly, there is no relationship to the Dark Horse Clan. Dark Horse has a number of mystics and we tend to work together frequently. If you draw any 2 active mystics at random, there's a good chance they'll both be in Dark Horse, especially in our time slot.

Robin Greyhawk

I have heard not a single peep from any mystics besides Selucreh, who is, ironically, a pocket mystic much as Manticore is accused of being. I have no intent of relegating Manticore to pocket mystic duty, but if he is continually harassed whenever he is out of the library, that may be what he becomes.

I find it hard to believe that anyone who hasn't been actively shoving their head up their ass could not-know about Manticore's past. I am not responsible for the actions of the ignorant.

__________________
Nothing says "SHUT THE F@#% UP!" like a baseball bat to the head.

Since I'm not going to give up Manticore, and will eventually get an orga stone no matter what you say or do (ever heard of a preemptive lawsuit?), you could just work with me to ensure that Manticore becomes and stays a good and responsible Mystic. But then again, that's not in the style of the guild, is it? Of course not.

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Nothing says "SHUT THE F@#% UP!" like a baseball bat to the head.

Wanna know why I thought it was ok to use pocket mystics and now I turn about and say it's not? I'll tell you why.

First off, yes I've played a mystic before, and mystics don't advance by ranks. You put a new fighter in the library for 2 OOC years, he comes out and he could be 3rd, 4th, maybe even 5th circle. Put a new healer in the library for 2 OOC years, he comes out and is 4th circle pretty easily. Put a new mystic in the library for 2 OOC years, he's got a crapload of ranks but he's still an apprentice. Mystic advancement is _ENTIRELY BASED_ on the player's actions. Thus, when a mystic changes hands they are no longer qualified for whatever rank they've achieved.

Second, ever since I started organizing hunts (read: when I got strong enough) to noth, scarmis, and other mystic-required places, I noticed a big lack of mystic availabilty, and this pissed me off and soured me to full mystics as a whole. Moreover, I know several journeymen mystics who I feel are much better deserving of the title of full mystic than some current full mystics. So at the time, yeah, I'm all for getting into noth so I can hunt. I felt it wasn't fair that I should suffer because the mystic guild won't promote people.

Third, lately I've gained a lot of respect for full mystics (real ones!), especially Zorton, Robin, Sutai, and Valtrim. They've sacrificed a lot to help Yor and I explore the OOB and Foothills regions, and when they ask me for help, they get it.

What happened? Well, I spoke to several full mystic friends about why my journeymen friends weren't being promoted. I got various answers from various mystics, but they all agreed in one thing - The mystic guild is scared shitless about pocket mystics. It makes their job a joke. Why bother tipping Valtrim to open noth for you when you can have Thuja-bot Nyssa open for you and not ask for a tip? Why bother asking Robin to hold an orga stone for MONTHS at a time and essentially castrate his mystic abilities to one single thing, making his non-foothills clanning time very boring, when you can have Hiddencore teleport you to the foothills while he runs around with another character? Guess what, the mystic council isn't going to appoint a single journeyman mystic until either:

a) DT lets them demote full mystics who have been sold/transferred to other players.
b) The current pocket mystics set an example for future pocket mystics and stop doing what they're doing.



Actually that's YOUR shit to chew. The frustration of a dozen exiles at FMOCR at losing 2 hours worth of effort is jack compared to the frustration of 20+ journeymen mystics not being able to advance to full mystic because you think it's a good idea to _BUY_ your way into the mystic guild. So yeah, turnabout is fairplay, huh?

So for me, yeah it's pretty hypocritical to use a pocket mystic and then turn around and say "no, now it's not ok!". But I didn't know the reasons behind the lack of real live full mystics before, and now I do. And now you do too. You have a choice to say "hey it's ok to use pocket mystics, because we don't like the current full mystics" or you can say "look sorry, I'll untrain and start over, do the mystic bullshit and prove that I'm really worthy to be a full mystic". If Himitsu's right, what's the harm, huh? You should get promoted in no time if you're really that good, right?!

As for the timing, yeah that was pretty shitty. Neige asked me if I'd support him if he sued. I told him yes, but he'd better do it before FMOCR started. And as I was hunting during your raid, I told him if he plans to do sue, he'd better do it asap instead of waiting last minute. So, hey, I tried to make it less shitty, don't thank me all at once. ;)

In regards to using court as an OOC tool, I really hate it as well. But a month ago, I sent an email to HGM about certain people who abuse clan experience (you know who you are) big time - by using multiple throwaway characters and taking them out and then back into the library to reap the clan experience. Also, about people who run 2 accounts as healer bots to heal themselves instead of asking real healers to come heal them first. His response was basically "DT doesn't like it either, but people don't seem to mind all that much. If you really mind, sue them and see if people agree". So, I think Neige did the right thing, and letting Manticore go off would say to DT that we really don't give a shit about who plays who, and pocket mystics are great. Promote everybody and their sister, and let them give out their passwords so anyone can open noth! That'll make Full Mystic something to really strive for!

RE: The bkbombing and all that that's been going on, even more childish and sad, and it certainly doesn't help your position.

Fist:
* Why was it a Journeyman Mystic who sued Manticore if it was an issue of the Mystic Council?

Because Neige felt more strongly about it than Zorton, the only other full mystic on at the time, and was willing to take the heat. If Axell refused to heal you and you sued her, would you be willing to take the heat from _that_ lawsuit? I think a lot of people would be pretty pissed at you. :) It's not an easy thing to get up there and stand up for what you believe in.

* Why didn't Zorton or Soulmaster take Manticore to court instead of leaving it to a JM?

Soulmaster's a JM too, btw. See above.

* Why is it all of the Mystics involved are Darkhorse Clan members?

DH just has a high percentage of mystics. I betcha if Sutai wasn't on vacation he would be supportive of Neige too, then you could blame POS!

* Does the Darkhorse Clan support these actions?

Last I heard they were pretty upset about the timing, but supported their clanmate. I don't speak for them though.

* Will doing this get Neige a promotion to FM?

Anything but, it'll probably move him to the bottom of the list (where I'd assume he was already :))

* Who was Manticore stealing the Stone from? Certainly not a Mystic, because no other Mystic bothered to show up to the raid.

He wasn't stealing the stone, he just wasn't qualified to have one.

* Should all Mystics be sued for theft when they try to obtain a Stone? They are stealing from the Orga, afterall.

Yes, they should. We'll take it up in Orga Court after this. It's beyond the foothills, and only PMF has been there!

Honestly, there's nothing personal about all this, and I'm pretty offended at all the people taking sides and "withdrawing support". I just don't feel Hidden should be able to ride the back of someone's hard work while other mystics who work their butts off day in and day out to get promoted suffer. I like Hidden, Koric, and most everyone at that FMOCR, and I'm pretty hurt that you're all flipping out over this, bkboming people, calling names, etc. Stick to the matter at hand - does Manticore deserve an orga stone or not? Leave the name calling, bad karma bombing and whatnot to the PMF bashing!!! ;)

Seriously though, I find myself agreeing with Althea and Blitz, as I see their side of things more and more. Someone pinch me and check that hell hasn't frozen over. Thanks!

Althus wrote:

"The mystic guild is, as you have said, different. If I don't like Outcast, as a 4th circle healer, I can do nothing to prevent a lower one from advancing. You, on the other hand, do have that power. The mystic guild is controlled, unlike either of the other ones, and therefore enjoys special power, and special responsibility. If you people were irresponsible enough to promote a Mystic that would put himself in the wrong hands, then I say it's your tough shit to chew, not the rest of the town's."

To clarify, Manticore was promoted long before my time, when there were only two player Mystics, and Manticore was promoted with the support of two GM controlled Mystics. I don't see how I, or most others of my Guild, can be held accountable for the promotion of the original Manticore.

Mehan wrote:

"Fifth circle fighters are sold every day for real life money. I have a fighter, and I have worked hard to make her the fighter she is. If somebody sells their fifth circle fighter, is that not the same as selling a mystic?"

No it's not, as I and Coriakin and many others have pointed out.

-Lundar

Ironic that the only person I've ever heard this explanation from is a fighter. Kinda feels like the Guild's position of secrecy came back and bit them in the ass, eh? Perhaps if they were just a teeny bit more open about what's going on, situations like this wouldn't arise in the first place.


I have a better idea. From now, Manticore will be confined to the library, not coming out ever again until I have my own, earned, full Mystic character. It'll never happen, and so that character slot will be wasted for all time, but I'm too tired to argue anymore. It's not because I'm stupid, irresponsible, lazy or anything else like that. It's because it would be literally impossible for me to start a new character and not have everyone know who it was within days. A character like that would never, ever be promoted.


As well, doesn't Neige's loss in court and subsequent jailing prove that we don't like Neige and he should be banned from the game forever? No? Of course not. The court is essentially a meaningless harassment tool, and nothing more.

He who casts the first stone, eh? I've been getting constant bad karma since the FMOCR, just so you know that both sides are equally guilty of that.

__________________
Nothing says "SHUT THE F@#% UP!" like a baseball bat to the head.

Hey! I wrote "Liking Cheese!" but oh well. *sighs* It really is the same. Bards are sold, fighters are sold, and healers are sold. You just don't want to admit it. If you didn't know Manticore was sold, it wouldn't have mattered to you! What if Manticore was sold to somebody you really liked? Your real life best friend. Would you still feel so deeply about the happenings? I don't think you would : )


Eventually this whole conflict will fade into the past, and we will have learned nothing from it. All that will have come from it are disagreements, the loss of friends over a petty argument, and the alienation of people who tried to stand up for what they believed in on BOTH sides of the spectrum. Perhaps there is more we could learn from this, perhaps not.

__________________
The Plural of Zo, is Zo.

Everyone that was in the FMOCR seems to make "I wasted my time" the main point of their complaint. Is that really what you're upset about? At least be honest.

Lex

FYI:
I posted a pointer to this thread and a summary of my pov on the newsgroup.

Jo, there are worse things than agreeing with me, I'm sure :)

__________________
"If I can't dance, I don't want to be
part of your revolution" -- Emma
Goldlight

I think you're overreacting. What Neige did was execute good enough timing to stop Manticore from getting a stone. It's not the end of the world. There will be other FMOCR's. And if enough of Puddleby supports Manticore, I suppose he'll get one.

Lex